The Incarnation disproves Total Depravity and sin nature

@civic

Mark 6:5–6
“And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He wondered at their unbelief.”

This response of wonder on the part of Jesus to those in his home town Nazareth, is odd assuming Jesus knew all about total depravity:

I find it quite curious to read In another translation that Christ “marveled” because of their unbelief. It actually surprised and amazed him. This is different than what one would expect if the doctrine of Total Depravity were true. If it were true that fallen man is completely unable to believe without God giving him a unique grace to believe, then Christ would not have been surprised at all or amazed at their unbelief. He would have expected them not to believe until He Himself had decided that they should believe.

The fact that Jesus expressed surprise at the unbelief of his fellow citizens is a clear indication that Jesus wasn't into to total depravity and and neither am I.
 
@civic

Mark 6:5–6
“And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He wondered at their unbelief.”

This response of wonder on the part of Jesus to those in his home town Nazareth, is odd assuming Jesus knew all about total depravity:

I find it quite curious to read In another translation that Christ “marveled” because of their unbelief. It actually surprised and amazed him. This is different than what one would expect if the doctrine of Total Depravity were true. If it were true that fallen man is completely unable to believe without God giving him a unique grace to believe, then Christ would not have been surprised at all or amazed at their unbelief. He would have expected them not to believe until He Himself had decided that they should believe.

The fact that Jesus expressed surprise at the unbelief of his fellow citizens is a clear indication that Jesus wasn't into to total depravity and and neither am I.
Excellent points and they are true. So many things like you mentioned here in scripture goes against the doctrine of TD.
 
If it were true that fallen man is completely unable to believe without God giving him a unique grace to believe, then Christ would not have been surprised at all or amazed at their unbelief. He would have expected them not to believe until He Himself had decided that they should believe.

The fact that Jesus expressed surprise at the unbelief of his fellow citizens is a clear indication that Jesus wasn't into to total depravity and and neither am I.

This is what they call a "non sequitur," it does not logically follow.

The inherent holiness of human nature is not the only reason Christ would be surprised at a lack of positive response.

You see, since the beginning of this fallen race, humanity has always been trying secretly to take credit for God's grace.

Total inability/depravity does not, and never has taught, that God's grace is ineffectual in humans, so no good response can be expected.

Rather, we give credit to every good thing to God's grace, because we know intuitively we owe it all to Jesus.

Stephen did not rebuke them with "You always resist your own inherently good nature!"

No, he said you always resist the Holy Spirit, the grace of God.

Grace can be resisted—and that is a freewill choice.
 
Psalm of David 51:

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
Yes his mother was a sinner hence he was conceived in his mothers sin. He is not saying he was born a sinner. This verse actually goes against TD and original sin.

hope this helps !!!
 
Yes his mother was a sinner hence he was conceived in his mothers sin. He is not saying he was born a sinner. This verse actually goes against TD and original sin.

hope this helps !!!

I don't think this interpretation works actually.

First of all, if David was born during an immoral act, so what? Why does he need to mention it here? It has zero relevance or contextual relation to what he is saying.

Second of all, we have no other evidence his parents were in some kind of immoral or sinful relationship, so why should we just assume that; it would have been mentioned.

Overall, it is just people trying to get around the plain meaning of the text.

Look at the context of this passage and flow of thought:

4 Against You, You only, have I sinned, And done this evil in Your sight-- That You may be found just when You speak, And blameless when You judge.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom. (Ps. 51:4-6 NKJ)

Verse 4 is talking about DAVID's sin.

Verse 6 is talking about DAVID's sin.

But sandwiched in the middle David randomly wants to talk about someone ELSE'S sin that has no relation to his sin?

It's a biased and ad hoc eisegesis of the worst kind.

Let's not argue from "Calvinism man bad."
 
But how does that work since God had this to say about his creation?
God saw that it was good (Genesis 1:18)?
Well, since you ask...

It is usually accepted that the Satanic fall happened before or just after creation. We know it was early because the serpent arrived in the garden with sinful intent, already fallen and damned. The very good of Gen 1:31 then must include the evil angels of the satanic rebellion who were, at that time, being held in chains of darkness in Sheol, 2 Peter 2:4 For if GOD spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement.

It is not proven that very good refers to a moral state of being and not to GOD's purpose. If the purpose of God's creation of the earth was as a rehab centre for those addicted to evil, ie, a reform school to chasten, convert and sanctify His fallen sinful Church by teaching them to be righteous, Hebrews 12:5-11, then His creation of the earth for the purpose of the redemption of His church could indeed be called very good even though part of the church was already fallen and not doing so good.

The words of Genesis 2:18 are very familiar to us today: The Lord God said, ‘It is not good for the man to be alone.’” Have you ever considered the implication of this NOT GOODNESS being corrected before everything was judged to be VERY GOOD, one verse away ? Why does it not imply that GOD created something as not good? Did HE make a mistake or did something change within HIS creation so Adam was alone in a bad way, that is, needing to be corrected? Do we not believe that the only thing that can separate us from GOD is the free will choice to be sinful, to rebel against HIM because GOD cannot create evil?

