The Great Tribulation

[The Rogue Tomato]

Why I believe the Olivet discourse refers to the future and not to the 70 AD siege:

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

The section in bold did not happen in 70 AD.

And Jesus says, 22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened." We have never been in a situation (yet) where it would be possible for no one to survive. It's possible that He is saying "no one in Israel would survive", but I leave that open to your interpretation.

In reference to the great tribulation, the primary focus is, in fact, on Israel. While the great tribulation may affect the world, Jesus says, "those who are in Judea flee to the mountains". He doesn't say "those in Rome flee to the sea" or give any other general warning to the world.

 

[civic]

Agreed

 

[DavP]

In reference to the great tribulation, the primary focus is, in fact, on Israel. While the great tribulation may affect the world, Jesus says, "those who are in Judea flee to the mountains". He doesn't say "those in Rome flee to the sea" or give any other general warning to the world.

Well, yes Lord Jesus does warn His servants in other parts of the world about those tribulation events...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

Who would Jesus be speaking about that are "in the countries"??? Did He only mean those who lived in the country side of the holy land, like just outside the city of Jerusalem? I don't think so. I think He was pointing to a much larger area of His servants with that.

 

[Joe]

. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

The section in bold did not happen in 70 AD.

Concerning v27, the Greek word that is used is often interpreted as vulture because some interpreters misunderstood what the Lord was foretelling. The Greek word ἀετός is eagle. The Romans worshiped the eagle because it was a symbol of the false god Jupiter. Their armies banners and staves had the eagle symbol and it was disgraceful for one to be lost in battle. The Lord was using a metaphor to describe where the dead Jewish nation is the Roman armies will gather. That most definitely happened in 70 AD.

ἀετός
aetos
Thayer Definition:
1) an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may to a vulture that resembles an eagle
2) an eagle as a standard (Roman Military)


"I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets." (Hos 12:10)

As for the celestial allegory, it is prophetic simile language that represents God executing His vengeance against a nation-kingdom. The same type of celestial allegory is used by Isaiah towards the destruction of Babylon, Ezekiel towards the destruction of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and in Joel against Jerusalem, and Revelation 6:12-17 describing calamity and destruction from the Lord's hand.

Isa 13:9-10, against Babylon, "Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light."

Isa 34:4, against Edom, "All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree. For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom, upon the people I have devoted to destruction."

Joel 2:28-32, against Jerusalem, “It will happen afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; and your sons and your daughters will prophesy. Your old men will dream dreams. Your young men will see visions. And also on the servants and on the handmaids in those days, I will pour out my Spirit. I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood, fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of LORD comes. It will happen that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be saved; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the remnant, those whom the LORD calls."

Interpreting our Lord's allegoric statement in the same way we interpret the celestial examples above, there is no doubt that our Lord was foretelling God's anger and wrath against Jerusalem as told to them in Matt 21 with the parable of the tenants, in Matt 22 with the parable of the wedding feast, and in Matt 23:32-36 where the Lord angerly tells the Pharisees and scribes "will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation."

We should not expect a literal celestial event since it is a simlitude referencing God's judgment and destruction, and especially so in Mathew 24 where the Lord was foretelling Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD. Luke 21:22 refers to it as the days of vengeance as written.

God Bless

 

[DavP]

Concerning v27, the Greek word that is used is often interpreted as vulture because some interpreters misunderstood what the Lord was foretelling. The Greek word ἀετός is eagle. The Romans worshiped the eagle because it was a symbol of the false god Jupiter. Their armies banners and staves had the eagle symbol and it was disgraceful for one to be lost in battle. The Lord was using a metaphor to describe where the dead Jewish nation is the Roman armies will gather. That most definitely happened in 70 AD.

ἀετός
aetos
Thayer Definition:
1) an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may to a vulture that resembles an eagle
2) an eagle as a standard (Roman Military)

Nah... that's a fallacious theory not related to what Jesus was saying.

The Luke 17:37 verse is a parallel Scripture to the Matthew 24:28 verse about wheresoever the "carcase" is, that's where the eagles will be gathered together. Jesus was NOT talking about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans. He was talking about the days of His future coming...

Luke 17:30-37
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV

Thus it is silly to think He was speaking of the 70 A.D. destruction event by the Romans.

Jesus' disciples asked Him "Where, Lord?" about those 1st ones 'taken', where they would be taken to? His answer was wheresoever a dead carcase is, that's where the fowls will be eating on them. That is... what a FOWL does with a dead carcase, don't ya know?

Why then is the word for "eagles" used? Because the 'eagle' symbol was used in The Old Testament to represent The LORD as an eagle with its wings outstretched in protection over His people (Deut.32:11).

To Edom, God said this using the 'eagle' symbol...

Jer 49:16
16 Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, and the pride of thine heart, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence, saith the LORD.
KJV

So the "eagle" symbol is used in God's Word as a symbol for being 'exalted'. In Ezekiel 17, God uses the eagle symbol for royalty, for king Zedekiah of Judah, and for the haughtiness of the king of Babylon.

