The Hypostatic Union- the 2 Natures in Christ

[civic]

Since I haven't been here for a while, a joke I heard today. A Jewish father goes to his rabbi and says, You're not going to believe this. My son has left home and become a Christian. The rabbi looks at the man and says, well you're not going to believe this. My son also left home, and he also became a Christian. The man says, what are we going to do? The rabbi says pray to God. That's always the answer. So they pray to God and God says, Hey, you're not going to believe this...

The point I would make with that joke is that it speaks to Jesus as God's Son. As God's Son, that would, if kept separate, make Him God Jr. A second God. That, to me, completely defeats the purpose of being unitarian, and believing in Jesus. The word son isn't necessarily a biological term. It can also mean (if I remember correctly) the image of, or of the same substance. (Something like that.) So as the Son of God, He is also God, or a God. I believe God is One BEING, made up of three co-existing, co-eternal PERSONS. So no contradiction in terms. (Please correct my understanding if it is too far off.)

Your last sentence with the summary is spot on and thanks for the joke.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Hypostatic Union

However, since I'm never fond of Theological "Buzz words", I'd suggest that Jesus was essentially the same as EVERY BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN - i.e. Jesus had His HUMAN NATURE, and then was JOINED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT at John's baptism.

WE have a Human Nature, and are joined by the Holy Spirit whenever we're Born Again.

SO essentially EVERY CHRISTIAN has "two natures" The "OLD MAN", and the "Christ nature". Paul talks about that in Romans 7.

Jesus, however, was able to do something that we "could do" but won't consistently: Jesus, even though He was tempted in every respect AS WE ARE, NEVER ALLOWED HIS LUST TO CONCEIVE, and become SINFUL ACTIONS.

 

[praise_yeshua]

However, since I'm never fond of Theological "Buzz words", I'd suggest that Jesus was essentially the same as EVERY BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN - i.e. Jesus had His HUMAN NATURE, and then was JOINED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT at John's baptism.

WE have a Human Nature, and are joined by the Holy Spirit whenever we're Born Again.

SO essentially EVERY CHRISTIAN has "two natures" The "OLD MAN", and the "Christ nature". Paul talks about that in Romans 7.

Jesus, however, was able to do something that we "could do" but won't consistently: Jesus, even though He was tempted in every respect AS WE ARE, NEVER ALLOWED HIS LUST TO CONCEIVE, and become SINFUL ACTIONS.

There are many many problems with such claims as this.

Man has never been and still isn't (even after becoming a new creature) infused with many aspects of Divinity associated with the Divine Person of Jesus Christ.

You nor I have innate power relative to the King of Kings and Lord of Lord.
You nor I will never gain innate power relative to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

We will always be in need of Grace. Now and forever in the new creature. There will never be a scenario wherein we are innately self sufficient or in need of nothing external to ourselves.

There is a real need for theological understand of such teachings as the "Hypostatic Union". Not knowing the doctrine that you so flippantly dismiss has caused a great error to be present in your view of God.

It is a very important topic that very few are capable of accurately discussing because they really don't want to know the subject. Thusly, you flippantly dismiss the very doctrine you have a need to learn.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

There are many many problems with such claims as this.

Man has never been and still isn't (even after becoming a new creature) infused with many aspects of Divinity associated with the Divine Person of Jesus Christ.

However, man still (after being Born AGain), has the Christ nature living IN him/her, and the Holy Spirit ON them at God's discretion to give POWER in Ministry.

You nor I have innate power relative to the King of Kings and Lord of Lord.
You nor I will never gain innate power relative to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

However, Jesus did what He did in the power of the Holy Spirit, just like we have to do. HE said that "He could do nothing of himself" (John 5:19).
The DIFFERENCE IS that Jesus had the Holy Spirit WITHOUT MEASURE (John 3:34), while we have "Measured Holy Spirit / FAITH. (Rom 12:3)

We will always be in need of Grace. Now and forever in the new creature. There will never be a scenario wherein we are innately self sufficient or in need of nothing external to ourselves.

Yup - no problem there. No sense in trying to "make one".

There is a real need for theological understand of such teachings as the "Hypostatic Union".

"Hypostatic Union" is "theology", i.e. man's attempt at quantifying that about which we really know little. God is outside of our capability to really understand. But HEY!!! If tossing "Religious concepts" around makes you happy, then go for it!!

Not knowing the doctrine that you so flippantly dismiss has caused a great error to be present in your view of God.

And what DO YOU THINK the "error concerning my View of God" is???

