The fake REV "edition".

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
The so called Revised English Edition is a fake translation.

It is largely the work of one person named John Schoenheit of so called Spirit and Truth Fellowship "https://spiritandtruthonline.org/"

Which is a former "Church of God" denomination disciple that believes he is called to bring people "back" to the teachings of the apostles.

Which is a rather weird history. Notice how they claim the translation is a "ongoing" work. I quote "John".... (bold mine)

You can view our on-going translation work, the REV and Commentary, online at http://www.stfonline.org/rev

Notice the "about page".... for the translation.....


I quote....(bold mine)

"Translation Team
Over the years, numerous individuals have contributed to the work in various capacities based on their knowledge and skills. The core translation team consists of individuals who work together to produce an accurate, readable, and robust translation. Those serving on the translation team have training in the original languages and have extensive experience in biblical studies and theology."


Lets start with.....

WHAT TEAM? You can't list a team because it is largely the work of a single person from a cult member that has abandoned the "Church of God" denomination to attempt to convert "Christians" to Unitarianism.

@civic @synergy @Johann @Peterlag
 
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The so called Revised English Edition is a fake translation.

It is largely the work of one person named John Schoenheit of so called Spirit and Truth Fellowship "https://spiritandtruthonline.org/"

Which is a former "Church of God" denomination disciple that believes he is called to bring people "back" to the teachings of the apostles.

Which is a rather weird history. Notice how they claim the translation is a "ongoing" work. I quote "John".... (bold mine)

You can view our on-going translation work, the REV and Commentary, online at http://www.stfonline.org/rev

Notice the "about page".... for the translation.....


I quote....(bold mine)

"Translation Team
Over the years, numerous individuals have contributed to the work in various capacities based on their knowledge and skills. The core translation team consists of individuals who work together to produce an accurate, readable, and robust translation. Those serving on the translation team have training in the original languages and have extensive experience in biblical studies and theology."


Lets start with.....

WHAT TEAM? You can't list a team because it is largely the work of a single person from a cult member that has abandoned the "Church of God" denomination to attempt to convert "Christians" to Unitarianism.

@civic @synergy @Johann @Peterlag
Give me your expert review on this.

BESURAS HAGEULAH
ACCORDING TO
YOCHANAN

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]

J.
 
The so called Revised English Edition is a fake translation.

It is largely the work of one person named John Schoenheit of so called Spirit and Truth Fellowship "https://spiritandtruthonline.org/"

Which is a former "Church of God" denomination disciple that believes he is called to bring people "back" to the teachings of the apostles.

Which is a rather weird history. Notice how they claim the translation is a "ongoing" work. I quote "John".... (bold mine)

You can view our on-going translation work, the REV and Commentary, online at http://www.stfonline.org/rev

Notice the "about page".... for the translation.....


I quote....(bold mine)

"Translation Team
Over the years, numerous individuals have contributed to the work in various capacities based on their knowledge and skills. The core translation team consists of individuals who work together to produce an accurate, readable, and robust translation. Those serving on the translation team have training in the original languages and have extensive experience in biblical studies and theology."


Lets start with.....

WHAT TEAM? You can't list a team because it is largely the work of a single person from a cult member that has abandoned the "Church of God" denomination to attempt to convert "Christians" to Unitarianism.

@civic @synergy @Johann @Peterlag
Again, you don't respond to what we write. But attack the messenger.

1730788332684.jpeg
 
Again, you don't respond to what we write. But attack the messenger.
Massive and diabolic failure by the REV edition to properly translate to English the Greek masculine personal pronouns ουτος and αυτου in John 1:1-3.

1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
2 ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον
3 παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν

The proper translation of ουτος and αυτου are "He" and "Him", not "It". The Uncreated Word of God is not a thing, He is a He. Understand?

Thus, the REV's piss poor attempt to butcher John 1 has been exposed as a Judaizing Unitarianism attempt to butcher its contents. I hereby award the REV author the Butcher of the Week award. This was supposed to be awarded Yearly but there are so many deserving butchers out there that I have to now award it weekly.

1730803510913.jpeg
 
Massive and diabolic failure by the REV edition to properly translate to English the Greek masculine personal pronouns ουτος and αυτου in John 1:1-3.

1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
2 ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον
3 παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν

The proper translation of ουτος and αυτου are "He" and "Him", not "It". The Uncreated Word of God is not a thing, He is a He. Understand?

Thus, the REV's piss poor attempt to butcher John 1 has been exposed as a Judaizing Unitarianism attempt to butcher its contents. I hereby award the REV author the Butcher of the Week award. This was supposed to be awarded Yearly but there are so many deserving butchers out there that I have to now award it weekly.

View attachment 1061

J.
 
Here is what real scholars say about the NWT which is another. FAKE translation peddled by the JW's.

In regards to the JW's poor translation known as the New World Translation (NWT) keep in mind the translation committee for the NWT was made up of individuals unqualified to do translations. Here is the list with their backgrounds included:

Frederick W. Franz: Head of the translation committee and chief "translator." Took liberal arts sequence at University of Cincinnati; 21 semester hours of classical Greek, some Latin. Partially completed a two-hour survey course in Biblical Greek in junior year; course titled "The New Testament--A course in grammar and translation." Left in spring of 1914 before completing junior year. Self-taught in Spanish, biblical Hebrew and Aramaic. Entered Brooklyn headquarters facility of Watchtower Society in 1920. Probable ghost writer for J. F. Rutherford (2nd president of WTS) from late 1920s through 1942. Vice president of WTS from 1942 to 1977, president from 1977 until death in 1992 at age 99.