Christ used the 'eagle' symbol for protection of the symbolic 'woman' (Church for the end) during the latter 1260 days linked to the time the serpent casts waters as a flood out of his mouth after the woman (see Rev.12:13-17).

And the Babylon Harlot in Rev.18 says she is no widow, and sits a queen, pointing to her being 'married' to a king (that is NOT Lord Jesus).

So wise up folks! Satan is coming to earth as a false-Messiah in Jerusalem, as a king, in place of our Lord Jesus Christ, working "great signs and wonders" to deceive the whole world with. He will exalt himself as God, like how God used the 'eagle' symbol for royalty in Ezekiel 17. Can't you guys figure out why God used the Babylon symbol in Revelation for the end also?

Down & Dirty Explanation -- the "eagles" idea in Luke 17:37 represents Satan and his host when he comes to be setup and exalted at the end as the unbelieving Jews' "king of the world" in Jerusalem. His servants in today's Jerusalem will set him up as king. And the deceived majority will believe it, including the deceived churches that are already supporting the Jew's plan to rebuild the temple.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Both the last two comments contain a very common but misguided attempt at explanation. Does no one investigate beyond the English TRANSLATIONS anymore? This forum has discussed this eagle/vulture issue in other threads. The proper answer has already been given there.

 

[DavP]

Brethren in Christ Jesus:
Beware of those who try to sway you away... from the simplicity of the Scriptures.

When someone only wants to argue the concept of "eagle/vulture" with the idea of translations and dictionaries, etc., as if they are saying one must be a language scholar to know the simplicity of God using a basic symbol, then you know they are trying to mask a clear and simple Truth in God's Word.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Brethren in Christ Jesus:
Beware of those who try to sway you away... from the simplicity of the Scriptures.

When someone only wants to argue the concept of "eagle/vulture" with the idea of translations and dictionaries, etc., as if they are saying one must be a language scholar to know the simplicity of God using a basic symbol, then you know they are trying to mask a clear and simple Truth in God's Word.

God give His Scripture in the language that He chose. It is the height of ignorance not to be interested in what those were. You don't have to be a language scholar as @DavP falsely states. There's so many helper tools available now. There's no excuse not to dive deeply into this issues - like a good Berean would.

 

[DavP]

Brethren in Christ Jesus:

Beware of those who 'try' to discredit the messenger while IGNORING the Bible Scripture. Those are wolves in sheep's clothing. They use that tactic in attempt to KEEP YOU AWAY FROM UNDERSTANDING THE SIMPLICITY THAT IS GOD'S WORD.

Those in Christ, understand that to be a good BEREAN, per those at Berea that Apostle Paul commended in Acts 17, it means READING GOD'S WORD IN SIMPLICITY. We do NOT have to be a BIBLE SCHOLAR to understand God's Word. If a Bible teacher called by GOD cannot give you the meaning of His Word in SIMPLICITY, then they are not really called by GOD.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Brethren in Christ Jesus:

Beware of those who 'try' to discredit the messenger while IGNORING the Bible Scripture. Those are wolves in sheep's clothing. They use that tactic in attempt to KEEP YOU AWAY FROM UNDERSTANDING THE SIMPLICITY THAT IS GOD'S WORD.

Those in Christ, understand that to be a good BEREAN, per those at Berea that Apostle Paul commended in Acts 17, it means READING GOD'S WORD IN SIMPLICITY. We do NOT have to be a BIBLE SCHOLAR to understand God's Word. If a Bible teacher called by GOD cannot give you the meaning of His Word in SIMPLICITY, then they are not really called by GOD.

God says what He means and means what He says. In the original languages. Human translators introduce errors - sometimes by ignorance and sometimes by intent. Anyone who discourages you from investigating the original text has an agenda to keep from knowing the true meaning of Scripture. BEWARE OF THOSE WOLVES. They don't know what they don't know.

 

[DavP]

Brethren in Christ Jesus:

Beware of those who TRY to make you believe you need to listen to THEM, because OTHER MEN make errors in Bible translations! You should easily smell a dirty fox by that kind of ploy!

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Brethren in Christ Jesus:

Beware of those who TRY to make you believe you need to listen to THEM, because OTHER MEN make errors in Bible translations! You should easily smell a dirty fox by that kind of ploy!

Slinging mud to see what sticks. I prefer to study the Word of God and let Him speak. Not sink the low level of calling names as so many do when they don't have much to say.

 

[Joe]

Nah... that's a fallacious theory not related to what Jesus was saying.

This is where I stopped. Please learn to interact civilly.

God Bless

 

[Joe]

Both the last two comments contain a very common but misguided attempt at explanation. Does no one investigate beyond the English TRANSLATIONS anymore? This forum has discussed this eagle/vulture issue in other threads. The proper answer has already been given there.

I would hope the proper understanding that was given is eagle since that is what is relevant to the parable.

