The Great Tribulation

[civic]

Did I even mention anything... about the Reformation in what I said? No, of course I did not. So why are you 'trying' to bring the Reformation into the conversation about the time of John Nelson Darby in 1830s Great Britain?

The Reformation happened in the 15th-16th centuries, not in Darby's era.

Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby were the first ones in 1830s Great Britain to preach the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in the Christian Church.

It doesn't matter what pre-trib scholars say about some monk in the earlier Catholic Church that came up with the theory. Irving and Darby were the 1st ones to preach it in a Christian Church. That means... for over 1,800 years, the Christian Church held to a Post-tribulational return of Christ and gathering of His Church. Yeah, even DARBY himself prior to the 1830s, preached a Post-tribulational coming by Christ to gather His Church. Then Darby got influenced by Edward Irving and the false pre-trib rapture theory. (See documentation by Dave McPherson's works)

Close enough for comparison that both Darby and the reformation came late in church history so they are both wrong using your own logic.

hope this helps !!!

 

[DavP]

Close enough for comparison that both Darby and the reformation came late in church history so they are both wrong using your own logic.

hope this helps !!!

Your idea has no correlation in Darby's era at all, no more than for today; just because today there still are some Christian factions claiming the Reformer's ideas that the pope is the Antichrist, when that isn't true, does not mean Darby's preaching of a false pre-trib rapture had anything to do with the Reformation.

 

[civic]

Your idea has no correlation in Darby's era at all, no more than for today; just because today there still are some Christian factions claiming the Reformer's ideas that the pope is the Antichrist, when that isn't true, does not mean Darby's preaching of a false pre-trib rapture had anything to do with the Reformation.

Conflating again the fact is both Darby and the Reformation are the late kids on the block in church history. You can deny those facts all you want as that’s on you not me. We are 2000 years into church history and both the reformation 1500-1600 years after and Darby 1800 years after are a valid comparison.

hope this helps !!!

 

[DavP]

Conflating again the fact is both Darby and the Reformation are the late kids on the block in church history. You can deny those facts all you want as that’s on you not me. We are 2000 years into church history and both the reformation 1500-1600 years after and Darby 1800 years after are a valid comparison.

hope this helps !!!

No conflating. Simple fact is, Darby prior to the 1830s preached a Post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of the Church. And that had nothing... to do with the Reformation of the 15th-16th centuries.

 

[civic]

No conflating. Simple fact is, Darby prior to the 1830s preached a Post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of the Church. And that had nothing... to do with the Reformation of the 15th-16th centuries.

The fact is both are late in church history.

 

[DavP]

The fact is both are late in church history.

Still not seeing any Scripture support for your theory. Fact means Scripture support, which you have not provided any to prove what you said. And just saying things like, "well it's just a simple fact of church history" is actually a silly response, and shows a complete lack of Bible scholarship.

Did you invite me here thinking that you could just run over my coverage of God's Truth against men's theory of a Pre-trib Rapture by proof of His literal Scriptures? Obviously, you guessed wrong on that.

 

[civic]

Still not seeing any Scripture support for your theory. Fact means Scripture support, which you have not provided any to prove what you said. And just saying things like, "well it's just a simple fact of church history" is actually a silly response, and shows a complete lack of Bible scholarship.

Did you invite me here thinking that you could just run over my coverage of God's Truth against men's theory of a Pre-trib Rapture by proof of His literal Scriptures? Obviously, you guessed wrong on that.

I didn’t just invite people here who agree with me lol. Catholics , JWs, Calvinists , Unitarians, Modalists, Mormons, 7 Day Adventist’s , charismatics , preterists etc…. Are all people I disagree with that I invited.

 

[DavP]

I didn’t just invite people here who agree with me lol. Catholics , JWs, Calvinists , Unitarians, Modalists, Mormons, 7 Day Adventist’s , charismatics , preterists etc…. Are all people I disagree with that I invited.

Well, by the way I've been treated here by pre-tribbers, yourself included, it appears to me you only invited me thinking you could use me to further the false pre-trib rapture theory from men. And you have now convinced me of your doing exactly that, since you refuse to address my asking you to provide Scripture support for your claim about the 144,000, showing you have no intention of doing so.