Franz writes in his autobiography: "What a blessing it was to study Bible Greek under Professor Arthur Kensella! Under Dr. Joseph Harry, an author of some Greek works, I also studied the classical Greek. I knew that if I wanted to become a Presbyterian clergyman, I had to have a command of Bible Greek. So I furiously applied myself and got passing grades" (The Watchtower, May 1, 1987, p. 24). Franz gives the impression that the bulk of his Greek studies were "Bible Greek" under "Professor Kensella" and that classical Greek was secondary under "Dr. Joseph Harry." The opposite is true. As mentioned above, Franz only took one 2-hour credit class of "Bible Greek" but 21 hours of classical Greek. According to the course catalog of 1911, Arthur Kensella was not a professor of Greek, as Franz wrote, but an "instructor in Greek." Kensella did not have a Ph.D. and he therefore taught entry-level courses.

Nathan H. Knorr
No training in biblical languages. Entered Brooklyn headquarters in 1923; 3rd president of WTS from 1942 to 1977. Died 1977 at age 72.

Milton G. Henschel
No training in biblical languages. Private secretary and traveling companion to N. H. Knorr from late 1940s until early 1970s. 4th president of WTS from 1992 to 2000. Died 2003 at age 82.

Albert D. Schroeder
No training in biblical languages. Took 3 years of mechanical engineering, unspecified language courses in college, dropped out in 1932 and soon entered Brooklyn headquarters. Registrar of "GileadSchool" from 1942 to 1959. Died 2006 at age 95.

Karl Klein
No training in biblical languages. Entered Brooklyn headquarters in 1925; member of Writing Dept. since 1950. Died 2001 at age 96.

George D. Gangas
No training in biblical languages. Greek-speaking Turkish national, entered Brooklyn headquarters in 1928 as a Greek translator from English to modern Greek publications. Died 1994 at age 98.

Franz was the only man capable of doing translation work. Gangas was a native Greek speaker, knew little of Koine Greek, and apparently helped out with a variety of non-translation tasks including reviewing the English grammar for continuity of expression. From all information published about him personally, one readily concludes that Knorr was the business administrator for the Translation Committee. Henschel might have been on it to take care of legal/secretarial matters. Schroeder and Klein did the copious footnotes (which included textual sources) and cross references and marginal notes, which in the original six volumes of the NWT were more extensive than in the 1984 edition.
[Source: Freeminds and various others]



Here is a Letter that Mantey wrote to the WTBS when they deliberately misquoted him trying to support their false translation

July 11, 1974

Dear Sirs:

I have a copy of your letter addressed to Caris in Santa Ana, California, and I am writing to express my disagreement with statements made in that letter, as well as in quotations you have made from the Dana-Mantey Greek Grammar.

(1) Your statement: "their work allows for the rendering found in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures at John 1:1." There is no statement in our grammar that was ever meant to imply that "a god" was a permissible translation in John 1:1.

A. We had no "rule" to argue in support of the trinity.

B. Neither did we state that we did have such intention. We were simply delineating the facts inherent in Biblical language.

C. You quotation from p. 148 (3) was a paragraph under the heading: "With the subject in a Copulative Sentence." Two examples occur here to illustrate that "the article points out the subject in these examples." But we made no statement in this paragraph about the predicate except that, "as it stands the other persons of the trinity may be implied ;in theos." And isn't that the opposite of what your translation "a god" infers? You quoted me out of context. On pages 139 and 140 (VI) in our grammar we stated: "without the article, theos signifies divine essence...'theos en ho logos' emphasizes Christ's participation in the essence of the divine nature." Our interpretation is in agreement with that in NEB and TED: "What God was, the Word was"; and with that of Barclay: "The nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God," which you quoted in you letter to Caris.

(2) Since Colwell's and Harner's article in JBL, especially that of Harner, it is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 "The Word was a god." Word-order has made obsolete and incorrect such a rendering.

(3) Your quotation of Colwell's rule is inadequate because it quotes only a part of his findings. You did not quote this strong assertion: "A predicate nominative which precedes the verb cannot be translated as an indefinite or a 'qualitative' noun solely because of the absence of the article."

(4) Prof. Harner, Vol 92:1 in JBL, has gone beyond Colwell's research and has discovered that anarthrous predicate nouns preceding the verb function primarily to express the nature or character of the subject. He found this true in 53 passages in the Gospel of John and 8 in the Gospel of Mark. Both scholars wrote that when indefiniteness was intended that gospel writers regularly placed the predicate noun after the verb, and both Colwell and Harner have stated that theos in John 1:1 is not indefinite and should not be translated "a god." Watchtower writers appear to be the only ones advocating such a translation now. The evidence appears to be 99% against them.

(5) Your statement in your letter that the sacred text itself should guide one and "not just someone's rule book." We agree with you. But our study proves that Jehovah's Witnesses do the opposite of that whenever the "sacred text" differs with their heretical beliefs. For example the translation of kolasis as cutting off when punishment is the only meaning cited in the lexicons for it. The mistranslation of ego eimi as "I have been" in John 8:58, the addition of "for all time" in Heb. 9:27 when nothing in the Greek New Testament support is. The attempt to belittle Christ by mistranslating arche tes kriseos "beginning of the creation" when he is magnified as the "creator of all things" (John 1:2) and as "equal with God" (Phil. 2:6) before he humbled himself and lived a human body on earth. Your quotation of "The father is greater than I am, (John 14:28) to prove that Jesus was not equal to God overlooks the fact stated in Phil 2:6-8. When Jesus said that he was still in his voluntary state of humiliation. That state ended when he ascended to heaven. Why the attempt to deliberately deceive people by mispunctuation by placing a comma after "today" in Luke 23:43 when in the Greek, Latin, German and all English translations except yours, even in the Greek in your KIT, the comma occurs after lego (I say) - "Today you will be with me in Paradise." 2 Cor 5:8, "to be out of the body and at home with the Lord."