 

[praise_yeshua]

However, man still (after being Born AGain), has the Christ nature living IN him/her, and the Holy Spirit ON them at God's discretion to give POWER in Ministry.

By all means, do what Christ did. Always please the Father. Always. You can't. You are not complete as Christ has always been. Christ has never been anything less than Perfect and fully Divine.

However, Jesus did what He did in the power of the Holy Spirit, just like we have to do. HE said that "He could do nothing of himself" (John 5:19).
The DIFFERENCE IS that Jesus had the Holy Spirit WITHOUT MEASURE (John 3:34), while we have "Measured Holy Spirit / FAITH. (Rom 12:3)

This is the message of those who seek to dishonor the Son. Jesus Christ has always been and has never ceased to be fully Divine. Never. Not even when He was robbed in flesh in the Incarnation. Never. The power He possessed Himself was never tied explicitly to the Spirit of God individually. You continue to show that you do not know the teachings of the Holy Trinity. If you did, you would not make these mistakes.

Men repeat what you've just declared to dishonor the rightful Glory due the Son.

"Hypostatic Union" is "theology", i.e. man's attempt at quantifying that about which we really know little. God is outside of our capability to really understand. But HEY!!! If tossing "Religious concepts" around makes you happy, then go for it!!

Do you know how many times this happens when debating doctrine. We are discussing doctrine. If you're going to appeal to what you believe "can't be known"...... then why in the world are you even discussing it?

And what DO YOU THINK the "error concerning my View of God" is???

Down playing the uniqueness of God's son to make him more like yourself than He actually is.

Images and representations are not "exact replicas". We have borne the image of the earthly. We shall possess the image of the heavenly but we will never be identical to the Son. Never. He out ranks us. He is better than us. He is alone has the power that He shares with others via His Benevolent Grace.

It is of Grace and never our own.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

We shall possess the image of the heavenly but we will never be identical to the Son.

Agreed, but that was never in question.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Agreed, but that was never in question.

It is when you compare Jesus Christ to humanity and the new creation "in" Jesus Christ.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I know we are close to one another in what we believe. I appreciate you sir!

 

[civic]

It is when you compare Jesus Christ to humanity and the new creation "in" Jesus Christ.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I know we are close to one another in what we believe. I appreciate you sir!

yes @Bob Carabbio is one of my favorite brothers online I have never met in person, I cannot wait to meet him in person in glory- the same with you

I have thought about trying to coordinate a get together with the group for a day or 2 somewhere just to hang out, meet each other and maybe have some kind of open forum discussion mixed in there. Maybe its just a pipe dream but many of us go back several years and even a couple of decades of interacting with each other on various forums.

 

[civic]

Hello Matthias,

I agree with you although I don't think anyone needs to be worried about being killed over it anymore. The Evangelical Church, its seminaries and commentaries have been pretty much a dumpster fire with regard to the Historic Christian Faith as found in the early creeds and as they relate to theology proper and Christology (and I mean specifically the incarnation). Evangelicals seem to have some postmodern operating system at times and believe they can call themselves Trinitarians and attach whatever definition and/or meaning they want to that. I had a huge disagreement with a former pastor who actually thought he was teaching Chalcedonian Christology when in fact he was clearly teaching an ontological kenotic Christology (which is also completely incompatible with the doctrine of the Trinity).

And the dumpster fire continues to get worse. According to the State of Theology in 2020, 30 percent of people identifying as Evangelicals agreed with the following statement

Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God.​

In 2022, 43 percent of Evangelicals agreed with this statement. The postmodern culture is affecting the thinking of not only people in the pew, but their pastors, and their seminary professors if they had any.

TheLayman

I'm resurrecting this

 

[civic]

Since I haven't been here for a while, a joke I heard today. A Jewish father goes to his rabbi and says, You're not going to believe this. My son has left home and become a Christian. The rabbi looks at the man and says, well you're not going to believe this. My son also left home, and he also became a Christian. The man says, what are we going to do? The rabbi says pray to God. That's always the answer. So they pray to God and God says, Hey, you're not going to believe this...

The point I would make with that joke is that it speaks to Jesus as God's Son. As God's Son, that would, if kept separate, make Him God Jr. A second God. That, to me, completely defeats the purpose of being unitarian, and believing in Jesus. The word son isn't necessarily a biological term. It can also mean (if I remember correctly) the image of, or of the same substance. (Something like that.) So as the Son of God, He is also God, or a God. I believe God is One BEING, made up of three co-existing, co-eternal PERSONS. So no contradiction in terms. (Please correct my understanding if it is too far off.)