And how does GOD fix this not good? HE brings the animals to Adam to name them and to see if his helpmeet was among them: Gen 2:20 The man gave names to all the livestock, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found.

helper: S5828. ezer
Definition: a help, helper

suitable: S5048: neged:
in front of, in sight of, opposite to
Does anyone have a reason so many, ie, most, commentators of this verse leave out any reference to the word suitable, that is, “in front of, in sight of, opposite to” as to its meaning to the verse or to the English, suitable? It seems like a wild guess as to what it means here...

So Adam did not just need a companion (perhaps a wife as most commentators suggest?) but he needed help with something... and the help was not just a general help such as with his gardening job but a specialized, suitable, helping as if by a teacher, mentor or example, maybe.

Does this need for a specialized helper impact at all upon the question: "Whose idea was it that Adam look among the animals for a his suitable, ie specialized, helper?" GOD knew HE had Eve in the wings for him so it must have been Adam's idea that an animal might be suitable, right? So why did GOD acquiesce to Adam's wanting to look among the animals for his helper instead of just telling him, "Nope, I got someone special for you!?" It seems like there was some separation between them after all, eh? Some lack of communication between GOD and HIS perfect, faithful, creation? Only a bit of miscommunication?

Or does it imply that Adam was not as he was created, ie perfect and innocent, but was being a little rebellious to GOD, ie, unfaithful in his heart against what GOD wanted for him? Does this story imply that Adam was sinful at this time in the garden? Was this why he and Eve were characterized as `RM, erm, that is, naked, the exact same word also used of the serpent to describe his being cunning in evil in the very next verse?

If so, then this cannot have been their creation because they had had time after their creation to understand GOD's commands and to break at least one of them to become sinful, that is, `rm.

If they were in fact merely unclothed and not sinful, then why when they ate were their eyes opened to their unclothedness, the unclothedness they had before they ate, as their sin and not to their eating as their sin?? What is sinful about being unclothed as GOD created you in the privacy of your own garden? Even if this is a euphemism for sex then how is it sinful when they were ordered to procreate? Nothing about this makes sense since being unclothed cannot be a sign of sinfulness! ! ! But as naked is a metaphor for being sinful throughout the bible, then this makes a lot of sense. Being naked as sinful is also strongly correlated wiht being blind to your sin and needing your eyes to be opened:
Rev 3:17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. Berean Standard Bible

Since the rabbis were convinced Adam and Eve were created in the garden, they rejected the idea they were already sinners when they arrived in the garden (GOD cannot create evil people - at least, not until HE needs to do so for some unknown reason, a reference to the original or inherited sin fiasco, another blasphemy altogether...) so they interpreted `rm as naked, not cunning in evil though the spelling was exactly the same. The Church Fathers agreed with the Hebrew scholars and ignored the implications of this story. Eisegesis can be fun, eh?

I also have concerns how this story of the fall in the garden and not before fits with
Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, etc, etc. which tells us clearly that the law was NOT given to the righteous to steer their decision but to the sinful to convict them of their sin,
Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin. which suggests that the command to not eat was given to them as sinners to convict them of their sinfulness as it did, very well.

To sum up the hints that there was sin in the garden (not just in the serpent) before they ate:
1. It was not good that Adam was alone.
2. There is no reason for Adam to be looking amongst the animals for Eve if he was not being rebellious.
3. Adam and Eve are called `rm which is both naked or equally possible, cunning in evil.
4. They were given a command which implies that they were sinners needing to have their eyes opened to their sin to convict them so they could repent and return to Christ.

5. And there is the small point of Adam being the first to bring sin into the world. In my book the serpent entered the garden with sinful intent to sin and tempted Eve, the first to sin. Then Eve ate, the second to sin and tempted Adam, the third to sin, when he ate.

The only way it makes sense to say Adam brought sin into the world is if Adam was a sinner when he was moved from Sheol into his human body, Matthew 13:36-39, by the breath of GOD and as the first person in the garden, he was the first to bring sin into world.
 
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Psalm of David 51:

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
This just as easily describes his being a sinner already before his conception, a sin he acquired by his free will decision to rebel against GOD before he was sown into this world of mankind, Matt 13:36-39, in which sown cannot meant to be created as the devil sows also.
 
This just as easily describes his being a sinner already before his conception, a sin he acquired by his free will decision to rebel against GOD before he was sown into this world of mankind, Matt 13:36-39, in which sown cannot meant to be created as the devil sows also.

This just as easily describes he was born of his own free will choice. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
This just as easily describes his being a sinner already before his conception, a sin he acquired by his free will decision to rebel against GOD before he was sown into this world of mankind, Matt 13:36-39, in which sown cannot meant to be created as the devil sows also.