These passages teach that the redeemed go immediately to heaven after death, which does not agree with your teachings that death ends all life until the resurrection. (Ps. 23:6 and Heb 1:10)

The above are only a few examples of Watchtower mistranslations and perversions of God's Word.

In view of the preceding facts, especially because you have been quoting me out of context, I herewith request you not to quote the Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament again, which you have been doing for 24 years. Also that you not quote it or me in any of your publications from this time on.

Also that you publicly and immediately apologize in the Watchtower magazine, since my words had no relevance to the absence of the article before theos in John 1:1. And please write to Caris and state that you misused and misquoted my "rule."

On the page before the Preface in the grammar are these words: "All rights reserved - no part of this book may be reproduced in any form without permission in writing from the publisher."

If you have such permission, please send me a photo-copy of it.

If you do not heed these requests you will suffer the consequences.

Regretfully yours,

Julius R. Mantey





Dr. Martin: I don’t know whether you’re aware of it, but there is not a single Greek scholar in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I did everything I could to find out the names of the translating committee of the NWT, and the Watchtower wouldn’t tell me a thing. Finally, an ex-JW who knew the committee members personally told me who they were, and the men on that committee could not read New Testament Greek; nor could they read Hebrew; nor did they have any knowledge of systematic theology — except what they had learned from the Watchtower. Only one of them had been to college, and he had dropped out after a year. He briefly studied the biblical languages while there.

Dr. Mantey: He was born in Greece, wasn’t he?

Dr. Martin: Yes, he read modern Greek, and I met him when I visited the Watchtower. I asked him to read John 1:1 in the Greek and then said, “How would you translate it?” He said: “Well, ‘the word was a god.”’ I said: “What is the subject of the sentence?” He just looked at me. So I repeated. “What is the subject of the sentence?” He didn’t know. This was the only person in the Watchtower to read Greek and he didn’t know the subject of the sentence in John 1:1. And these were the people who wrote back to you and said their opinion was as good as yours.

Dr. Martin: Often we find JW publications quoting scholars. Do they quote these people in context?

Dr. Mantey: No. They use this device to fool people into thinking that scholars agree with the JWs. Out of all the Greek professors, grammarians, and commentators they have quoted, only one (a Unitarian) agreed that ‘The word was a god.”

Dr. Martin: You have been quoted as saying that the translators of the NWT are “diabolical deceivers.”

Dr. Mantey: Yes. The translation is deceptive, and I believe it’s a terrible thing for a person to be deceived and go into eternity lost, forever lost because somebody deliberately misled him by distorting the Scripture!

Dr. Martin: What would you say to a JW who was looking for the truth?

Dr. Mantey: I would advise him to get a translation other than the NWT, because ninety-nine percent of the scholars of the world who know Greek and who have helped translate the Bible are in disagreement with the JWs. People who are looking for the truth ought to know what the majority of the scholars really believe. They should not allow themselves to be misled by the JWs and end up in hell.





The Critics Speak Out​


What do the critics have to say about the New World Translation Of The Holy Scriptures?

Edmund C. Gruss, Professor of History and Apologetics at Los Angeles Baptist College, offers five main criticisms of the book: 20 a) The use of paraphrasing in contradiction to the stated purpose. b) The unwarranted insertion of words not found in the Greek. Alexander Thomson makes a similar comment in a statement quoted earlier. c) Erroneous rendering of Greek words. d) Deceptive and misleading footnotes and appendix. e) Arbitrary use and misuse of capitals when dealing with the divine name. (For details of criticisms see footnote 20.) Gruss concludes that the New World Translation Of The Christian Greek Scriptures, "although outwardly scholarly, is plainly in many cases, just the opposite. Its purpose is to bring the errors of the Witnesses into the Word of God. This translation carries no authority except to its originators and their faithful followers, and should be rejected as a perversion of the Word of God." 21

Ray C. Stedman (internationally known author, Bible teacher, pastor, evangelist)

"A close examination, which gets beneath the outward veneer of scholarship, reveals a veritable shambles of bigotry, prejudice, and bias which violates every rule of Biblical criticism and every standard of scholarly integrity." 22

Walter Martin and Norman Klann (The late Dr. Martin was a leading Christian apologist, known internationally for his studies of the Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups.)

"Once it is perceived that Jehovah's Witnesses are only interested in what they can make the scriptures say, and not in what the Holy Spirit has already perfectly revealed, then the careful student will reject entirely Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower translation." 23

These authors claim that the New World Translation lacks scholarship, and, in fact, reflects scholastic dishonesty.

Anthony Hoekema:

"Their New World Translation of the Bible is by no means an objective rendering of the sacred text into modern English, but is a biased translation in which many of the peculiar teachings of the Watchtower Society are smuggled into the text of the Bible itself." 24

Dr. Hoekema was Professor of Systematic Theology, Calvin Theological Seminary, Grand Rapids, U.S.A., and the author of one of the most highly regarded reference works on the Jehovah's Witnesses.

F. F. Bruce: (Dr. Bruce is Professor of Biblical Criticism and Exegesis Emeritus, University of Manchester, England. He is a world renowned Biblical exegete who has issued his own translation of the the New Testament, and a number of scholarly works on New Testament themes. The Jehovah's Witnesses have quoted him as an authority on the New Testament on a number of occasions.)

