The Incarnation disproves Total Depravity and sin nature

[civic]

πᾶσα σάρξ (in imitation of the Hebrew כָּל־בָּשָׂר (Winers Grammar, 33)), every lving creature, 1 Peter 1:24; with οὐ preceding (qualifying the verb (Winers Grammar, § 26, 1; Buttmann, 121 (106))), no living creature, Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20; specifically, a man (ἄνθρωπος for בָּשָׂר, Genesis 6:13), generally with a suggestion of weakness, frailty, mortality: Sir. 28:5; ἐν τῷ Θεῷ ἤλπισα, οὐ φοβηθήσομαι τί ποιήσει μοι σάρξ, Psalm 55:5 (); cf. Jeremiah 17:5; ἐμνήσθη, ὅτι σάρξ εἰσιν, Psalm 77:39 (); σάρξ καί αἷμα, Ephesians 6:12; γενεά σαρκός καί αἵματος, ἡ μέν τελευτᾷ, ἑτέρα δέ γεννᾶται, Sir. 14:18; ὁ λόγος σάρξ ἐγένετο, entered into participation in human nature, John 1:14 (the apostle used σάρξ, not ἄνθρωπος, apparently in order to indicate that he who possessed supreme majesty did not shrink from union with extreme weakness); εὑρίσκειν τί κατά σάρκα, to attain to anything after the manner of a (weak) man, i. e. by the use of merely human powers, Romans 4:1 (for substance equivalent to ἐξ ἔργων in Romans 4:2); Hebraistically (see above), πᾶσα σάρξ, all men, Luke 3:6; John 17:2 (Winer's Grammar, § 30, 1 a.); Acts 2:17; Sir. 45:4; with οὐ or μή preceding (qualifying the verb (Winers Grammar, and Buttmann, as referred to above)), no man, no mortal, Romans 3:20; 1 Corinthians 1:29; Galatians 2:16. man as he appears, such as he presents himself to view, man's external appearance and condition: κατά σάρκα κρίνειν, John 8:15 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 583 (542)) (equivalent to κρίνειν κατ' ὄψιν, John 7:24); γινώσκειν or εἰδέναι τινα κατά σάρκα, 2 Corinthians 5:16; οἱ κατά σάρκα κυρίου (see κατά, II. 3 b.), Ephesians 6:5; Colossians 3:22. universally, human nature, the soul included: ἐν ὁμοιώματι σαρκός ἁμαρτίας, in a visible form, like human nature which is subject to sin, Romans 8:3 (cf. ὁμοίωμα, b.); ἐν σαρκί ἔρχεσθαι, to appear clothed in human nature, 1 John 4:2 and Rec. in 3; 2 John 1:7 (the Epistle of Barnabas 5, 10 [ET]); φανερουσθαι, 1 Timothy 3:16 (the Epistle of Barnabas 5, 6 [ET]; 6, 7 [ET]; 12, 10 [ET]); κεκοινωνηκεναι αἵματος καί σαρκός, Hebrews 2:14.

John 1:14- And the Word became flesh (sarx) and dwelled among us and we beheld His glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 2- Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17For this reason he had to be made like them, k fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Above we see the Son through the Incarnation became sarx( flesh). Hebrews 2 says He shared that same flesh we have and was like us in every way.

So if Jesus came in the flesh ( John 1:1, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7) then His humanity disproves the sin nature misnomer many teach and believe or one must admit Jesus was born with a fallen corrupt sinful nature and thus born a sinner like all men are born sinners according to the doctrine of Original Sin and TD. ( Total Depravity )

You see man in not born a sinner just like Jesus was not born a sinner. Jesus never sinned yet was born innocent like all men. We become sinners when we sin and become guilty of sin. This is why babies are innocent , not guilty until they sin.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Augustine and Pelagius- the History of original sin.

Augustine’s doctrine of Original Sin was born from his attempt to combat the heresy of Pelagianism. The controversy began in Rome when the British monk, Pelagius, opposed Augustine’s prayer: “Grant what you command, and command what you desire”. Pelagius was opposing the idea that the divine gift of grace was necessary to perform the will of God. Pelagius believed that if we are responsible for obeying the commandments of God, then we must all also have the ability to do so without divine aid. He went on to deny the doctrine of Ancestral Sin, arguing that the consequences of Adam’s sin are not passed on to the rest of mankind. Adam’s sin affected Adam alone, and thus infants at birth are in the same state as Adam was before the Fall.

