The Incarnation disproves Total Depravity and sin nature

Man doesn't become fallen when he commits his first sin. We inherit our fallen condition. If God spares children (including unborn children) then that's because of His mercy. It's not because they don't have a fallen nature.

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

No exceptions.

You and @dizerner have avoided my question of verse 12 like the plague.....

Please read it again. Notice "they HAVE BECOME.....

Why are you ripping these words from their context?

Adam had the capacity/capability to sin. That is what you see in humanity.
 
No one sins or is guilty of sin prior to committing a sin. The passages in the OP prove that biblical fact. You are reading your doctrine into scripture.
No ,I am not reading personal ideas into anything, but rather understanding revealed truth that you are denying. Read and learn;
The aorist tense here is referred to as "timeless aorist" which gathers up the whole human race for all time into this condemnation (see also A T Robertson). There are no exceptions save Christ Jesus as Paul has made clear in the preceding indictment in (Ro 1:18-3:20)

Godet agrees writing that the aorist tense "transports us to the point of time when the result of human life appears as a completed fact, the hour of judgment." (The Epistle of St Paul to the Romans - Chapter 3)

MacDonald writes that the aorist tense pictures the fact that "Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants. But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice. (Borrow Believer's Bible Commentary)


Leon Morris - The aorist pictures this as past, but also as a completion. It certainly does not mean that sin belongs wholly in the past, for Paul goes on to a present tense when he says fall short of the glory of God.

Vincent writes that the aorist tense means "looking back to a thing definitely past — the historic occurrence of sin."
 
Augustine and Pelagius- the History of original sin.

Augustine’s doctrine of Original Sin was born from his attempt to combat the heresy of Pelagianism. The controversy began in Rome when the British monk, Pelagius, opposed Augustine’s prayer: “Grant what you command, and command what you desire”. Pelagius was opposing the idea that the divine gift of grace was necessary to perform the will of God. Pelagius believed that if we are responsible for obeying the commandments of God, then we must all also have the ability to do so without divine aid. He went on to deny the doctrine of Ancestral Sin, arguing that the consequences of Adam’s sin are not passed on to the rest of mankind. Adam’s sin affected Adam alone, and thus infants at birth are in the same state as Adam was before the Fall.

Augustine took a starkly different view of the Fall, arguing that mankind is utterly sinful and incapable of good. Augustine believed that the state of Original Sin leaves us in such a condition that we are unable to refrain from sin. The ‘image of God’ in man (i.e., free will) was destroyed by the Fall. As much as we may choose to do good, our evil impulses pervert our free will and compel us to do evil. Therefore we are totally dependent upon grace.

So far did Augustine take his grim view of the human condition, that he argued not only that the Original Sin effects all of Adam’s descendants, but that each person is guilty of the Original Sin from birth (Original Guilt). Infants are therefore guilty of sin and thus infants who die before baptism, in which (according to Augustine) the guilt of Original Sin is removed, are condemned to perdition and cannot be saved. As if that was not bad enough, Augustine went on to formulate the doctrine of Predestination, which affirms that God has foreordained who will be saved and who will not.

Augustine prevailed and Pelagius was condemned as a heretic by Rome at the Council of Carthage in 418. It seemed that Pelagius’ views were more reprehensible to the Latin Church than the idea of predestination and babies burning in hell – views that the Latin Church was not only willing to tolerate, but even willing to champion as Orthodox doctrine!


St John Chrysostom

Between Augustine and Pelagius there appeared to be no middle-way in the West. A different view, however, was expressed in the East by Augustine’s contemporary, John Chrysostom. The dispute between Augustine and Pelagius had not reached the East, and so Chrysostom’s views were not so agitated by heated disputes and polemics. Were Chrysostom involved in the dispute between Augustine and Pelagius, perhaps his teaching on Ancestral Sin would have prevailed over both Pelagius and Augustine alike, but considering that the sole concern of the Latin Church seemed to be the condemnation of Pelagianism, it is probably more likely that he would have been condemned as semi-pelagian.https://pemptousia.com/2017/02/original-sin-orthodox-doctrine-or-heresy/#_edn1 Whatever the case, Chrysostom’s views on the subject have never enjoyed the attention they deserve, and the heated nature of the dispute in the West meant that the doctrine of ‘Original Sin’ as expounded by Augustine was regarded as the only safeguard against the heresy of Pelagianism.