"Some of its distinctive renderings reflect the Biblical interpretations which we have come to associate with Jehovah's Witnesses....Some of the renderings which are free from a theological tendency strike one as quite good..." 25

Bruce M. Metzger, Professor of New Testament Language and Literature at Princeton Theological Seminary, one of the world's leading authorities on the Greek language, and recognized as such by the Jehovah's Witnesses who quote him on occasion in a favorable way, wrote an article in 1950 pointing out the errors in many Christological passages in the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures. 26

H. H. Rowley, an eminent Old Testament scholar from England, wrote regarding the first volume of the New World Translation Of The Hebrew Scriptures. His comments should be compared to those of Dr. Goodspeed quoted earlier:

"The translation is marked by a wooden literalism which will only exasperate any intelligent reader -if such it finds -and instead of showing reverence for the Bible which the trans lators profess, it is an insult to the Word of God.... "...this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated." 27

The comments quoted above are but a sample of the many that have been written over the years. Many more are available in reference to specific details of the translation, especially the translation "...and the Word was a god." which appears in John 1:1c in the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures. Space precludes their inclusion in this paper. http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/publications/the-new-world-translation-and-its-critics.html

hope this helps !!!
 
and John 1:1

Scholar's opinion about the New World Translation​

About the New World translation : "...the Word was a god."​

Dr. J. R. Mantey (who is quoted on pages 1158-1159) of the Witnesses own Kingdom interlinear Translation): "A shocking mistranslation." "Obsolete and incorrect." "It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 'The Word was a god.'"

Dr. Bruce M. Metzger of Princeton (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature): "A frightful mistranslation." "Erroneous" and "pernicious" "reprehensible". "If the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists."

Dr. Samuel J. Mikolaski of Zurich, Switzerland: "This anarthrous (used without the article) construction does not mean what the indefinite article 'a' means in English. It is monstrous to translate the phrase 'the Word was a god.'"

Dr. Paul L. Kaufman of Portland, Oregon: "The Jehovah's Witnesses people evidence an abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar in their mistranslation of John 1:1."

Dr. Charles L. Feinberg of La Mirada, California: "I can assure you that the rendering which the Jehovah's Witnesses give John 1:1 is not held by any reputable Greek scholar."

Dr. James L. Boyer of Winona Lake, Indiana: "I have never heard of, or read of any Greek Scholar who would have agreed to the interpretation of this verse insisted upon by the Jehovah's Witnesses...I have never encountered one of them who had any knowledge of the Greek language."
Dr. William Barclay of the University of Glasgow, Scotland: "The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect is seen in their New testament translations. John 1:1 is translated: '...the Word was a god,' a translation which is grammatically impossible...It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."

Dr. F. F. Bruce of the University of Manchester, England: "Much is made by Arian amateur grammarians of the omission of the definite article with 'God' in the phrase 'And the Word was God.' Such an omission is common with nouns in a predicative construction...'a god' would be totally indefensible." [Barclay and Bruce are generally regarded as Great Britain's leading Greek scholars. Both have New Testament translations in print!]

Dr. Ernest C. Colwell of the University of Chicago: "A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb...this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas. 'My Lord and my God.' - John 20:28"

Dr. Phillip B. Harner of Heidelberg College: "The verb preceding an anarthrous predicate, would probably mean that the LOGOS was 'a god' or a divine being of some kind, belonging to the general category of THEOS but as a distinct being from HO THEOS. In the form that John actually uses, the word "THEOS" is places at the beginning for emphasis."

Dr. J. Johnson of California State University, Long Beach: "No justification whatsoever for translating THEOS EN HO LOGOS as 'the Word was a god.' There is no syntactical parallel to Acts 28:6 where there is a statement in indirect discourse; John 1:1 is direct....I am neither a Christian nor a trinitarian."

Dr. Eugene A. Nida, head of Translations Department, American Bible Society: "With regard to John 1:1, there is of course a complication simply because the New World Translation was apparently done by persons who did not take seriously the syntax of the Greek." [Responsible for the Good News Bible - The committee worked under him.]

Dr. B. F. Wescott (whose Greek text - not the English part - is used in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation): "The predicate (God) stands emphatically first, as in IV.24. It is necessarily without the article...No idea of inferiority of nature is suggested by the form of expression, which simply affirms the true deity of the Word...in the third clause 'the Word' is declared to be 'God' and so included in the unity of the Godhead."

Dr. J. J. Griesbach (whose Greek text - not the English part - is used in the Emphatic Diaglott): "So numerous and clear are the arguments and testimonies of Scriptures in favour of the true Deity of Christ, that I can hardly imagine how, upon the admission of the Divine authority of Scripture, and with regard to fair rules of interpretation, this doctrine can by any man be called in doubt. Especially the passage, John 1:1-3, is so clear and so superior to all exception, that by no daring efforts of either commentators or critics can it be snatched out of the hands of the defenders of the truth."

Mr. Jehovah's Witness: Are we to simply ignore these eminent Greek scholars, and stubbornly cling to the Man-made teachings of the Watchtower, none of whom had any education to speak of in Greek Grammar?!
The following is taken from the book: "Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses: "who love the truth" 2 Thess.2:10"
In the beginning was the Word.
But WHY was the Word misquoted? JOHN 1:1

This text `THE WORD WAS GOD' has been a problem for four presidents of Jehovah's Witnesses. C.T. Russell thought he found relief when in 1876 N.H. Barbour, an Adventist, introduced him to Wilson's EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT. Mr. Wilson never studied Biblical Greek in a college. He was a follower of John Thomas, a `false prophet' and founder of the Christadelphians. Thomas nor Wilson believed "THE WORD WAS GOD." In the interlinear feature of his book which is no translation at all, Wilson placed `a god' under theos. In his translation, however, of theos, he wrote: "the LOGOS was God."