Augustine took a starkly different view of the Fall, arguing that mankind is utterly sinful and incapable of good. Augustine believed that the state of Original Sin leaves us in such a condition that we are unable to refrain from sin. The ‘image of God’ in man (i.e., free will) was destroyed by the Fall. As much as we may choose to do good, our evil impulses pervert our free will and compel us to do evil. Therefore we are totally dependent upon grace.

So far did Augustine take his grim view of the human condition, that he argued not only that the Original Sin effects all of Adam’s descendants, but that each person is guilty of the Original Sin from birth (Original Guilt). Infants are therefore guilty of sin and thus infants who die before baptism, in which (according to Augustine) the guilt of Original Sin is removed, are condemned to perdition and cannot be saved. As if that was not bad enough, Augustine went on to formulate the doctrine of Predestination, which affirms that God has foreordained who will be saved and who will not.

Augustine prevailed and Pelagius was condemned as a heretic by Rome at the Council of Carthage in 418. It seemed that Pelagius’ views were more reprehensible to the Latin Church than the idea of predestination and babies burning in hell – views that the Latin Church was not only willing to tolerate, but even willing to champion as Orthodox doctrine!


St John Chrysostom

Between Augustine and Pelagius there appeared to be no middle-way in the West. A different view, however, was expressed in the East by Augustine’s contemporary, John Chrysostom. The dispute between Augustine and Pelagius had not reached the East, and so Chrysostom’s views were not so agitated by heated disputes and polemics. Were Chrysostom involved in the dispute between Augustine and Pelagius, perhaps his teaching on Ancestral Sin would have prevailed over both Pelagius and Augustine alike, but considering that the sole concern of the Latin Church seemed to be the condemnation of Pelagianism, it is probably more likely that he would have been condemned as semi-pelagian.https://pemptousia.com/2017/02/original-sin-orthodox-doctrine-or-heresy/#_edn1 Whatever the case, Chrysostom’s views on the subject have never enjoyed the attention they deserve, and the heated nature of the dispute in the West meant that the doctrine of ‘Original Sin’ as expounded by Augustine was regarded as the only safeguard against the heresy of Pelagianism.

Chrysostom, while claiming that all human beings are made in the image of God, believed that the Ancestral Sin brought corruptibility and death not only to Adam but to all his descendants, weakening his ability to grow into God’s likeness, but never destroying God’s image (free will). Chrysostom is a major voice within a consensus of Greek patristic writers who interpret the Fall as “an inheritance essentially of mortality rather than sinfulness, sinfulness being merely a consequence of mortality”.[ii] Chrysostom’s position is echoed, for example, by St Athanasius the Great and St Cyril of Alexandria, who claimed that we are not guilty of Adam’s sin, though we inherit a corrupted nature; but our free will remains intact. This Greek patristic interpretation is founded upon Romans 5:12: “As sin came into the world through one man, and through sin, death, so death spread to all men because all men have sinned”[iii]. John Meyendorff explains how the deficient Latin translation of the text may have contributed to such a stark difference in the Latin interpretation of the Ancestral Sin:

‘In this passage there is a major issue of translation. The last four Greek words were translated in Latin as in quo omnes peccaverunt (“in whom [i.e., in Adam] all men have sinned”), and this translation was used in the West to justify the guilt inherited from Adam and spread to his descendants. But such a meaning cannot be drawn from the original Greek’.[iv]

St Cyril of Alexandria explained the passage in this way:

“How did many become sinners because of Adam?… How could we, who were not yet born, all be condemned with him, even though God said, ‘Neither the fathers shall be put to death because of their children, nor the children because of their fathers, but the soul which sins shall be put to death’? (cf. Deut. 24:18) … we became sinners through Adam’s disobedience in such manner as this: he was created for incorruptibility and life, and the manner of existence he had in the garden of delight was proper to holiness. His whole mind was continually beholding God; his body was tranquil and calm with all base pleasures being still. For there was no tumult of alien disturbances in it. But because he fell under sin and slipped into corruptibility, pleasures and filthiness assaulted the nature of the flesh, and in our members was unveiled a savage law. Our nature, then, became diseased by sin through the disobedience of one, that is, of Adam. Thus, all were made sinners, not by being co-transgressors with Adam,… but by being of his nature and falling under the law of sin… Human nature fell ill in Adam and subject to corruptibility through disobedience, and, therefore, the passions entered in”.[v]


