The "hearing" game that Calvinists play

[praise_yeshua]

It really is silly the lengths that some will go to ignore the obvious. One of the endless "talking points" of "Calvinism" is.....

"How do dead men hear?".......

Which is nothing more than a "red herring". We know because Paul actually answered himself in Romans 10:18 when dealing with the claims made against his Gospel.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard?

Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

So the answer is right there in front of them to discern and understand. However, "they" prefer to insist they've been specially targeted to "hear" what everyone else has heard.

I believe we can easily recognize the self serving nature of such beliefs.

The answer is YES... everyone has heard.

 

[TedT]

Maybe they heard the gospel in the beginning...?

1 John 2:7 I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. I cannot help but think that John was alluding to Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded?

 

[Rockson]

Just something I noticed today reading Lk 7:30

But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him. Lk 7:30

So it seems the will of God was that none would reject the will of God by refusing to accept John's message. Calvinists claim that it was the will of God that they do so. Maybe food for thought?

 

[TomL]

It really is silly the lengths that some will go to ignore the obvious. One of the endless "talking points" of "Calvinism" is.....

"How do dead men hear?".......

Which is nothing more than a "red herring". We know because Paul actually answered himself in Romans 10:18 when dealing with the claims made against his Gospel.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard?

Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

So the answer is right there in front of them to discern and understand. However, "they" prefer to insist they've been specially targeted to "hear" what everyone else has heard.

I believe we can easily recognize the self serving nature of such beliefs.

The answer is YES... everyone has heard.

Also
John 5:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Also
John 5:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing [comes by] the word of Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

It really is silly the lengths that some will go to ignore the obvious. One of the endless "talking points" of "Calvinism" is.....

"How do dead men hear?".......

Which is nothing more than a "red herring". We know because Paul actually answered himself in Romans 10:18 when dealing with the claims made against his Gospel.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard?

Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

So the answer is right there in front of them to discern and understand. However, "they" prefer to insist they've been specially targeted to "hear" what everyone else has heard.

I believe we can easily recognize the self serving nature of such beliefs.

The answer is YES... everyone has heard.

Jesus tells us who Hears the word of God, Spiritual hearing Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
All cannot hear Gods word, even the Living word Himself Jn 8:43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 

[TomL]

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing [comes by] the word of Christ.

yes

It is not infused or effectually caused

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

yes

It is not infused or effectually caused

Faith comes by hearing.
Hearing comes by the word of Christ.

In other words, hearing the Gospel accomplishes nothing unless Christ has first given you ears to hear.

 

[civic]

Faith comes by hearing.
Hearing comes by the word of Christ.

In other words, hearing the Gospel accomplishes nothing unless Christ has first given you ears to hear.

Except nowhere does it say that regarding the gospel. Can you quote a NT passage saying what you are claiming ? Thanks !

Oh and did Jesus disciples understand the gospel ?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Except nowhere does it say that regarding the gospel. Can you quote a NT passage saying what you are claiming ? Thanks !

Oh and did Jesus disciples understand the gospel ?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes by] the word of Christ.

That says it all right there if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

[TomL]

Faith comes by hearing.
Hearing comes by the word of Christ.

In other words, hearing the Gospel accomplishes nothing unless Christ has first given you ears to hear.

No

None of that appears in the text.

You eisegetically add the necessities of your theology to the text.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus tells us who Hears the word of God, Spiritual hearing Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
All cannot hear Gods word, even the Living word Himself Jn 8:43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

You are perverting what Jesus said.... however, be clear.....

Then why did you hear?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Got to love the games.

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not,

Notice the progression that Jesus establishes.......

ANY MAN, hear my words and believe not.

What does Jesus do?

I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

If ask why? There is no need to speculate at all. The reason is right there in the Scriptures.

Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
Joh 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

 

[civic]

Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes by] the word of Christ.

That says it all right there if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

And the elect/chosen/ saved disciples did not understand the gospel.

I guess they did not have ears to hear.

hope this helps !!

 

[brightfame52]

You are perverting what Jesus said.... however, be clear.....

Then why did you hear?

Its not perverted its the Truth. Jesus tells us who it is that hears [spiritually] the truth of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[TomL]

Jesus tells us who Hears the word of God, Spiritual hearing Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
All cannot hear Gods word, even the Living word Himself Jn 8:43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Jesus is noting why they do not hear his word- They do not hear God's word

In fact Jesus argues they do not have God as their father but the devil

John 8:40–55 (KJV 1900) — 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

The reason they do not believe him is they do not believe God

you ignore context

 

[civic]

Its not perverted its the Truth. Jesus tells us who it is that hears [spiritually] the truth of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

twisting scripture to support your theology by definition is perverting and twisting Gods word.

 

[civic]

Jesus is noting why they do not hear his word- They do not hear God's word

In fact Jesus argues they do not have God as their father but the devil

John 8:40–55 (KJV 1900) — 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

The reason they do not believe him is they do not believe God

you ignore context

yes Jesus makes that crystal clear in that passage. If they believed God they would believe Him but since they do not believe Jesus neither do they believe God.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus is noting why they do not hear his word- They do not hear God's word

In fact Jesus argues they do not have God as their father but the devil

John 8:40–55 (KJV 1900) — 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

The reason they do not believe him is they do not believe God

you ignore context

Jesus tells us who Hears the word of God, Spiritual hearing Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

All cannot hear Gods word, even the Living word Himself Jn 8:43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 

[TomL]

Jesus tells us who Hears the word of God, Spiritual hearing Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

All cannot hear Gods word, even the Living word Himself Jn 8:43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

sorry nothing there suggest you must be unconditionally selected to be of God

you are just assuming your theology

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-hearing-game-that-calvinists-play.1363/post-56236