F.W. Franz. the then current President of Jehovah's Witnesses, realized the deficiency of the DIAGLOTT, decided to translate his own Bible called THE NEW WORLD TRANSLATION OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES. Mr. Franz never studied biblical or koine Greek. He did not graduate from any college nor did he receive a Rhodes Scholarship as he claims. He translates the phrase "the Word was a god." In his KINGDOM INTERLINEAR he interlineates "god was the Word." Such a translation creates another god. "To us there is one God."

F.W. Franz found a translation that agrees with his, THE NEW TESTAMENT by Johannes Greber. (SEE MAKE SURE OF ALL THINGS p.489, 1965 revision.) Who was Johannes Greber? He is the author of another book: COMMUNICATION WITH THE SPIRIT WORLD OF GOD. In it Greber writes on page 300: "After I had convinced myself at the spiritistic meetings that God's spirits speak to men through mediums, as they had spoken to the early Christian communities, my first thought was to beg for full enlightment on these problems concerning Christ. Who was Christ? My request was granted, to the smallest details, and that knowledge thenceforth constituted the most precious possession of my soul. In what follows, I shall repeat the truths regarding Christ. His life, and his work of Redemption, as they were imparted to me by the spirit which taught them."The spirit said: "At that time you were told that Christ is the highest of the spirits created by God and the sole one to be created directly; Christ Himself was not God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world" 1 John 4:1.

Greber's translation is directly from the demon world. He is quoted in Watchtower publications. (See AID TO BIBLE UNDERSTANDING p. 1134)
In the Watchtower publications ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED OF GOD & BENEFICIAL p. 327 it states: "Note what Hebrew and Greek scholar Alexander Thomson has to say in his review of the NEW WORLD TRANSLATION: "The translation is evidently the work of skilled and clever scholars," THE DIFFERENTIATOR, April 1952.

This sentence is another WATCHTOWER lie. The late Mr. Alexander Thomson was not a Greek or Hebrew Scholar. He in fact did not even formally study Greek or Hebrew in any school according to his co-editor Dr. Frank Neil Pohorlak of Inglewood, CA. Mr. Thomson was employed in a bank in Scotland and did not believe that Jesus was God.

WHAT DO GREEK SCHOLARS THINK ABOUT THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESS TRANSLATION OF JOHN 1:1?

Dr. Julius R. Mantey: Calls the Watchtower translation of John 1:1 "A GROSSLY MISLEADING TRANSLATION." It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 `the Word was a god." But of all the scholars in the world, so far as we know, none have translated this verse as Jehovah's Witnesses have done."

Bruce M. Metzger, Professor of New Testament Language and literature at Princeton Theological Seminary said: "Far more pernicious in this same verse is the rendering,... `and the Word was a god,' with the following footnotes:"`A god,' In contrast with `the God'." It must be stated quite frankly that, if the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists. In view of the additional light which is available during this age of Grace, such a representation is even more reprehensible than were the heathenish, polytheistic errors into which ancient Israel was so prone to fall. As a matter of solid fact, however, such a rendering is a frightful mistranslation." - THEOLOGY TODAY April, 1953

Dr. J. J. Griesback: "So numerous and clear are the arguments and testimonies of Scriptures in favor of the true Diety of Christ, that I can hardly imagine how, upon the admission of the Divine authority of Scripture, and with regard to fair rules of interpretation, this doctrine can by any man be called in doubt. Especially the passage John 1:1 is so clear and so superior to all exception, that by no daring efforts of either commentators or critics can it be snatched out of the hands of the defenders of the truth."

Dr. Eugene A. Nida (Head of the Translation Department of the American Bible Society Translators of the GOOD NEWS BIBLE): "With regard to John 1:1 there is, of course, a complication simply because the NEW WORLD TRANSLATIONwas apparently done by persons who did not take seriously the syntax of the Greek."

Dr. William Barclay (University of Glasgow, Scotland): "The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect is seen in their New Testament translations. John 1:1 is translated: `...the Word was a god', a translation which is GRAMMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest." - THE EXPOSITORY TIMES Nov. 1953

Dr. B. F. Westcott (Whose Greek text is used in JW KINGDOM INTERLINEAR): "The predicate (God) stands emphatically first, as in John 4:24. It is necessarily without the article...No idea of inferiority of nature is suggested by the form of expression, which simply affirms the true Diety of the Word...in the third clause `the Word' is declared to be `God' and so included in the unity of the Godhead."

Dr. Ernest C. Colwell (University of Chicago): "A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb;...this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas. `My Lord and my God.'" John 20:28

Dr. F. F. Bruce (University of Manchester, England): "Much is made by Arian amateur grammarians of the omission of the definite article with `God' in the phrase `And the Word was God.' Such an omission is common with nouns in a predicate construction. `a god' would be totally indefensible."

Dr. Paul L. Kaufman (Portland, OR.): "The Jehovah's Witness people evidence an abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar in their mistranslation of John 1:1."

Dr. Charles L. Feinberg (La Mirada CA.): "I can assure you that the rendering which the Jehovah's Witnesses give John 1:1 is not held by any reputable Greek Scholar."

Dr. Harry A. Sturz: (Dr. Sturz is Chairman of the Language Department and Professor of Greek at Biola College) "Therefore, the NWT rendering: "the Word was a god" is not a "literal" but an ungrammatical and tendential translation. A literal translation in English can be nothing other than: "the Word was God." - THE BIBLE COLLECTOR July-December, 1971 .p12
 
Give me your expert review on this.

BESURAS HAGEULAH
ACCORDING TO
YOCHANAN

The prophets have long left the face of this earth. Why you would embrace Messianic prophecy from such a "Rabbi" as this is beyond me.

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]

J.