St John Cassian

The East paid little attention to Augustine, and this was largely due to language barriers. For the Eastern Christians, serious theologians wrote in Greek, and they paid little heed to Latin writers. What opposition did come from the East came from some Eastern Orthodox theologians who, for one reason or another, found themselves living in the West. Amongst the most prominent was St John Cassian. St John opposed Augustine on four major points:

1) There were clearly instances where people had come to God of their own volition, who, while called by Christ and aided by divine grace, chose to change their ways (e.g. Matthew, Paul, Zacchaeus). Therefore, it is not grace alone that saves us, but also man’s willingness to repent.

2) After the Fall, Adam and his descendants retained a knowledge of good, and an impulse, however weakened, to pursue good. Man was not, as Augustine claimed, utterly depraved and incapable of good after the Fall.

3) The ‘Image’ of God in man is sick, but not dead. The divine image is in need of healing, but this healing requires synergy (the co-operation of man’s will with divine grace).

4) God wishes all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, so those who are not saved reject salvation against His will. Predestination should be understood as foreknowledge and not as foreordination.

The West condemned St John Cassian’s views as semi-pelagian, but for the Orthodox, Cassian is one of the foremost exponents of the Orthodox doctrine of theosis.[vi] His views were supported also by Theodoret of Antioch:

“There is need of both our efforts and divine aid. The grace of the Spirit is not vouchsafed to those who make no effort, and without grace our efforts can not collect the prize of virtue”.


The Ancestral Sin and Baptism


Augustine’s view of Original Sin was the reason also for his justification of infant baptism. Believing that babies are born guilty of sin, he argued that baptism was necessary for the babies’ salvation. He saw the innocence of infants purely in terms of their being physically too weak to commit sin, but equally guilty as adults of Adam’s sin.

The Greek Fathers, having a different view of the Fall and the Ancestral Sin, interpreted the purpose of infant baptism in another way, different in important respects from the familiar Augustinian and Reformed interpretations of the West. The Greek Fathers believed that newborn infants are innocents, wholly without sin. While infants inherit a human nature which, in its wholeness, is wounded by the Ancestral Sin, weakening the will and making each person prone to sin, they are innocent of sin nonetheless. In the fourth of his catechetical homilies on baptism, St John Chrysostom states, “We do baptise infants, although they are not guilty of any sins”. For the Greek Fathers, baptism, above all else, is an acceptance by the Church and entrance of the baptised person into the redeemed and sanctified Body of Christ, the beginning of a life spent in spiritual combat and instruction in holiness on the deepening journey to the Kingdom of God.

Considering the stark contrast between the Orthodox doctrine of the Ancestral Sin and the Augustinian doctrine of Original Sin, and the different understanding of baptism that these doctrines lead to, is it not surprising that some Orthodox speak of baptism in Augustinian terms – of the forgiveness of Original Sin – especially considering that the Orthodox service for baptism makes not a single reference to it? The closest we come to mention of the Ancestral Sin (Πρωπατρορικό ἁμάρτημα) in baptism is in the first prayer of the Service for the Making of a Catechumen (which was originally completely separate from the service of Baptism): “Remove far from him/her that ancient error” (παλαιά πλάνη). If one of the main purposes of baptism was the forgiveness of Original Sin, surely it would be worth mentioning in the baptism service! But the idea of ‘Original Sin’ being “forgiven” is nowhere to be found in the Greek Fathers or in the hymns and prayers of the Orthodox Church. For it is an idea which is alien to Greek Patristic thought. The Ancestral Sin is a condition, primarily of mortality and corruptibility, which needs healing, an inherited ‘illness’ which means that free will – or ‘the Image of God’ as the Greek Fathers preferred to put it – though kept intact, is in need of divine grace in order to progress along the path to attaining God’s ‘likeness’, the path to theosis or ‘deification’.