Chrysostom, while claiming that all human beings are made in the image of God, believed that the Ancestral Sin brought corruptibility and death not only to Adam but to all his descendants, weakening his ability to grow into God’s likeness, but never destroying God’s image (free will). Chrysostom is a major voice within a consensus of Greek patristic writers who interpret the Fall as “an inheritance essentially of mortality rather than sinfulness, sinfulness being merely a consequence of mortality”.[ii] Chrysostom’s position is echoed, for example, by St Athanasius the Great and St Cyril of Alexandria, who claimed that we are not guilty of Adam’s sin, though we inherit a corrupted nature; but our free will remains intact. This Greek patristic interpretation is founded upon Romans 5:12: “As sin came into the world through one man, and through sin, death, so death spread to all men because all men have sinned”[iii]. John Meyendorff explains how the deficient Latin translation of the text may have contributed to such a stark difference in the Latin interpretation of the Ancestral Sin:

‘In this passage there is a major issue of translation. The last four Greek words were translated in Latin as in quo omnes peccaverunt (“in whom [i.e., in Adam] all men have sinned”), and this translation was used in the West to justify the guilt inherited from Adam and spread to his descendants. But such a meaning cannot be drawn from the original Greek’.[iv]

St Cyril of Alexandria explained the passage in this way:

“How did many become sinners because of Adam?… How could we, who were not yet born, all be condemned with him, even though God said, ‘Neither the fathers shall be put to death because of their children, nor the children because of their fathers, but the soul which sins shall be put to death’? (cf. Deut. 24:18) … we became sinners through Adam’s disobedience in such manner as this: he was created for incorruptibility and life, and the manner of existence he had in the garden of delight was proper to holiness. His whole mind was continually beholding God; his body was tranquil and calm with all base pleasures being still. For there was no tumult of alien disturbances in it. But because he fell under sin and slipped into corruptibility, pleasures and filthiness assaulted the nature of the flesh, and in our members was unveiled a savage law. Our nature, then, became diseased by sin through the disobedience of one, that is, of Adam. Thus, all were made sinners, not by being co-transgressors with Adam,… but by being of his nature and falling under the law of sin… Human nature fell ill in Adam and subject to corruptibility through disobedience, and, therefore, the passions entered in”.[v]


St John Cassian

The East paid little attention to Augustine, and this was largely due to language barriers. For the Eastern Christians, serious theologians wrote in Greek, and they paid little heed to Latin writers. What opposition did come from the East came from some Eastern Orthodox theologians who, for one reason or another, found themselves living in the West. Amongst the most prominent was St John Cassian. St John opposed Augustine on four major points:

1) There were clearly instances where people had come to God of their own volition, who, while called by Christ and aided by divine grace, chose to change their ways (e.g. Matthew, Paul, Zacchaeus). Therefore, it is not grace alone that saves us, but also man’s willingness to repent.

2) After the Fall, Adam and his descendants retained a knowledge of good, and an impulse, however weakened, to pursue good. Man was not, as Augustine claimed, utterly depraved and incapable of good after the Fall.

3) The ‘Image’ of God in man is sick, but not dead. The divine image is in need of healing, but this healing requires synergy (the co-operation of man’s will with divine grace).

4) God wishes all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, so those who are not saved reject salvation against His will. Predestination should be understood as foreknowledge and not as foreordination.

The West condemned St John Cassian’s views as semi-pelagian, but for the Orthodox, Cassian is one of the foremost exponents of the Orthodox doctrine of theosis.[vi] His views were supported also by Theodoret of Antioch:

“There is need of both our efforts and divine aid. The grace of the Spirit is not vouchsafed to those who make no effort, and without grace our efforts can not collect the prize of virtue”.


The Ancestral Sin and Baptism


Augustine’s view of Original Sin was the reason also for his justification of infant baptism. Believing that babies are born guilty of sin, he argued that baptism was necessary for the babies’ salvation. He saw the innocence of infants purely in terms of their being physically too weak to commit sin, but equally guilty as adults of Adam’s sin.