First, John never wrote those words. Bereshis is a alternate spelling of the Hebrew source. רֵאשִׁית is primarily "First". רֵאשִׁית is itself a witness to fact that "Hebrewisms" as Bereshit are not often the sum of their parts. It is a witness to how proto-Hebrew has largely been lost to humanity and reconstructed by lesser men.

You should embrace the extant Greek witnesses. Jesus read from a Greek manuscript as recorded in Luke 4 from Isaiah 49 and 61.
 
The prophets have long left the face of this earth. Why you would embrace Messianic prophecy from such a "Rabbi" as this is beyond me.



First, John never wrote those words. Bereshis is a alternate spelling of the Hebrew source. רֵאשִׁית is primarily "First". רֵאשִׁית is itself a witness to fact that "Hebrewisms" as Bereshit are not often the sum of their parts. It is a witness to how proto-Hebrew has largely been lost to humanity and reconstructed by lesser men.

You should embrace the extant Greek witnesses. Jesus read from a Greek manuscript as recorded in Luke 4 from Isaiah 49 and 61.
I have to smile-yup, you have put a smile on my face for today.

J.
 
First, John never wrote those words. Bereshis is a alternate spelling of the Hebrew source. רֵאשִׁית is primarily "First". רֵאשִׁית is itself a witness to fact that "Hebrewisms" as Bereshit are not often the sum of their parts. It is a witness to how proto-Hebrew has largely been lost to humanity and reconstructed by lesser men.
I am still smiling-

Contextual Understanding of 'Bereshit':

While it is noted that Bereshit (בְּרֵאשִׁית) is often understood to mean "in the beginning," it is crucial to emphasize that this term encapsulates a foundational theological concept that is deeply rooted in the Hebrew Scriptures. The term is derived from the root רֵאשִׁית, which indeed can denote the concept of "first" or "beginning." However, in the context of Genesis 1:1, it carries the connotation of the initiation of time and creation itself, establishing the framework for all that follows.

The Nature of the Dvar Hashem:

The assertion that the Dvar Hashem (Word of God) was both "with Hashem" and "was Hashem"
aligns with the theological principles found in the prologue of John's Gospel.

John 1:1-3 mirrors the concepts found in Jewish wisdom literature, particularly Proverbs 8:30, which describes Wisdom (Chochmah) as being present with God at creation. This relationship indicates a profound connection between God's Word and His essence.

The Importance of the Term 'Dvar':

The Hebrew term Dvar (דָּבָר) translates to "word" and is not merely a lexical item but represents the active power and creative force of God. In Jewish thought, the Dvar Hashem is understood to convey God's will and purpose in creation and revelation, thus serving as an essential aspect of understanding God's relationship with the world.

John's Theological Intent:

It is essential to recognize that the Gospel of John was written with a specific theological intent, aiming to express the divinity of Christ in relation to the Father. The opening verses of John are deliberately crafted to echo Genesis, establishing a parallel between the creation narrative and the incarnation of the Word. This connection is significant for understanding the early Christian interpretation of Jesus as the preexistent Word through whom all things were made.

Intertextual Relationships:

The references to Psalms and Proverbs that is provided serve to strengthen the argument that the concept of the Word (Memra) in John draws from rich, intertextual traditions. For instance, Psalm 33:6 emphasizes the creative power of God's Word, while Proverbs 30:4 explores the mystery of God's name and attributes, reinforcing the notion that the Word is intimately linked with the divine essence.
Proto-Hebrew and Historical Linguistics:

Your assertion regarding proto-Hebrew and its reconstruction is a point of linguistic debate. While it is true that ancient languages evolve and can be complex, the understanding of terms like Bereshit remains anchored in established Hebrew grammar and syntax. The nuances of language and interpretation should be recognized, and the significance of Bereshit as it appears in Genesis should be honored in its theological implications rather than merely as a linguistic artifact.

In summary, the discussion surrounding the Dvar Hashem and the interpretations drawn from John 1 should be approached with an understanding of the theological, linguistic, and historical contexts. The claims about Bereshit and the Dvar emphasize the deep interrelationship between the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament, affirming the continuity of God's revelation through His Word.

But hey, thanks for your "honest" review-Lol!

J.
 
I am still smiling-

Contextual Understanding of 'Bereshit':

While it is noted that Bereshit (בְּרֵאשִׁית) is often understood to mean "in the beginning," it is crucial to emphasize that this term encapsulates a foundational theological concept that is deeply rooted in the Hebrew Scriptures. The term is derived from the root רֵאשִׁית, which indeed can denote the concept of "first" or "beginning." However, in the context of Genesis 1:1, it carries the connotation of the initiation of time and creation itself, establishing the framework for all that follows.

Mock all you will. You're reading after Goble. It is not your own work. You are repeating a Jewish Pentecostal Calvinist.

So take this slow.............Show the me the word "Bereshit" in any extant "Hebrew" manuscript. It is not there. What is there is רֵאשִׁית.

All you've done is blindly accept Goble's theology.

So lets review.

Genesis 1:1 we have רֵאשִׁית

John 1:1 we have ἐν ἀρχή

Notice the similarities in the Phoenician alphabet. Do your own work. Don't just repeat Phillip Goble to me.

Where is Goble's second and third witness?

I'll wait.
 
John's Theological Intent:

Don't you love when someone tries to put words in the writing of John the Beloved. He doesn't need any help..... "Intent". You don't know John.

It is essential to recognize that the Gospel of John was written with a specific theological intent, aiming to express the divinity of Christ in relation to the Father. The opening verses of John are deliberately crafted to echo Genesis, establishing a parallel between the creation narrative and the incarnation of the Word. This connection is significant for understanding the early Christian interpretation of Jesus as the preexistent Word through whom all things were made.