Conclusion​

Bearing in mind the significant differences between the Orthodox and the Augustinian views of ‘Original Sin’, it surprises me that some Orthodox Christians are so quick to employ the term, claiming that the Orthodox Church holds to the doctrine of ‘Original Sin’, and qualifying this simply by saying that it does not embrace the doctrine of ‘Original Guilt’. I do not think that this is adequate for expounding the Orthodox position on Original Sin. Although Augustine was recognised as a saint by the Orthodox Church,[vii] it has never accepted his teaching on Original Sin. If what I have written above is correct, then the Augustinian doctrine of Original Sin is wholly un-Orthodox, and it led, I believe, to a whole series of heresies in the Latin Church, such as Predestination, Purgatory, Limbo and the Immaculate Conception. We Orthodox would do well to distance ourselves from the well-known Augustinian position on Original Sin by employing a less familiar term: Ancestral Sin. It is not merely a case of semantics. For an erroneous understanding of this doctrine has serious repercussions for our understanding of sin and the Fall, for grace and free will, for baptism, the human condition and man’s deification. In short, how we understand the Ancestral Sin has direct implications for our whole soteriology – our understanding of the salvation of man and the world.https://pemptousia.com/2017/02/original-sin-orthodox-doctrine-or-heresy/

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Concupiscence is used in the English language to represent the teaching of Augustine concerning the evil desires of man that resulted from the fall of Adam. The doctrine has so permeated the languages of men that even Early Modern English used the word in translation when it is a doctrine. Not a translation. It was used in translation in many of the TR editions of the Bible. Which is horribly wrong. It is injecting doctrine into the Scriptures that should not be there.

To me, there is a "chicken and the egg" issue here.....

To your point, Adam put Eve before God. In innocence, Adam sinned.
Christ was innocent and always "put God/Father first.

1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

There are certainly similarities here and some differences. Christ certainly didn't inherit sin from Adam. There have been many excuses over time as to why....

 

[civic]

Also adams curse was tending the ground in labor and the woman pain in labor. The curse was not a sin nature since they still communicated with God post fall. The same with Cain if he had a sin nature then why would God tell him sin creeps at the door and give him a choice. It flies in the face of a sin nature and TD. Common sense shows that to be true when reading through those first chapters in Genesis and the Moses left it out for a good reason , it’s not true.

 

[civic]

1 John 3:4 " Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."

Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

Matthew 18:3, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:14, "But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

If children are born sinners as TD and original sin teaches then Jesus teaches that to be His disciples we must be corrupt like the little children which is an oxymoron.

The teaching above by Jesus, Ezekiel and John confirms the OP is true and original sin is not. One becomes a sinner when they sin and become guilty of that sin not before. Babies are born innocent, not guilty. There is no DNA gene making one a sinner that is folklore.

hope this helps !!!

 

[TedT]

What a great essay you wrote as the op for these quotes!!

You see man in not born a sinner just like Jesus was not born a sinner. Jesus never sinned yet was born innocent like all men. We become sinners when we sin and become guilty of sin. This is why babies are innocent , not guilty.

My problem with this is that innocents (not including Jesus) do not suffer and die but infants do suffer and die. Suffering is due to sin, either as a rehabilitative experience, Heb 12:5-11, or as a judgemental experience, Psalm 94:23, Ex 23:7 and perhaps Deuteronomy 27:25. Without sin there are no reason for an innocent to suffer.
And we know death is the wages for sin, not merely a consequence of life...so where is the justice of an innocent dying by the will of GOD? Can GOD go against HIMself and HIS command to not kill the innocent, Ex 28:7...Do not kill the innocent or the just,,,? Does not the word of GOD apply to GOD, its source: Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.?

So I stumble over the innocence of infants and believe death proves them to be sinful. BUT I too deny that GOD could with justice and righteousness would create us sinful by any means such as by using HIS representative Adam to imbue his descendants with sinfulness. This logic was a great impetus for me to look closely at the theology of our pre-earthly fall, elect and reprobate each, and give it a sincere scrutiny.

Adam’s sin affected Adam alone, and thus infants at birth are in the same state as Adam was before the Fall.

Well, yes, I do agree but only in that I believe only sinners are sown into this world of mankind, Matt 13:36-39, except for our Messiah. Adam was fallen when he was breathed into (sown into) his new earthly body and so are all his descendants.

 

[civic]

Death is the curse from the fall not guilt of an individuals sin. A baby cannot sin and can still die. We must not conflate the two @TedT

 

[praise_yeshua]

What a great essay you wrote as the op for these quotes!!