The Greek Fathers, having a different view of the Fall and the Ancestral Sin, interpreted the purpose of infant baptism in another way, different in important respects from the familiar Augustinian and Reformed interpretations of the West. The Greek Fathers believed that newborn infants are innocents, wholly without sin. While infants inherit a human nature which, in its wholeness, is wounded by the Ancestral Sin, weakening the will and making each person prone to sin, they are innocent of sin nonetheless. In the fourth of his catechetical homilies on baptism, St John Chrysostom states, “We do baptise infants, although they are not guilty of any sins”. For the Greek Fathers, baptism, above all else, is an acceptance by the Church and entrance of the baptised person into the redeemed and sanctified Body of Christ, the beginning of a life spent in spiritual combat and instruction in holiness on the deepening journey to the Kingdom of God.

Considering the stark contrast between the Orthodox doctrine of the Ancestral Sin and the Augustinian doctrine of Original Sin, and the different understanding of baptism that these doctrines lead to, is it not surprising that some Orthodox speak of baptism in Augustinian terms – of the forgiveness of Original Sin – especially considering that the Orthodox service for baptism makes not a single reference to it? The closest we come to mention of the Ancestral Sin (Πρωπατρορικό ἁμάρτημα) in baptism is in the first prayer of the Service for the Making of a Catechumen (which was originally completely separate from the service of Baptism): “Remove far from him/her that ancient error” (παλαιά πλάνη). If one of the main purposes of baptism was the forgiveness of Original Sin, surely it would be worth mentioning in the baptism service! But the idea of ‘Original Sin’ being “forgiven” is nowhere to be found in the Greek Fathers or in the hymns and prayers of the Orthodox Church. For it is an idea which is alien to Greek Patristic thought. The Ancestral Sin is a condition, primarily of mortality and corruptibility, which needs healing, an inherited ‘illness’ which means that free will – or ‘the Image of God’ as the Greek Fathers preferred to put it – though kept intact, is in need of divine grace in order to progress along the path to attaining God’s ‘likeness’, the path to theosis or ‘deification’.




Conclusion

Bearing in mind the significant differences between the Orthodox and the Augustinian views of ‘Original Sin’, it surprises me that some Orthodox Christians are so quick to employ the term, claiming that the Orthodox Church holds to the doctrine of ‘Original Sin’, and qualifying this simply by saying that it does not embrace the doctrine of ‘Original Guilt’. I do not think that this is adequate for expounding the Orthodox position on Original Sin. Although Augustine was recognised as a saint by the Orthodox Church,[vii] it has never accepted his teaching on Original Sin. If what I have written above is correct, then the Augustinian doctrine of Original Sin is wholly un-Orthodox, and it led, I believe, to a whole series of heresies in the Latin Church, such as Predestination, Purgatory, Limbo and the Immaculate Conception. We Orthodox would do well to distance ourselves from the well-known Augustinian position on Original Sin by employing a less familiar term: Ancestral Sin. It is not merely a case of semantics. For an erroneous understanding of this doctrine has serious repercussions for our understanding of sin and the Fall, for grace and free will, for baptism, the human condition and man’s deification. In short, how we understand the Ancestral Sin has direct implications for our whole soteriology – our understanding of the salvation of man and the world.https://pemptousia.com/2017/02/original-sin-orthodox-doctrine-or-heresy/

hope this helps !!!
That is true. The incarnation must disprove total depravity and a sin nature if Jesus isn't God. Very good. (That is the only logical way for that to be true.) If Jesus is God, it proves total depravity and a sin nature, which is the reason for the nature of Jesus birth. By not having an earthly father, Jesus did not inherit a sin nature. The sin nature is passed on by the fathers. (Remember, Paul doesn't say it is by one woman that sin entered the world, but by one man. Eve's sin didn't affect anything other than herself. Adam's sin damned the human race. God gave Adam dominion over all creation, not Eve.)

Total inability (which is found in total depravity) is true. Jesus spoke to that directly. The disciples asked Jesus, basically, who then can be saved. Jesus started with... no one. "With man it is impossible." We can't do anything for ourselves. We, as man, are compelled by the word impossible to never be saved. We cannot do it. Jesus is clear. However, Jesus then says that if God is involved, all things are possible, including salvation. So where we are completely incapable, lost in our total depravity, God can break that. God can save. Yet, if it is God who saves, then why is universalism a heresy? Doesn't God will, determinant, that all will be saved? Or, is it true in the English language of the time, that will actually meant desire, and was not determinant. (Apparently at the time King James was written, the actual meaning of "will" was different than today, and was firmly in the "desire" camp. Hence, later translations actually speak of desire, instead of will. The language changed.)