God Bless

 

[Rockson]

Why I believe the Olivet discourse refers to the future and not to the 70 AD siege:

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

In the above verses you see Jesus talk about two things. The manner of his coming.....and the location of his coming. Notice he says his coming will not be some vague thing but clearly known....Not in the wilderness and NOT in the inner rooms. Other translations say secret places. Secret places? God knowing the future maybe knew a common belief would be a secret rapture? I think it's possible he was actually talking about that.

But no not in quite or secret way but very openly will he come......and he tells us the how here, "For as lightning that comes from the east to the west so will be the coming of the Son of Man" That's the manner he'll be coming and he also told us the where.....where there is a carcass the vultures will gather.....but remember.....he already told us in the chapter where a great persecution would take place....in Judea from verse 15 onwards.

My thoughts....it will all take place at the end of Rev 6 with the rapture in Rev 7. The 5th seal reveals about the tribulation/persecution and then he will come. Even talks about the sun and moon becoming dark as well which lines up with Matt 24.
They even exclaim at the end of Rev 6, for the great day of his wrath IS COME. The wrath doesn't actually start until the next chapter for God says to the angels don't do anything yet until I seal my servants. You can even read about the rapture results in Rev 7 too......John see a great multitude that know one could number.....standing now in heaven.......John even asks who they are and he's told....these are they which have come out of great tribulation. So there you go. As for me I really don't think it's hard to see.

 

[DavP]

In the above verses you see Jesus talk about two things. The manner of his coming.....and the location of his coming. Notice he says his coming will not be some vague thing but clearly known....Not in the wilderness and NOT in the inner rooms. Other translations say secret places. Secret places? God knowing the future maybe knew a common belief would be a secret rapture? I think it's possible he was actually talking about that.

What Bible translations talk about Jesus returning in "secret places"? You just made that up, didn't you?

In Matthew 24:26, Jesus was WARNING about those who come up to one of His servants and they say something like, "behold, He is in the secret chambers". That is NOT about Jesus being in some secret chamber (like the holy of holies in the temple). It is about the coming false-Christ that Jesus was warning about there...

Matt 24:26
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

 

[DavP]

Brethren in Christ:

When John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain started preaching the false Pre-trib Rapture theory, he at first pointed to Jesus coming 'in secret', because only the Church would be aware of it. He later changed his tune, as did his later followers, dropping that 'secret' idea altogether. But others picked up on it and began calling the theory a "secret rapture". Yet the idea was all made up, absolutely no Biblical support for the pre-tribulation rapture idea at all.

 

[civic]

Brethren in Christ:

When John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain started preaching the false Pre-trib Rapture theory, he at first pointed to Jesus coming 'in secret', because only the Church would be aware of it. He later changed his tune, as did his later followers, dropping that 'secret' idea altogether. But others picked up on it and began calling the theory a "secret rapture". Yet the idea was all made up, absolutely no Biblical support for the pre-tribulation rapture idea at all.

That’s the equivalent argument I can make with the reformation since it came very late in church history so it’s false if you believe anything having to do with the reformation and its doctrines.

 

[DavP]

That’s the equivalent argument I can make with the reformation since it came very late in church history so it’s false if you believe anything having to do with the reformation and its doctrines.

Did I even mention anything... about the Reformation in what I said? No, of course I did not. So why are you 'trying' to bring the Reformation into the conversation about the time of John Nelson Darby in 1830s Great Britain?

The Reformation happened in the 15th-16th centuries, not in Darby's era.

Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby were the first ones in 1830s Great Britain to preach the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in the Christian Church.

It doesn't matter what pre-trib scholars say about some monk in the earlier Catholic Church that came up with the theory. Irving and Darby were the 1st ones to preach it in a Christian Church. That means... for over 1,800 years, the Christian Church held to a Post-tribulational return of Christ and gathering of His Church. Yeah, even DARBY himself prior to the 1830s, preached a Post-tribulational coming by Christ to gather His Church. Then Darby got influenced by Edward Irving and the false pre-trib rapture theory. (See documentation by Dave McPherson's works)

 

[Rockson]

What Bible translations talk about Jesus returning in "secret places"? You just made that up, didn't you?

In Matthew 24:26, Jesus was WARNING about those who come up to one of His servants and they say something like, "behold, He is in the secret chambers". That is NOT about Jesus being in some secret chamber (like the holy of holies in the temple). It is about the coming false-Christ that Jesus was warning about there...

Matt 24:26
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

I put a focus on the word secret....meaning he wouldn't come back in some secret type of way......but even to your point about chambers which I called places. One movement of Christendom believe he did come in a secret place or in a secret way like the 7 Day Adventist. Jesus entered into the most holy place of the sanctuary in heaven....or some secret thing occurred which replaced the claim of Jesus coming to the earth which they held. ....well he did come or do something in 1844. Then there's JW that believe Jesus came back in 1914 in a secret way....his invisible presence. My simple point was all the talk of Jesus coming back in a secret way hasn't fared well in the past and goes against what Jesus said in the gospels.