There are odd mixtures to be found among Messianic Jews. They love to keep one foot in many different "worlds".

Intertextual Relationships:

The references to Psalms and Proverbs that is provided serve to strengthen the argument that the concept of the Word (Memra) in John draws from rich, intertextual traditions. For instance, Psalm 33:6 emphasizes the creative power of God's Word, while Proverbs 30:4 explores the mystery of God's name and attributes, reinforcing the notion that the Word is intimately linked with the divine essence.
Proto-Hebrew and Historical Linguistics:

John wrote in Greek and used a Greek OT of Psalms and Proverbs which is "a times" dramatically different than the script you prefer. I'm making a technical argument relative to the etymology of words. You're all over the place here. Don't pretend that "Hebrew has always been Hebrew." What I believe is important to me. I'm not going to fabricate anything contrary to fact to try and establish my belief.

Your assertion regarding proto-Hebrew and its reconstruction is a point of linguistic debate. While it is true that ancient languages evolve and can be complex, the understanding of terms like Bereshit remains anchored in established Hebrew grammar and syntax. The nuances of language and interpretation should be recognized, and the significance of Bereshit as it appears in Genesis should be honored in its theological implications rather than merely as a linguistic artifact.

There is no debate. Jews need to embrace the fact that they've changed just like the remainder of us mere humans. We know the Greek language. There is overwhelming information relative to knowing the Greek language compared to proto-Hebrew.

In summary, the discussion surrounding the Dvar Hashem and the interpretations drawn from John 1 should be approached with an understanding of the theological, linguistic, and historical contexts. The claims about Bereshit and the Dvar emphasize the deep interrelationship between the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament, affirming the continuity of God's revelation through His Word.

But hey, thanks for your "honest" review-Lol!

J.

No. You do not have an original script written by the hand of Moses. We have ancient archeological witness that predates Hebrew's journey into Aramaic. Even then, there are witnesses that prove that there are competing "streams" of text relative to the Torah throughout history. The same happened with your preference in the Talmud. There is no debate. If you want to know God through language, you better get familiar with Greek.
 
Massive and diabolic failure by the REV edition to properly translate to English the Greek masculine personal pronouns ουτος and αυτου in John 1:1-3.

1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
2 ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον
3 παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν

The proper translation of ουτος and αυτου are "He" and "Him", not "It". The Uncreated Word of God is not a thing, He is a He. Understand?

Thus, the REV's piss poor attempt to butcher John 1 has been exposed as a Judaizing Unitarianism attempt to butcher its contents. I hereby award the REV author the Butcher of the Week award. This was supposed to be awarded Yearly but there are so many deserving butchers out there that I have to now award it weekly.

View attachment 1061
I who am an expert on understanding what we call the spirit of Christ often refer to it as him because it's tied to the living Christ and it's the living Christ I'm tied to. But it's really not Christ inside of me, but rather it's his spirit and that spirit in me is not God in me or Jesus Christ in me nor does that make 2 of me. It's God's spirit inside of me that He calls the spirit of His son and that is an it. There are other things in me like bones which are an it. My skin is an it. And again, the gift of God's spirit in me is an it. Here's some Scripture on it...

Acts
the Spirit said unto him
Agabus signified by the Spirit
Paul was pressed in the spirit
instructed in the way of the Lord and being fervent in the spirit
Paul purposed in the spirit
bound in the spirit
who said to Paul through the Spirit
were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake
Stephen calling upon God and saying Lord Jesus receive my spirit
while Paul waited for them at Athens his spirit was stirred in him
was instructed in the way of the Lord and being fervent in the spirit
 
.Show the me the word "Bereshit" in any extant "Hebrew" manuscript. It is not there. What is there is רֵאשִׁית.
Not mocking you-

Your claim that "Bereshit" is not in any extant Hebrew manuscripts is misleading.

In fact, בְּרֵאשִׁית (Bereshit or B'reshit), meaning "In the beginning," is indeed found in the Hebrew Bible, specifically in Genesis 1:1. This is the opening word of the Torah, and it appears in ancient Hebrew manuscripts, including the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic Text.

Breakdown of "Bereshit" (בְּרֵאשִׁית)
בְּ (be) is a prefix meaning "in" or "at."
רֵאשִׁית (reshit) means "beginning" or "first," derived from the root רֹאשׁ (rosh), meaning "head" or "chief."
So, בְּרֵאשִׁית means "in the beginning" and is recorded in standard Hebrew manuscripts as בְּרֵאשִׁית in Genesis 1:1.

Hebrew Manuscripts and Evidence
The Masoretic Text (circa 7th–10th centuries CE), the authoritative Hebrew text of the Jewish Bible, contains "Bereshit" at Genesis 1:1.
Dead Sea Scrolls (circa 3rd century BCE to 1st century CE) include fragments with Genesis 1:1 in its recognizable form, including בְּרֵאשִׁית.
Summary

The word "Bereshit" does appear in extant Hebrew manuscripts, as it opens Genesis in the Torah. It is historically and linguistically accurate to say that בְּרֵאשִׁית is a well-documented Hebrew word with rich theological and cultural significance.

So you are wrong here.
All you've done is blindly accept Goble's theology.
Nope, I use it with my Messianic brothers and sisters-powerful and the OJB is well known in Israel.
Genesis 1:1 we have רֵאשִׁית

John 1:1 we have ἐν ἀρχή

Notice the similarities in the Phoenician alphabet.
No problem here-

Both רֵאשִׁית (reshit) in Genesis and ἀρχῇ (archē) in John mean "beginning," setting the framework for foundational creation accounts in both passages.
In both verses, these terms introduce a narrative that speaks to an origin or initial act—Genesis describes the beginning of the cosmos, while John introduces the preexistent Word (Logos) as foundational to creation and divine purpose.
Phonetic Parallels:

The Hebrew רֵאשִׁית (reshit) and Greek ἀρχῇ (archē) share similar phonetic structures. While the exact sounds differ, both words are bisyllabic with an initial sound that conveys the sense of "beginning" or "chief."