The original sin generally speaks to the sin nature, that which, by Adam's sin, separated all of creation from God. That which had God, through Paul, say "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Jesus is not like us, since He is God, therefore He does not fall under that pronouncement. He would have if His humanity failed Satan's test. (It would never happen, but the possibility existed. Just because it won't happen doesn't mean it is absent. It is just the road never taken.) Satan would never try to tempt God. However, Jesus incarnate was both God and human. A possible weakness. Tempt the humanity. Satan tempted the humans weaknesses. Hey, you're hungry... just turn some rocks into bread and eat. You can do that. And look, all these people curse you and attack you because they don't recognize you. Just jump off the temple, and the angels will come and your identity will be known. No one will attack you any longer, and they will listen. Finally, you know, you don't need to go through all the pain that is coming. Not at all. In fact, I'll give everything to you. Yes, you can have it all without having to go through the pain to come, just bow and worship Satan. Powerful temptations, all aimed at every issue Jesus was facing and would face. Yet Jesus never once sinned. Why? He is the example that we are to try to follow. We will stumble, but He is our goal. He is to be our desire. heart, mind, and soul. All of it.
 
No ,I am not reading personal ideas into anything, but rather understanding revealed truth that you are denying. Read and learn;
The aorist tense here is referred to as "timeless aorist" which gathers up the whole human race for all time into this condemnation (see also A T Robertson). There are no exceptions save Christ Jesus as Paul has made clear in the preceding indictment in (Ro 1:18-3:20)

Godet agrees writing that the aorist tense "transports us to the point of time when the result of human life appears as a completed fact, the hour of judgment." (The Epistle of St Paul to the Romans - Chapter 3)

MacDonald writes that the aorist tense pictures the fact that "Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants. But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice. (Borrow Believer's Bible Commentary)


Leon Morris - The aorist pictures this as past, but also as a completion. It certainly does not mean that sin belongs wholly in the past, for Paul goes on to a present tense when he says fall short of the glory of God.

Vincent writes that the aorist tense means "looking back to a thing definitely past — the historic occurrence of sin."

Got to love the commentary.
 
That is true. The incarnation must disprove total depravity and a sin nature if Jesus isn't God. Very good. (That is the only logical way for that to be true.) If Jesus is God, it proves total depravity and a sin nature, which is the reason for the nature of Jesus birth. By not having an earthly father, Jesus did not inherit a sin nature. The sin nature is passed on by the fathers. (Remember, Paul doesn't say it is by one woman that sin entered the world, but by one man. Eve's sin didn't affect anything other than herself. Adam's sin damned the human race. God gave Adam dominion over all creation, not Eve.)

Nope. Misrepresenting Scripture.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Notice the "THEM" (plural). I'm glad the Scriptures can protect us from the misrepresentations of men. Notice how even Calvinists reject such claims.

Notice the words of John Gill. A better educated and practicing Calvinist than any here.

and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air; that is, to catch them, and eat them; though in the after grant of food to man, no mention as yet is made of any other meat than the herbs and fruits of the earth; yet what can this dominion over fish and fowl signify, unless it be a power to feed upon them? It may be observed, that the plural number is used, "let them", which shows that the name "man" is general in the preceding clause, and includes male and female, as we find by the following verse man was created:

Total inability (which is found in total depravity) is true. Jesus spoke to that directly. The disciples asked Jesus, basically, who then can be saved. Jesus started with... no one. "With man it is impossible." We can't do anything for ourselves.

Correct. Man can't save Himself. Good thing Jesus died to save man. Not just you. Not just your friends. Not just the few that you believe are saved.

We, as man, are compelled by the word impossible to never be saved. We cannot do it. Jesus is clear.

Correct. You can't. Jesus did it all. You're conflating this to mean that only your few are saved. Nonsense.

The original sin generally speaks to the sin nature, that which, by Adam's sin, separated all of creation from God.

"Generally"...... Arguments such as this require more than an "general" argument.

