The Eternal Son

TibiasDad said:
God is necessarily eternal
Jesus is God
Jesus is necessarily eternal
QED

Doug
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Jesus is not God therefore he is not eternal. So Jesus is not really a Son? Jesus is not really begotten? Jesus is not a firstborn? Jesus didn't receive eternal life? The only way you can get around these plain truths presented by the bible is if you obscure what they are about with philosophy.
 
Runningman said:
Jesus is not God therefore he is not eternal. So Jesus is not really a Son? Jesus is not really begotten? Jesus is not a firstborn? Jesus didn't receive eternal life? The only way you can get around these plain truths presented by the bible is if you obscure what they are about with philosophy.
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I respect your commitment to Scripture, but you really need to be open to the idea Christ may be something more in Scripture.

If a verse comes that could possibly be interpreted in more than one way, prior commitments and presuppositions hold sway.

This is why we must turn to prayer first of all, because these truths ultimately must come by revelation from God himself.
 
TibiasDad said:
Being a son is just as much a present tense reality as was his being given. The Messiah was thought of by God as his Son in Isa 9:6.
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Doug, the Son given, is the same as the everlasting Father!

Isaiah 9:6​

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Without controversary great is the mystery of godliness. The Word in the beginning which was God, period, without any qualifications, joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God, making himself equal with God in his eternal Divine nature as God. Being the only begotten Son, in the manner in which he was begotten is what makes Jesus equal with God, and even his enemies understood this point.

John 10:30-33​


“I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”

The only way Jesus is the everlasting Father of all things, (and he is) is that he is the God of Genesis 1:1, that was made flesh in the person of Jesus of Narareth. God who is a Spirit that lives in eternity, always has, all ways will, that can never change, yet took upon him flesh a blood in the person of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was conceived in time around two thousand years ago according to the testimony of the scriptures.
 
Red Baker said:
Doug, the Son given, is the same as the everlasting Father!
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Hold up, you aren't Modalist are you?

That phrase is tricky and better translated as "Father of [the] everlasting," which points to redemption in the resurrection.
 
TibiasDad said:
The prophecy doesn’t speak of the becoming of a son, it speaks of a son being given. Not just a male child being born, but a son being given in order to be born.

Being a son is just as much a present tense reality as was his being given. The Messiah was thought of by God as his Son in Isa 9:6.

Doug
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the Apostle John does not agree for he opens the Gospel with Elohim Word from Genesis 1:1-3
@civic
 
DavidTree said:
the Apostle John does not agree for he opens the Gospel with Elohim Word from Genesis 1:1-3
@civic
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keep reading since the Eternal Son and the Word are one in the same.

plus I can play devils advocate and collapse your John 1:1 word. I can argue against the Trinity better than any non Trin on this forum.
 
@Diaerner
Dizerner said:
That phrase is tricky and better translated as "Father of [the] everlasting," which points to redemption in the resurrection.
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Please explain what you are saying?

There's nothing tricky about Isaiah 9:6, very much straight forward....and the word therein agrees with the scriptures overall teachings, which tells me that the translation iS just the way the Holy Ghost gave it.
 
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civic said:
keep reading since the Eternal Son and the Word are one in the same.

plus I can play devils advocate and collapse your John 1:1 word. I can argue against the Trinity better than any non Trin on this forum.
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lol - with me you have no ammo to defeat the Truth = John 1:1

You can certainly try!!!
 