I didn't come here to argue. So drop my name form your rolls please, I do not wish to associate here.

 

[civic]

Well, by the way I've been treated here by pre-tribbers, yourself included, it appears to me you only invited me thinking you could use me to further the false pre-trib rapture theory from men. And you have now convinced me of your doing exactly that, since you refuse to address my asking you to provide Scripture support for your claim about the 144,000, showing you have no intention of doing so.

I didn't come here to argue. So drop my name form your rolls please, I do not wish to associate here.

I invited you here to have a friendly place to debate others and to be respectful of the beliefs of others. Everyone here was invited for those sane reasons all 200 plus of them. What fun would a forum be where everyone was the same like clones or lemmings ?

 

[Obadiah]

Well, by the way I've been treated here by pre-tribbers, yourself included, it appears to me you only invited me thinking you could use me to further the false pre-trib rapture theory from men. And you have now convinced me of your doing exactly that, since you refuse to address my asking you to provide Scripture support for your claim about the 144,000, showing you have no intention of doing so.

I didn't come here to argue. So drop my name form your rolls please, I do not wish to associate here.

One thing I've noticed is the troublemakers here always seem to play the victim. Oh poor me. The guy says he didn't come here to argue yet he argues with everyone he interacts with, Go figure.

 

[mikesw]

Why I believe the Olivet discourse refers to the future and not to the 70 AD siege:

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

The section in bold did not happen in 70 AD.

And Jesus says, 22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened." We have never been in a situation (yet) where it would be possible for no one to survive. It's possible that He is saying "no one in Israel would survive", but I leave that open to your interpretation.

In reference to the great tribulation, the primary focus is, in fact, on Israel. While the great tribulation may affect the world, Jesus says, "those who are in Judea flee to the mountains". He doesn't say "those in Rome flee to the sea" or give any other general warning to the world.

I think what has been missed since day 36500 (i.e. the second century interpreters and beyond) is about audience relevance when interpreting the gospels. It does not appear likely or useful for Jesus to share Matt 24 with people who would not see this happen. Jesus' response is to the ideas raised in 23:37-39. The concern was about Jerusalem's fate and spoken to disciples who were Jewish. Nor did Jesus qualify this restatement of OT prophecy by saying that some of these events would be distant into the future. In a sense, to put these into a distant future, someone would have to explain what the relevance was and how Jesus explained something not pertinent to the Jews or the disciples.
Note that I am not denying that benefits accrue to gentiles in Christ. The gospels are testimony to who Christ is and what he did to those to whom he was sent. The details applied to gentiles have to be carefully sought out with the aid, especially , of Paul.

 

[TomL]

Why I believe the Olivet discourse refers to the future and not to the 70 AD siege:

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

The section in bold did not happen in 70 AD.

And Jesus says, 22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened." We have never been in a situation (yet) where it would be possible for no one to survive. It's possible that He is saying "no one in Israel would survive", but I leave that open to your interpretation.

In reference to the great tribulation, the primary focus is, in fact, on Israel. While the great tribulation may affect the world, Jesus says, "those who are in Judea flee to the mountains". He doesn't say "those in Rome flee to the sea" or give any other general warning to the world.

Compare with luke



The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times
21:5–36pp—Mt 24; Mk 13
21:12–17pp—Mt 10:17–22
5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”
8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”
10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.
12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


The New International Version (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2011), Lk 21:5–24.

up to this point it's all 70 A.D.

 

[Red Baker]

up to this point it's all 70 A.D.

Wrong, so wrong. 70 A.D. is not even allured to in the word of God, no where, it must be force into the word of God.

Preterism in any degree/form, is a lie. Full blown Preterism does more to corrupt the word of God than any eschatology system. Historicism is right behind them.

Premillennialism sound more like a science fiction movie that would make hollywood proud.

Idealist Amill is the truth of the scriptures and allow scriptures to flow perfectly in harmony with each other.