My problem with this is that innocents (not including Jesus) do not suffer and die but infants do suffer and die. Suffering is due to sin, either as a rehabilitative experience, Heb 12:5-11, or as a judgemental experience, Psalm 94:23, Ex 23:7 and perhaps Deuteronomy 27:25. Without sin there are no reason for an innocent to suffer.
And we know death is the wages for sin, not merely a consequence of life...so where is the justice of an innocent dying by the will of GOD? Can GOD go against HIMself and HIS command to not kill the innocent, Ex 28:7...Do not kill the innocent or the just,,,? Does not the word of GOD apply to GOD, its source: Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.?

So I stumble over the innocence of infants and believe death proves them to be sinful. BUT I too deny that GOD could with justice and righteousness would create us sinful by any means such as by using HIS representative Adam to imbue his descendants with sinfulness. This logic was a great impetus for me to look closely at the theology of our pre-earthly fall, elect and reprobate each, and give it a sincere scrutiny.


Well, yes, I do agree but only in that I believe only sinners are sown into this world of mankind, Matt 13:36-39, except for our Messiah. Adam was fallen when he was breathed into (sown into) his new earthly body and so are all his descendants.

Psa 103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

There is a chance that Paul was thinking of this verse when he wrote

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

There is an innate weakness to our existence. I question whether Adam wasn't already the same way. Peccable.

Which is why I mentioned the "chicken and the egg" analogy......

Innocence is really more than just the lack of sin. It is also the lack of culpability.

 

[Diserner]

Death is the curse from the fall not guilt of an individuals sin. A baby cannot sin and can still die. We must not conflate the two @TedT

So the wages of sin means other people die now.

The very thing Ezekiel 18 condemns.

The SOUL that sins shall die.


I encourage everyone embracing such a edited as their own inherent holiness to ask this question to God directly and sincerely:

"Lord, am I really pure and holy and good and righteous at the very core of my being? Is that who I really am?"

God will answer the sincere seeker, and not with the edited of this post.

Edited by moderator

 

[Diserner]

Christ condemned more than sins, individual and plural, on the Cross.

The snake was on the pole, not just his venom.

For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, (Rom. 8:3 NKJ)

Notice he did not condemn "sins" plural in the flesh, but the singular sin principle.

Weak through the flesh of an inherently righteous nature? I think not.

 

[Azriel]

So the wages of sin means other people die now.

The very thing Ezekiel 18 condemns.

The SOUL that sins shall die.


I encourage everyone embracing such a edited as their own inherent holiness to ask this question to God directly and sincerely:

"Lord, am I really pure and holy and good and righteous at the very core of my being? Is that who I really am?"

God will answer the sincere seeker, and not with the edited of this post.

Edited by moderator

It doesn't necessarily have to be the wages of sin since everyone dies. Unless the rapture happens first. Although that's where death entered into the picture. Right in the garden... it was all good and then it wasn't.

 

[Diserner]

It doesn't necessarily have to be the wages of sin since everyone dies. Unless the rapture happens first. Although that's where death entered into the picture. Right in the garden... it was all good and then it wasn't.

Yes, death NECESSARILY has to be the wages of sin for God to be just and honor his Word.

A sin nature exists:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/four-reasons-i-believe-in-the-sinful-nature-original-sin-ancestral-sin-total-depravity.384/

 

[Azriel]

Adam was fallen when he was breathed into (sown into) his new earthly body and so are all his descendants.

Well since he was made from dust he didn't have to fall very far. But how does that work since God had this to say about his creation?

God saw that it was good (Genesis 1:18)?​

 

[civic]

It doesn't necessarily have to be the wages of sin since everyone dies. Unless the rapture happens first. Although that's where death entered into the picture. Right in the garden... it was all good and then it wasn't.

Consequences of sin not inherited sin. It’s inherited death.

 

[civic]

Yes, death NECESSARILY has to be the wages of sin for God to be just and honor his Word.

A sin nature exists:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/four-reasons-i-believe-in-the-sinful-nature-original-sin-ancestral-sin-total-depravity.384/

Addressed and refuted here in this thread second post.

 

[Azriel]

Yes, death NECESSARILY has to be the wages of sin for God to be just and honor his Word.