That which had God, through Paul, say "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Jesus is not like us, since He is God, therefore He does not fall under that pronouncement. He would have if His humanity failed Satan's test. (It would never happen, but the possibility existed. Just because it won't happen doesn't mean it is absent. It is just the road never taken.) Satan would never try to tempt God. However, Jesus incarnate was both God and human. A possible weakness. Tempt the humanity. Satan tempted the humans weaknesses. Hey, you're hungry... just turn some rocks into bread and eat. You can do that. And look, all these people curse you and attack you because they don't recognize you. Just jump off the temple, and the angels will come and your identity will be known. No one will attack you any longer, and they will listen. Finally, you know, you don't need to go through all the pain that is coming. Not at all. In fact, I'll give everything to you. Yes, you can have it all without having to go through the pain to come, just bow and worship Satan. Powerful temptations, all aimed at every issue Jesus was facing and would face. Yet Jesus never once sinned. Why? He is the example that we are to try to follow. We will stumble, but He is our goal. He is to be our desire. heart, mind, and soul. All of it.

Sure. All men are peccable. Capable of sin. However, Adam was already the same. He was capable of sin. The proof is in the fact that Adam sinned.

I'm going to ask you since no other Calvinists seem to want to answer.

Please pay attention to these words you're quoting. Notice....

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You answer doesn't deal properly with these words. THEY HAVE GONE.... Notice they were once not sinful. They have gone.....

Now... WHO are they?

Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

God destroyed this world once with a flood and ONLY 8 righteous souls remained. Notice 8 righteous souls.....
 
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Total inability (which is found in total depravity) is true. Jesus spoke to that directly. The disciples asked Jesus, basically, who then can be saved. Jesus started with... no one. "With man it is impossible." We can't do anything for ourselves.

I always thought of total depravity as meaning total inability due to the fallen nature, i.e. spiritually dead and unable to discern things of the Spirit. The word "depravity" makes it sound like you want to spend all your time in a drugged up or drunken orgy and murdering anyone you don't like, so I can see why some people don't like the term "total depravity". Total depravity is still true, but emotional reaction aside, anything less than total inability is outright Pelagianism.
 
I always thought of total depravity as meaning total inability due to the fallen nature, i.e. spiritually dead and unable to discern things of the Spirit. The word "depravity" makes it sound like you want to spend all your time in a drugged up or drunken orgy and murdering anyone you don't like, so I can see why some people don't like the term "total depravity". Total depravity is still true, but emotional reaction aside, anything less than total inability is outright Pelagianism.

Anything less? There are several characteristics associated with Pelagianism. "Human perfection" isn't the same as recognizing a limit to the "inclination" to sin.

A child left to himself will do what? A child not left to himself will do what?
 
Nope. Misrepresenting Scripture.
I take it sarcasm escapes you?
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Notice the "THEM" (plural). I'm glad the Scriptures can protect us from the misrepresentations of men. Notice how even Calvinists reject such claims.

Notice the words of John Gill. A better educated and practicing Calvinist than any here.

and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air; that is, to catch them, and eat them; though in the after grant of food to man, no mention as yet is made of any other meat than the herbs and fruits of the earth; yet what can this dominion over fish and fowl signify, unless it be a power to feed upon them? It may be observed, that the plural number is used, "let them", which shows that the name "man" is general in the preceding clause, and includes male and female, as we find by the following verse man was created:
Fallacy of appeal to authority. Everywhere else I looked was pretty clear that it is granting authority over them. That is it. Apparently Mr. Gill here does not believe in creation and the flood. Genesis 2 casts a different light on this, as Adam is clear that Eve is from him. That the man was created in God's image. The reason why Eve was known as "woman" is, according to Adam, because he named her. She came from man, therefore she will be known as "woman". Why do so many people ignore scriptural context? As to not believing in the flood, meat wasn't on the menu until after the flood.
Correct. Man can't save Himself. Good thing Jesus died to save man. Not just you. Not just your friends. Not just the few that you believe are saved.
Correct. You can't. Jesus did it all. You're conflating this to mean that only your few are saved. Nonsense.
Incorrect: You are projecting yourself and your beliefs. I understand the fact that I am not a universalist urks you, but your argument is not going to convince me that universalism is true. Man can do nothing to save himself. It is all God. If God doesn't want to save you, quite simply, you are damned. There is nothing you can do to change that. If you believe you can, you deny the words of Christ.
"Generally"...... Arguments such as this require more than an "general" argument.
Please just come out and say you are a pelagian. Stop hiding in the closet. There is a sin nature, and of that Paul is clear. Since you seem to be saying that one has to argue for the existence of a sin nature requires something more than just saying there is, that is a problem. We know there is a sin nature. Paul speaks of it. The body of death to which Paul was bound. The old man who passed away. (Notice he never speaks of an older man...) The old has passed away. What is the old?
Sure. All men are peccable. Capable of sin. However, Adam was already the same. He was capable of sin. The proof is in the fact that Adam sinned.
Paul said all men are slaves of sin. That isn't simply peccable. They are incapable of performing righteousness. All our righteousness is as filthy rags. Scripture is very clear. "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." An absolute statement. The one time where having ALL in a true/false statement doesn't mean it is false. Adam was capable of sin as a human. Even angels at one time were capable of sin. That is where "fallen angels" came from. Adam was the representative of all creation, of all humanity. When he fell, ALL humanity fell in him. All believers rise in Christ. I remember scripture making this kind of comparison between Adam and Christ. I'm going to ask you since no other Calvinists seem to want to answer.
Please pay attention to these words you're quoting. Notice....