 

[TomL]

Wrong, so wrong. 70 A.D. is not even allured to in the word of God, no where, it must be force into the word of God.

Preterism in any degree/form, is a lie. Full blown Preterism does more to corrupt the word of God than any eschatology system. Historicism is right behind them.

Premillennialism sound more like a science fiction movie that would make hollywood proud.

Idealist Amill is the truth of the scriptures and allow scriptures to flow perfectly in harmony with each other.

Thanks for yourf unsupported opinion and failure to discuss the text

The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times
21:5–36pp—Mt 24; Mk 13
21:12–17pp—Mt 10:17–22
5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”
8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”
10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.
12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


The New International Version (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2011), Lk 21:5–24.

 

[Red Baker]

Thanks for yourf unsupported opinion and failure to discuss the text

The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times
21:5–36pp—Mt 24; Mk 13
21:12–17pp—Mt 10:17–22
5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”
8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”
10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.
12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


The New International Version (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2011), Lk 21:5–24.

NIV is a corrupt version of the word of God. It does not even know who killed Goliath!

The NIV says Elhanan killed Goliath.​

“In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver’s rod” (II Sam 21:19).

My youngest grandson who is soon to be six, knows who killed Goliath, why do you trust in a so-called bible that does not know? Tom, shame on you.

​

The NASV says Elhanan killed Goliath.​

“And there was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam” (II Sam 21:19).

The ESV says Elhanan killed Goliath.​

“And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, struck down Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam” (II Sam 21:19).

Try other versions – Elhanan killed Goliath. Even try the Masoretic Hebrew text – Elhanan again. But they are wrong, for we know David killed Goliath, and Elhanan killed Goliath’s brother Lahmi (I Sam 17:50-51; I Chr 20:5).

Why do modern Bibles have such an obvious error? Translators love money more than God, so they copy each other’s errors to protect their jobs and keep new versions coming every year. This verse was correctly translated 400 years ago in the King James Version, but today’s translators would have to get a real job, if they endorsed the KJV.

Here is the King James Version:​

“And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam” (II Sam 21:19).

The Lord blinded modern translators to expose their ignorance (I Cor 1:19-20; 3:19-20). And He providentially guided the KJV translators to give us this verse correctly, without errors or confusion. The KJV is consistent: David killed Goliath, and Elhanan killed Goliath’s brother Lahmi.

Peter said Scripture is “more sure” than God’s voice from heaven (II Pet 1:16-21), and this more sure Word of God is the King James Version. The versions with Elhanan killing Goliath in II Sam 21:19 are surely wrong!

Jesus said, “Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35). If your Bible was broken by this simple question about David and Goliath, you need to get rid of it, for the Lord has shown you that it is not Scripture.

Who killed Goliath in your Bible?

I'll come back and discuss some of the "corrupt scriptures you quoted~but I'll used God's word in doing so.

 

[TomL]

NIV is a corrupt version of the word of God. It does not even know who killed Goliath!

The NIV says Elhanan killed Goliath.​

My youngest grandson who is soon to be six, knows who killed Goliath, why do you trust in a so-called bible that does not know? Tom, shame on you.

​

The NASV says Elhanan killed Goliath.​

The ESV says Elhanan killed Goliath.​

Try other versions – Elhanan killed Goliath. Even try the Masoretic Hebrew text – Elhanan again. But they are wrong, for we know David killed Goliath, and Elhanan killed Goliath’s brother Lahmi (I Sam 17:50-51; I Chr 20:5).

Why do modern Bibles have such an obvious error? Translators love money more than God, so they copy each other’s errors to protect their jobs and keep new versions coming every year. This verse was correctly translated 400 years ago in the King James Version, but today’s translators would have to get a real job, if they endorsed the KJV.

Here is the King James Version:​

The Lord blinded modern translators to expose their ignorance (I Cor 1:19-20; 3:19-20). And He providentially guided the KJV translators to give us this verse correctly, without errors or confusion. The KJV is consistent: David killed Goliath, and Elhanan killed Goliath’s brother Lahmi.