How have you been ?

 

[Studyman]

"Hypostatic Union" is "theology", i.e. man's attempt at quantifying that about which we really know little. God is outside of our capability to really understand. But HEY!!! If tossing "Religious concepts" around makes you happy, then go for it!!

Thank you Bob. Some refreshing truth and sanity in a world filled with religious traditions and philosophies of men.

 

[synergy]

Thank you Bob. Some refreshing truth and sanity in a world filled with religious traditions and philosophies of men.

It's because of heretics like Arius and Nestorius and their attempt to hijack Christianity with their heresies that forced Christians to develop Christology and afterwards Pneumatology. The heretics and their heresies would have walked all over us if Christians had not stood up against them with councils. People can belittle the councils but little do they know that it was councils like the Nicean and Calcedon Councils that saved Christianity.

 

[Johann]

"Hypostatic Union" is "theology", i.e. man's attempt at quantifying that about which we really know little. God is outside of our capability to really understand. But HEY!!! If tossing "Religious concepts" around makes you happy, then go for it!!

You need to snap out of your slumber @Bob Carabbio

The hypostatic union, the theological doctrine stating that Jesus Christ is fully divine and fully human in one person, was not articulated in the precise terms of later councils (e.g., Chalcedon, 451 AD) by the early Church Fathers. However, many ECFs before Augustine provided the foundational ideas for this doctrine, emphasizing both the divinity and humanity of Christ. Here are significant quotes and insights from early Christian writings on the subject:

Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35–107 AD)
Quote: "There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible—even Jesus Christ our Lord." (Letter to the Ephesians, 7)
Significance: Ignatius explicitly affirms the union of divine and human natures in Christ, highlighting His incarnation as both fully God and fully man.

Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD)
Quote: "Being at the same time both God and Lord of all and man, He endured for us what He endured." (Dialogue with Trypho, 100)
Significance: Justin describes Jesus Christ as both divine and human, emphasizing His dual nature in the context of the atonement.

Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202 AD)
Quote: "The Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself." (Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 1)
Significance: Irenaeus reflects on the incarnation as the Word of God taking on human nature to redeem humanity, prefiguring the concept of the hypostatic union.

Tertullian (c. 160–225 AD)
Quote: "We see plainly the twofold state, which is not confounded but conjoined in one person—Jesus, God and man." (Against Praxeas, Chapter 27)
Significance: Tertullian's writings provide a clear assertion of the two natures of Christ, united in a single person, a foundational element of the hypostatic union.

Origen (c. 185–254 AD)
Quote: "The man Jesus, being truly man, and also God, is neither distinct from human nature nor from divine." (De Principiis, Book 2, Chapter 6)
Significance: Origen affirms that Jesus, fully human and fully divine, bridges the gap between the two natures in His person.

Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170–235 AD)
Quote: "Although He was God, He took flesh; and having been made man, He remained what He was—God." (Against Noetus, 17)
Significance: Hippolytus stresses the continuity of Christ's divinity even in His assumption of human nature.

Novatian (c. 200–258 AD)
Quote: "He is man, for He is of the Virgin; and He is God, for He is of God." (On the Trinity, Chapter 11)
Significance: Novatian emphasizes the dual origins of Christ's natures: His divinity from God and His humanity from Mary.

Key Themes in Early Church Thought:
Union Without Confusion: The Fathers consistently affirmed that the divine and human natures in Christ were united in one person without merging or altering either nature.
Purpose of the Incarnation: Many writings emphasized the incarnation as a means of salvation, with the divine Word taking on human nature to redeem it.
Foundation for Later Theology: While lacking precise terminology like "hypostasis," these early reflections laid the groundwork for the Chalcedonian Definition of 451 AD, which formalized the doctrine of the hypostatic union.

--and quickly!

J.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

You need to snap out of your slumber @Bob Carabbio

The hypostatic union, the theological doctrine stating that Jesus Christ is fully divine and fully human in one person, was not articulated in the precise terms of later councils (e.g., Chalcedon, 451 AD) by the early Church Fathers. However, many ECFs before Augustine provided the foundational ideas for this doctrine, emphasizing both the divinity and humanity of Christ. Here are significant quotes and insights from early Christian writings on the subject:

Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35–107 AD)
Quote: "There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible—even Jesus Christ our Lord." (Letter to the Ephesians, 7)
Significance: Ignatius explicitly affirms the union of divine and human natures in Christ, highlighting His incarnation as both fully God and fully man.

Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD)
Quote: "Being at the same time both God and Lord of all and man, He endured for us what He endured." (Dialogue with Trypho, 100)
Significance: Justin describes Jesus Christ as both divine and human, emphasizing His dual nature in the context of the atonement.

Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202 AD)
Quote: "The Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself." (Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 1)
Significance: Irenaeus reflects on the incarnation as the Word of God taking on human nature to redeem humanity, prefiguring the concept of the hypostatic union.

Tertullian (c. 160–225 AD)
Quote: "We see plainly the twofold state, which is not confounded but conjoined in one person—Jesus, God and man." (Against Praxeas, Chapter 27)
Significance: Tertullian's writings provide a clear assertion of the two natures of Christ, united in a single person, a foundational element of the hypostatic union.

Origen (c. 185–254 AD)
Quote: "The man Jesus, being truly man, and also God, is neither distinct from human nature nor from divine." (De Principiis, Book 2, Chapter 6)
Significance: Origen affirms that Jesus, fully human and fully divine, bridges the gap between the two natures in His person.

Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170–235 AD)
Quote: "Although He was God, He took flesh; and having been made man, He remained what He was—God." (Against Noetus, 17)
Significance: Hippolytus stresses the continuity of Christ's divinity even in His assumption of human nature.

Novatian (c. 200–258 AD)
Quote: "He is man, for He is of the Virgin; and He is God, for He is of God." (On the Trinity, Chapter 11)
Significance: Novatian emphasizes the dual origins of Christ's natures: His divinity from God and His humanity from Mary.

Key Themes in Early Church Thought:
Union Without Confusion: The Fathers consistently affirmed that the divine and human natures in Christ were united in one person without merging or altering either nature.
Purpose of the Incarnation: Many writings emphasized the incarnation as a means of salvation, with the divine Word taking on human nature to redeem it.
Foundation for Later Theology: While lacking precise terminology like "hypostasis," these early reflections laid the groundwork for the Chalcedonian Definition of 451 AD, which formalized the doctrine of the hypostatic union.

--and quickly!

J.

And???

 

[civic]

It's because of heretics like Arius and Nestorius and their attempt to hijack Christianity with their heresies that forced Christians to develop Christology and afterwards Pneumatology. The heretics and their heresies would have walked all over us if Christians had not stood up against them with councils. People can belittle the councils but little do they know that it was councils like the Nicean and Calcedon Councils that saved Christianity.

yes the birth places of unitarianism with arius.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Thank you Bob. Some refreshing truth and sanity in a world filled with religious traditions and philosophies of men.

Then stop talking about it if you don't understand it.

 

[civic]

Thank you Bob. Some refreshing truth and sanity in a world filled with religious traditions and philosophies of men.

And @Bob Carabbio affirms that Jesus is both God and man.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It's because of heretics like Arius and Nestorius and their attempt to hijack Christianity with their heresies that forced Christians to develop Christology and afterwards Pneumatology. The heretics and their heresies would have walked all over us if Christians had not stood up against them with councils. People can belittle the councils but little do they know that it was councils like the Nicean and Calcedon Councils that saved Christianity.

We do endlessly "retread" what has long been discussed in our history. Informed individuals know this. Those that believe themselves to be uniquely the "saviors of the world" are usually no more than a distraction.

 

[e v e]

However, man still (after being Born AGain), has the Christ nature living IN him/her, and the Holy Spirit ON them at God's discretion to give POWER in Ministry.

However, Jesus did what He did in the power of the Holy Spirit, just like we have to do. HE said that "He could do nothing of himself" (John 5:19).
The DIFFERENCE IS that Jesus had the Holy Spirit WITHOUT MEASURE (John 3:34), while we have "Measured Holy Spirit / FAITH. (Rom 12:3)

Yup - no problem there. No sense in trying to "make one".

"Hypostatic Union" is "theology", i.e. man's attempt at quantifying that about which we really know little. God is outside of our capability to really understand. But HEY!!! If tossing "Religious concepts" around makes you happy, then go for it!!

And what DO YOU THINK the "error concerning my View of God" is???

God does want His sons to understand...

just not through jumbly philosophical greek pagan terms like Hypostatic Union.

Sigh.

 

[e v e]

Most if not all modern christianity theology = pagan platonic philosophy
... a veiled way using a mix of christian buzz words together with pagan
philosophy as fundament.

Modern Christianity is not christian and uses
the Vatican fish religion Sacraments.. Every single one of them.