Any doctrine you formulate, JUST to make you feel better about God's justice—whether Calvinism or Preconception Existence or denying the sin nature—you should always be suspicious of.

That is not the motivation we should come to God with. Our heart is deceitful above all things, so something about God's ways will always offend us, because it doesn't please our self-worship.
 
πᾶσα σάρξ (in imitation of the Hebrew כָּל־בָּשָׂר (Winers Grammar, 33)), every lving creature, 1 Peter 1:24; with οὐ preceding (qualifying the verb (Winers Grammar, § 26, 1; Buttmann, 121 (106))), no living creature, Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20; specifically, a man (ἄνθρωπος for בָּשָׂר, Genesis 6:13), generally with a suggestion of weakness, frailty, mortality: Sir. 28:5; ἐν τῷ Θεῷ ἤλπισα, οὐ φοβηθήσομαι τί ποιήσει μοι σάρξ, Psalm 55:5 (); cf. Jeremiah 17:5; ἐμνήσθη, ὅτι σάρξ εἰσιν, Psalm 77:39 (); σάρξ καί αἷμα, Ephesians 6:12; γενεά σαρκός καί αἵματος, ἡ μέν τελευτᾷ, ἑτέρα δέ γεννᾶται, Sir. 14:18; ὁ λόγος σάρξ ἐγένετο, entered into participation in human nature, John 1:14 (the apostle used σάρξ, not ἄνθρωπος, apparently in order to indicate that he who possessed supreme majesty did not shrink from union with extreme weakness); εὑρίσκειν τί κατά σάρκα, to attain to anything after the manner of a (weak) man, i. e. by the use of merely human powers, Romans 4:1 (for substance equivalent to ἐξ ἔργων in Romans 4:2); Hebraistically (see above), πᾶσα σάρξ, all men, Luke 3:6; John 17:2 (Winer's Grammar, § 30, 1 a.); Acts 2:17; Sir. 45:4; with οὐ or μή preceding (qualifying the verb (Winers Grammar, and Buttmann, as referred to above)), no man, no mortal, Romans 3:20; 1 Corinthians 1:29; Galatians 2:16. man as he appears, such as he presents himself to view, man's external appearance and condition: κατά σάρκα κρίνειν, John 8:15 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 583 (542)) (equivalent to κρίνειν κατ' ὄψιν, John 7:24); γινώσκειν or εἰδέναι τινα κατά σάρκα, 2 Corinthians 5:16; οἱ κατά σάρκα κυρίου (see κατά, II. 3 b.), Ephesians 6:5; Colossians 3:22. universally, human nature, the soul included: ἐν ὁμοιώματι σαρκός ἁμαρτίας, in a visible form, like human nature which is subject to sin, Romans 8:3 (cf. ὁμοίωμα, b.); ἐν σαρκί ἔρχεσθαι, to appear clothed in human nature, 1 John 4:2 and Rec. in 3; 2 John 1:7 (the Epistle of Barnabas 5, 10 [ET]); φανερουσθαι, 1 Timothy 3:16 (the Epistle of Barnabas 5, 6 [ET]; 6, 7 [ET]; 12, 10 [ET]); κεκοινωνηκεναι αἵματος καί σαρκός, Hebrews 2:14.

John 1:14- And the Word became flesh (sarx) and dwelled among us and we beheld His glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 2- Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17For this reason he had to be made like them, k fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Above we see the Son through the Incarnation became sarx( flesh). Hebrews 2 says He shared that same flesh we gave and was like us in every way.

So if Jesus came in the flesh ( John 1:1, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7) then His humanity disproves the sin nature minsnomer many teach and believe or one must admit Jesus was born with a fallen corrupt sinful nature and this born a sinner like all men are born sinners according to the doctrine of TD.

You see man in not born a sinner just like Jesus was not born a sinner. Jesus never sinned yet was born innocent like all men. We become sinners when we sin and become guilty of sin. This is why babies are innocent , not guilty.

hope this helps !!!
It does not help.All sinned in Adam, at one point in time, the fall
 
It does not help.All sinned in Adam, at one point in time, the fall
No one sins or is guilty of sin prior to committing a sin. The passages in the OP prove that biblical fact. You are reading your doctrine into scripture.
 
No one sins or is guilty of sin prior to committing a sin. The passages in the OP prove that biblical fact. You are reading your doctrine into scripture.

Man doesn't become fallen when he commits his first sin. We inherit our fallen condition. If God spares children (including unborn children) then that's because of His mercy. It's not because they don't have a fallen nature.

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

No exceptions.
 
Man doesn't become fallen when he commits his first sin. We inherit our fallen condition. If God spares children (including unborn children) then that's because of His mercy. It's not because they don't have a fallen nature.

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

No exceptions.
Yep everyone who sins is guilty. We are not born guilty.

No exceptions
 
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