Peter said Scripture is “more sure” than God’s voice from heaven (II Pet 1:16-21), and this more sure Word of God is the King James Version. The versions with Elhanan killing Goliath in II Sam 21:19 are surely wrong!

Jesus said, “Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35). If your Bible was broken by this simple question about David and Goliath, you need to get rid of it, for the Lord has shown you that it is not Scripture.

Who killed Goliath in your Bible?

I'll come back and discuss some of the "corrupt scriptures you quoted~but I'll used God's word in doing so.

Goliath is not the issue and what you post is a mere diversion

The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times
21:5–36pp—Mt 24; Mk 13
21:12–17pp—Mt 10:17–22
5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”
8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”
10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.
12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
'
Luke 21:5–24 (NASB 2020) — 5 And while some were talking about the temple, that it was decorated with beautiful stones and vowed gifts, He said, 6 “As for these things which you are observing, the days will come when there will not be left one stone upon another, which will not be torn down.” 7 They asked Him questions, saying, “Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?” 8 And He said, “See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not go after them. 9 And when you hear of wars and revolts, do not be alarmed; for these things must take place first, but the end will not follow immediately.” 10 Then He continued by saying to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, 11 and there will be massive earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrible sights and great signs from heaven. 12 “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, turning you over to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors on account of My name. 13 It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony. 14 So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; 15 for I will provide you eloquence and wisdom which none of your adversaries will be able to oppose or refute. 16 But you will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, other relatives, and friends, and they will put some of you to death, 17 and you will be hated by all people because of My name. 18 And yet not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives. 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The NASB reads the same
Are you going to address the issue
and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Jerusalem being trampled underfoot by the gentiles cannot fit into your endtime senerio

 

[Red Baker]

Goliath is not the issue and what you post is a mere diversion

Mere diversion? We haven't yet even started discussioning the subject~I just pointed out, that your false bible will lead you wrong, since it cannot even get simple important events correct, that even children know.

Jerusalem being trampled underfoot by the gentiles cannot fit into your endtime senerio

Well Mr. Prophet, how do you know what fits into my end time scenario, since you have never heard from me as of yet on this subject?

Tom, I will give you a postulated sequence or development of events as I understand them, much different from the average 21th century professor of rellgion~and, I will add, different from what I was first taught fifty years ago, as a young twenty six year old believer, eager to learn truth.

I first was taught premillennialism with my Scofield bible in my hand, as I was instructed to purchase~1974. Living on the very buckle of the bible belt in Greenville, S.C. with Bob Jones University; the Gospel hour broadcast with Dr. Oliver B. Greene; and Tabernacle Baptist college, with Dr. Harold Sightler, all well known and all living at the time I started out. Greenville. S.C. was the very bedrock of this teaching, which I held for around two to three years, when I no longer could make its teachings fit into what I was reading in the scriptures, so I abandoned that teaching for good around late seventies.

I beleive there are some very sincere and God fearing people still holding to this teachings, yet the teaching itself is against the scriptures and can easily be proven to be so. You can do this with one simple question for them: Which comes first, Christ, or the antichrist? (We will address the antichrist separately, since many are deceived on the meaning of antichrist) Premillennialism believes Christ will come first, yet Paul clearly said the man of sin will come first in 2nd Thessalonians two.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Very clear, our gathering together unto Christ will not happen until the man of sin be revealed.

I think we should first identify the man of sin before we take off and look at Matthew 24; Mark 13 and Luke 21.

I'll come back and start there. I have an outline of 2nd Thess 2, let me see if I can locate it~later.

 

[Red Baker]

Tom, before I start, let me be very clear, that there are heresies, many of them concerning this subject, which we must reject, while maybe not rejecting the men who hold them~let me explain myself by what I mean..............