A sin nature exists:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/four-reasons-i-believe-in-the-sinful-nature-original-sin-ancestral-sin-total-depravity.384/

Banjo Bob says a sin nature doesn't exist

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/your-views-on-human-beings-having-a-sin-nature.621/post-15890

 

[Behold]

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

What you posted is a early beginning part of Paul's Teaching and Testimony, regarding His understanding that "being blameless in the Law",.. which He was, ... is a ZERO, in God's perspective, regarding real righteousness.

He learned in the Spirit, the revelation that God only accepts's God's Righteousness, which is so far beyond what we can try to do, as Law-keeping and good deeds and so forth.
Paul learned early, in his "working out his Salvation", that God's Righteousness, is So HOLY...is SO CLEAN, is SO PURE, is so Righteous...that even a former Pharisee, like Paul... who kept the law.. was "blameless in the LAW".........when He "got the revelation" of this Holy God, This Supernatural Being's Holiness.... that makes the SUN seem like an ICE BERG with regards to HEAT...... He understood that all our righteousness is as a filthy rag, as compared to God's Holiness.

Reader..
You've read about Sodom and Gomorrah... "the fire and brimstone'.. ??????????????????????

What that actually is, .. is God's holiness turned upon that city, and the Heat from God's Holiness, burns sin, flesh, all of this... as its that RIGHTEOUS.

Yes, really.

See, The SUN is an ice-cube compared to this Eternal Being, This "Eternal SPIRIT", this one True GOD's RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Paul said that his blameless law-keeping, (Philippians 3 ), is as DUNG..... SEWAGE, compared as before God's Righteousness.

So, He goes on to teach us that He only wanted to be found "IN Christ", where God's Righteousness becomes the born again, as "The righteousness of God in Christ". "made righteous".

So, when we hear so called "believers", .. who are trying to be good, trying to be SELF Good, ..Self Made Righteous.... these Law worshipers, who can't name 40 of The Laws, and there are 613 of them....... When we find these self righteous commandment obsessed people... ranting about "works"..... What we are dealing with is this person's actual and literal belief that they can EQUAL God's righteousness.
They believe they can EQUAL Christ's Righteous, of themselves.

That's amazing PRIDE. And that is the very same foolish Pride that teaches that Salvation can be lost, as if this same Pride filled person has the equal power to UNDO what God as Christ on the Cross, has completed by the finished work of Jesus The Lord's Sacrifice and Resurrection.

Can you see it Reader?
Am i getting through?


Paul said ALL that SELF MADE RIGHTEOUSNESS..... is "DUNG"< as compared to God's righteousness. So, we are to get away from that SELF Righteousness and cling only to God's Righteousness, that is to be found as being born again "IN CHRIST"= having received "the GIFT of Righteousness".

We "Present our bodies to God as a living Sacrifice" because we have already become born again as "The Righteousness of God, In Christ".

 

[Azriel]

Consequences of sin not inherited sin. It’s inherited death.

Jesus removed the sin barrier. I can come boldly to the throne to receive grace and mercy. Death is no big deal either because I'm going to have a resurrection body that will last for eternity.

 

[Azriel]

So if Jesus came in the flesh ( John 1:1, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7) then His humanity disproves the sin nature minsnomer many teach and believe or one must admit Jesus was born with a fallen corrupt sinful nature and this born a sinner like all men are born sinners according to the doctrine of TD.

You see man in not born a sinner just like Jesus was not born a sinner. Jesus never sinned yet was born innocent like all men. We become sinners when we sin and become guilty of sin. This is why babies are innocent , not guilty.

hope this helps !!!

Jesus had DNA from Adam through King David and through Mary. That was his humanity. And if he had a sin nature he couldn't be our savior he couldn't be a perfect sacrifice he had to be without sin.

Now the Bible tells us that he was tempted in every way we are. Think about that... if we're all totally depraved we wouldn't need to be tempted.

 

[civic]

Jesus had DNA from Adam through King David and through Mary. That was his humanity. And if he had a sin nature he couldn't be our savior he couldn't be a perfect sacrifice he had to be without sin.

Now the Bible tells us that he was tempted in every way we are. Think about that... if we're all totally depraved we wouldn't need to be tempted.

Yes His human nature is the same as ours as Hebrews 2 teaches us. There is no sin nature otherwise Jesus had a sin nature. Meaning He was corrupt and guilty as TD and original sin teaches about humanity post fall. They created an unbiblical doctrine sin is passed through mans sperm. Absurd.