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You answer doesn't deal properly with these words. THEY HAVE GONE.... Notice they were once not sinful. They have gone.....
I can see why they don't want to answer. You have no question/argument. This is a prophecy from the old testament. It tells us that in humanity there are none that are righteous, none that understand, none that seek after God, none that do good. All absolute definitive statements. Romans 3:12 is the part of the prophecy that tells us why. Other translations handle it better. Humanity has gone its own way. They have ALL gone their own way. They are TOGETHER become unprofitable. There is not a single one that does good, no not one. If they were once not sinful, it would say so.
Now... WHO are they?

Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Why are you considering this as part of the argument. He looked down upon the children of men to what? To see if there were any that understood (understood what?) and seek God. If any understand... God. The response is no, all men have gone aside (they do not understand and seek God). They all together (ALL TOGETHER) become filthy. There are none that do good, no not one. It really isn't that difficult to understand. The world was getting worse day by day. Abraham sought after God, yet he still sinned. He wasn't perfect. If not, why did God have to credit any righteousness to Abraham? For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. ALL. Not some. Jesus doesn't fit because Jesus was God and man. It is possible, technically, that Jesus could have sinned, but He was not a slave to sin as all humanity is. I speak solely to Jesus humanity. Jesus was the second Adam. Part of His right/ability to mediate for mankind is the fact that He experienced all that we experience, with the ever important words, without sin.
God destroyed this world once with a flood and ONLY 8 righteous souls remained. Notice 8 righteous souls.....
This has no place in the argument you are making. I understand that your desire is to destroy the consistency of scripture, but scripture is still consistent. As such, if you consider the context of scripture, you will learn that "righteous" in this case doesn't mean what you think it means. It just means they were not guilty of the particular sins that brought God to destroy the world with water. That is all. If you are still uncertain, read what Noah did after the flood. That should clear things up.
 
I always thought of total depravity as meaning total inability due to the fallen nature, i.e. spiritually dead and unable to discern things of the Spirit. The word "depravity" makes it sound like you want to spend all your time in a drugged up or drunken orgy and murdering anyone you don't like, so I can see why some people don't like the term "total depravity". Total depravity is still true, but emotional reaction aside, anything less than total inability is outright Pelagianism.
That is true. That is why I keep trying to bring up total inability. The reason we have total inability is that we are bound to sin, slaves to sin. Bond slaves to sin have no rights. Our minds are set on sin day in and day out. Simply failing to recognize God is a sin. One that God eventually punishes in some by setting in them a depraved mind that destroys itself.
 
That is true. That is why I keep trying to bring up total inability. The reason we have total inability is that we are bound to sin, slaves to sin. Bond slaves to sin have no rights. Our minds are set on sin day in and day out. Simply failing to recognize God is a sin. One that God eventually punishes in some by setting in them a depraved mind that destroys itself.
Are you a slave to sin? Obviously you are not totally depraved... right?
 
I take it sarcasm escapes you?