Heresy, in a scriptural sense, may apply to any doctrine or sentiment held in opposition to bible truth, or subversive of the truth as it is in Jesus, and as set forth in the holy scriptures. Happy and highly favored of the Lord must that Christian be who is perfectly free from misconceptions as to the true meaning of every part of the scriptures of truth, if indeed such an one can be found on the earth, which we believe there are none. It is subversive of the teaching of the Spirit for us to denounce as a heretic, or make a brother an offender for a word, as we at present are in an imperfect state. We see but in part, we know but in part, and are not to tolerate in ourselves a censorious or criticising spirit towards our brethren. The magnitude of heresy is ascertained by its virulence and hostility to the truth, and by its tendency to overturn the faith of the disciples. Some were to be reproved, some rebuke sharply, and others to be delivered to Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

May God give us the spirit of discernment in dealing with those who disagree with us. We should be extra careful not to offend one of God's little ones~it would be better if we had not been born then to offend a true babe in Christ seeking the truth.

 

[TomL]

Mere diversion? We haven't yet even started discussioning the subject~I just pointed out, that your false bible will lead you wrong, since it cannot even get simple important events correct, that even children know.

Well Mr. Prophet, how do you know what fits into my end time scenario, since you have never heard from me as of yet on this subject?

Tom, I will give you a postulated sequence or development of events as I understand them, much different from the average 21th century professor of rellgion~and, I will add, different from what I was first taught fifty years ago, as a young twenty six year old believer, eager to learn truth.

I first was taught premillennialism with my Scofield bible in my hand, as I was instructed to purchase~1974. Living on the very buckle of the bible belt in Greenville, S.C. with Bob Jones University; the Gospel hour broadcast with Dr. Oliver B. Greene; and Tabernacle Baptist college, with Dr. Harold Sightler, all well known and all living at the time I started out. Greenville. S.C. was the very bedrock of this teaching, which I held for around two to three years, when I no longer could make its teachings fit into what I was reading in the scriptures, so I abandoned that teaching for good around late seventies.

I beleive there are some very sincere and God fearing people still holding to this teachings, yet the teaching itself is against the scriptures and can easily be proven to be so. You can do this with one simple question for them: Which comes first, Christ, or the antichrist? (We will address the antichrist separately, since many are deceived on the meaning of antichrist) Premillennialism believes Christ will come first, yet Paul clearly said the man of sin will come first in 2nd Thessalonians two.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Very clear, our gathering together unto Christ will not happen until the man of sin be revealed.

I think we should first identify the man of sin before we take off and look at Matthew 24; Mark 13 and Luke 21.

I'll come back and start there. I have an outline of 2nd Thess 2, let me see if I can locate it~later.

Are you not going to address the issue?

24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The NASB reads the same
Are you going to address the issue
and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Jerusalem being trampled underfoot by the gentiles refers to events which transpired during the first century

and will not fit into any known future end time scenario

 

[Red Baker]

Are you not going to address the issue?

I'm going to in order, but first things must be taught first, then it should be clear as to what the Lord meant when he said those words.

and will not fit into any known future end time scenario

It will fit perfectly. Tom, let me ask you a question~is 70 A.D. taught in any scriptures in God's word, other than what you think is written here? If the answer is no, then why would you think it is taught here? Context is what drives our understanding of what is being said, not the mere sound of words. Matthew 24; Mark 13 and Luke 21 all are speaking about the same timeline of events bringing us to the second coming of the Lord Jesus, not the destruction of Israel in 70 A.D.

Besides, without history being one's guide, no one would have ever known of 70 A.D. in Israel's destruction of their temple and their city~men rely on history for their understanding, and we know that history is written by victors who are very biased in their writings, and without question uninspired! I personally do not know what happened in 70 A. D. or 100 A.D. as far as that goes for I was not there and an eye witness of any events, and neither were you, ort any other man. Neither dates have anything to do with fulfilled bible prophecies as many believes.

Looking at Luke 21 whole context, I am convinced the Lord teaching is not to be taken in any way other than an WHOLE WORLD affect, that in any way can limit its words to the nation of Israel in the middle east.

Luke 21: 34-36~"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Tom, this is the closing words of the teaching of the Olivet Discourse~which tells me that all that were said in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21) has reference to the days (events) leading up to our Lord's return on the last day.

Let us consider those days leading up to the last day when Jesus shall return again to gather together his elect from the four winds of heaven and to destroy his enemies.