The root רֹאשׁ (rosh) in Hebrew, meaning "head" or "chief," resonates with the Greek ἀρχή (archē), which also connotes beginning, origin, and even authority in classical Greek thought.
Alphabetical Similarities
Both Hebrew and Greek scripts derive from Phoenician, an ancient Semitic script that was widely influential across the Mediterranean and surrounding regions. As a result, early forms of Greek letters were adapted directly from the Phoenician alphabet, which also closely resembles ancient Hebrew in structure and form.

Visual Forms: The letters that form רֵאשִׁית in Hebrew and ἀρχῇ in Greek can be traced back to similar Phoenician symbols.

The ר (resh) in Phoenician resembles the Greek Ρ (Rho) and eventually the Latin "R."
The Phoenician א (Aleph) resembles the Greek Α (Alpha), both representing the initial or primary sound in the respective alphabets.
ש (Shin), while not directly mirrored in Greek, has an appearance similar to Σ (Sigma) in its Phoenician origins.

Summary of Parallels
The shared linguistic and cultural lineage between Hebrew and Greek, both of which were shaped by the ancient Phoenician alphabet, is reflected in the form and concept of these terms. The Hebrew רֵאשִׁית (reshit) and Greek ἀρχῇ (archē) share both a meaning as "beginning" and a phonetic similarity that traces back to their common Phoenician influence. This connection deepens the conceptual relationship between Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1, emphasizing both passages' foundational roles in their respective Scriptures.
You're reading after Goble. It is not your own work. You are repeating a Jewish Pentecostal Calvinist.
I use the Orthodox Jewish Bible as a secondary source for comparing scriptures, rather than as my primary Bible. Make sense?

J.
 
Not mocking you-

Your claim that "Bereshit" is not in any extant Hebrew manuscripts is misleading.

Please pay attention to what I wrote. The word "Bereshit" is not found in any reference you gave. Thusly, what I said is EXACTLY true.
You then go "off script" with conjecture and interpretation to try to inject "Bereshit" into the manuscript evidence. You can't take a word that has it origins in English and inject that word into Genesis 1:1 as if they are exactly the same thing. They're not. "Bereshit" has a ton of baggage associated with it.

Do you even realize that Bereshit is an attempt to vocalize Hebrew in written form? It appeals to English pronunciations. Phonics. Please draw clear lines in this discussion.

Hebrew Manuscripts and Evidence
The Masoretic Text (circa 7th–10th centuries CE), the authoritative Hebrew text of the Jewish Bible, contains "Bereshit" at Genesis 1:1.
Dead Sea Scrolls (circa 3rd century BCE to 1st century CE) include fragments with Genesis 1:1 in its recognizable form, including בְּרֵאשִׁית.

Don't use a 9th century fabricated text as evidence. Produce the images of the Dead Sea Scroll to confirm your claims. There are only a few fragments of Genesis 1.


Lay it out for me. Give me you "expert assessment".

Don't believe what you read. This battle lives at the manuscript level.
 
Please pay attention to what I wrote. The word "Bereshit" is not found in any reference you gave. Thusly, what I said is EXACTLY true.
You then go "off script" with conjecture and interpretation to try to inject "Bereshit" into the manuscript evidence. You can't take a word that has it origins in English and inject that word into Genesis 1:1 as if they are exactly the same thing. They're not. "Bereshit" has a ton of baggage associated with it.
Friend, this has been a good day so far-until our conversation began. Which Hebrew Bible are you reading? Are you suggesting that Bereshit is NOT found in the Hebrew Scriptures? Also, what baggage do you think is associated with the word Bereshit?



The information I gave you is 100% correct-now, answer my question please.

J.
 
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Friend, this has been a good day so far-until our conversation began. Which Hebrew Bible are you reading? Are you suggesting that Bereshit is NOT found in the Hebrew Scriptures? Also, what baggage do you think is associated with the word Bereshit?

The information I gave you is 100% correct-now, answer my question please.

J.

No it isn't. I asked for an actual digital image of any manuscript with Bereshit. Go for it. I know HOW to study. I know how evidence is constructed. Pretend you're before a judge trying to convince the judge you're right. Don't assume anything. Start from the beginning. Not the end. Start with the manuscript evidence.

I like you. I do. We share common beliefs but you a hard time actually defending what you believe. You should abandon Goble. You're wasting your time in what he has produced. It is lead you in the wrong direction. I'm going to start a thread on his work.
 
No it isn't. I asked for an actual digital image of any manuscript with Bereshit. Go for it. I know HOW to study. I know how evidence is constructed. Pretend you're before a judge trying to convince the judge you're right. Don't assume anything. Start from the beginning. Not the end. Start with the manuscript evidence.

I like you. I do. We share common beliefs but you a hard time actually defending what you believe. You should abandon Goble. You're wasting your time in what he has produced. It is lead you in the wrong direction. I'm going to start a thread on his work.
No, you didn’t ask me for any “digital images” until just now. Again, are you suggesting that בְּרֵאשִׁית (bereshit)/רֵאשִׁית (reshit) is not in the Hebrew Bible? What Hebrew Bible are you reading?

I couldn’t care less if you want to start a thread about Goble and the OJB-I use it, whether you like it or not.

Now, please answer the question since it seems like you’re backpedaling.

J.
 
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