Fallacy of appeal to authority. Everywhere else I looked was pretty clear that it is granting authority over them. That is it. Apparently Mr. Gill here does not believe in creation and the flood. Genesis 2 casts a different light on this, as Adam is clear that Eve is from him. That the man was created in God's image. The reason why Eve was known as "woman" is, according to Adam, because he named her. She came from man, therefore she will be known as "woman". Why do so many people ignore scriptural context? As to not believing in the flood, meat wasn't on the menu until after the flood.

Incorrect: You are projecting yourself and your beliefs. I understand the fact that I am not a universalist urks you, but your argument is not going to convince me that universalism is true. Man can do nothing to save himself. It is all God. If God doesn't want to save you, quite simply, you are damned. There is nothing you can do to change that. If you believe you can, you deny the words of Christ.

Please just come out and say you are a pelagian. Stop hiding in the closet. There is a sin nature, and of that Paul is clear. Since you seem to be saying that one has to argue for the existence of a sin nature requires something more than just saying there is, that is a problem. We know there is a sin nature. Paul speaks of it. The body of death to which Paul was bound. The old man who passed away. (Notice he never speaks of an older man...) The old has passed away. What is the old?

Paul said all men are slaves of sin. That isn't simply peccable. They are incapable of performing righteousness. All our righteousness is as filthy rags. Scripture is very clear. "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." An absolute statement. The one time where having ALL in a true/false statement doesn't mean it is false. Adam was capable of sin as a human. Even angels at one time were capable of sin. That is where "fallen angels" came from. Adam was the representative of all creation, of all humanity. When he fell, ALL humanity fell in him. All believers rise in Christ. I remember scripture making this kind of comparison between Adam and Christ. I'm going to ask you since no other Calvinists seem to want to answer.

I can see why they don't want to answer. You have no question/argument. This is a prophecy from the old testament. It tells us that in humanity there are none that are righteous, none that understand, none that seek after God, none that do good. All absolute definitive statements. Romans 3:12 is the part of the prophecy that tells us why. Other translations handle it better. Humanity has gone its own way. They have ALL gone their own way. They are TOGETHER become unprofitable. There is not a single one that does good, no not one. If they were once not sinful, it would say so.

Why are you considering this as part of the argument. He looked down upon the children of men to what? To see if there were any that understood (understood what?) and seek God. If any understand... God. The response is no, all men have gone aside (they do not understand and seek God). They all together (ALL TOGETHER) become filthy. There are none that do good, no not one. It really isn't that difficult to understand. The world was getting worse day by day. Abraham sought after God, yet he still sinned. He wasn't perfect. If not, why did God have to credit any righteousness to Abraham? For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. ALL. Not some. Jesus doesn't fit because Jesus was God and man. It is possible, technically, that Jesus could have sinned, but He was not a slave to sin as all humanity is. I speak solely to Jesus humanity. Jesus was the second Adam. Part of His right/ability to mediate for mankind is the fact that He experienced all that we experience, with the ever important words, without sin.

This has no place in the argument you are making. I understand that your desire is to destroy the consistency of scripture, but scripture is still consistent. As such, if you consider the context of scripture, you will learn that "righteous" in this case doesn't mean what you think it means. It just means they were not guilty of the particular sins that brought God to destroy the world with water. That is all. If you are still uncertain, read what Noah did after the flood. That should clear things up.
Are you dead? Obviously you are not totally departed.... right?
 
Romans 7: 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Romans 7: 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Therefore, under the premise that Children are not born sinners, they become sinners at the age of two when they go through that terrible twos stage.

Or whenever they are given a boundary and run past it anyway. How early is one supposed to childproof a house?
 
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Furthermore, total depravity ignores Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:17 separates the creation, which God created .. and Sin, that God didn't create.

Most theology does not account for this nuance.
 
Romans 7: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Paul is disassociating himself from his body, similar to 2 Corinthians 5:1 that refers to the physical body as a temporary dwelling.

Most of the calvin vs armin debate ignores that sin and the creation are separate, and that the body and the person are separate. This nuance is missed.
 
Romans 8 begins with the conclusion of the previous discussion.

1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

There is a distinction between the flesh and the spirit here, the dichotomy speaks of two laws, the law of walking in the spirit, and the law of "you sin you die."

What this means is covered later in the chapter and in other parts of the bible. However, the nuance of a second spirit person being born and maturing separate from the "flesh nature" appears to be lost on some.
 
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