DavidTree said:
lol - with me you have no ammo to defeat the Truth = John 1:1

You can certainly try!!!
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And you have no ammo to defeat the truth regarding the Eternal Son, Eternal Father. This works both ways. :)

well you cannot prove the word in John 1:1 is nothing more than Gods spoken word in Genesis 1. God spoke the world into existence through His spoken word- God said ( his spoken word) let there be light. God spoke the world into existence. Gods word means He speaks things that are not into being. So John 1:1 is nothing more than Gods spoken word used to create all things. Gods word is Gods instrument used in creation. God said and God did though His voice- the spoken word.

the meaning of logos

Lexical Summary
logos: Word, speech, message, account, reason, doctrine
Original Word: λόγος
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: logos
Pronunciation: LO-gos
Phonetic Spelling: (log'-os)
KJV: account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work
NASB: word, words, statement, message, speech, account, matter
Word Origin: [from G3004 (λέγω - said)]

1. something said (including the thought)
2. (by implication) a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive
3. (by extension) a computation
 
Red Baker said:
Please explain what you are saying?
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Sure, The Hebrew is "avi ad," which means "Father of the again."

Hebrew uses olam ve ad for eternity, but sometimes as a shorthand it uses olam or ad.

Olam ve ad literally means "to the horizon (indefinite limit) and again," to kind of express indefinite duration, equivalent to the Greek's "age of ages" or sometimes in shorthand "to the age," the one singular age that outlasts the others.

What this means is that "Everlasting Father" is too simplistic a handling of the words here.

Father can also mean "originator" as is the case in "the father of all those who work in metal."

It makes for sense for the text to be describing the Son's functions here as the originator of our everlasting life.
 
DavidTree said:
lol - with me you have no ammo to defeat the Truth = John 1:1

You can certainly try!!!
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the truth is I have been debating unitarians for over 4 decades on a regular basis so I know all the arguments and can argue against the Trinity better than they can.

a person is taught in college to learn both sides of the debate because they do not know beforehand which side of the debate they will be called upon to defend. I know both sides of the Trinity/Unitarian debate very well. :) And I can do this without using any form of eisegesis, but using exegesis from the text. :)

you can laugh out loud all you want but you will not be able to defend your position from John 1:1 or Genesis 1 regarding the word.

you opened up the can of worms so lets see how well you do defending your pov.
 
civic said:
And you have no ammo to defeat the truth regarding the Eternal Son, Eternal Father. This works both ways. :)

well you cannot prove the word in John 1:1 is nothing more than Gods spoken word in Genesis 1. God spoke the world into existence through His spoken word- God said ( his spoken word) let there be light. God spoke the world into existence. Gods word means He speaks things that are not into being. So John 1:1 is nothing more than Gods spoken word used to create all things. Gods word is Gods instrument used in creation. God said and God did though His voice- the spoken word.
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When we submit to the correct Truth of the specific word = Elohim = it automatically defines the Word as Elohim

"Elohim spoke the world into existence" is completely different from: "God spoke the world into existence"

'Elohim' is PLURAL and 'God' is SINGULAR = follow the Holy Spirit, who is the Author of the Holy Scriptures = aka Spirit of Truth
 
DavidTree said:
When we submit to the correct Truth of the specific word = Elohim = it automatically defines the Word as Elohim

"Elohim spoke the world into existence" is completely different from: "God spoke the world into existence"

'Elohim' is PLURAL and 'God' is SINGULAR = follow the Holy Spirit, who is the Author of the Holy Scriptures = aka Spirit of Truth
Click to expand...
no elohim in John 1:1 with logos. logos is the speech used buy God to create- God said Genesis 1 each day of creation and spoke the world into existence.

Lexical Summary
logos: Word, speech, message, account, reason, doctrine
Original Word: λόγος
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: logos
Pronunciation: LO-gos
Phonetic Spelling: (log'-os)
KJV: account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work
NASB: word, words, statement, message, speech, account, matter
Word Origin: [from G3004 (λέγω - said)]

1. something said (including the thought)
2. (by implication) a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive
3. (by extension) a computation
 
Dizerner said:
Sure, The Hebrew is "avi ad," which means "Father of the again."

Hebrew uses olam ve ad for eternity, but sometimes as a shorthand it uses olam or ad.

Olam ve ad literally means "to the horizon (indefinite limit) and again," to kind of express indefinite duration, equivalent to the Greek's "age of ages" or sometimes in shorthand "to the age," the one singular age that outlasts the others.

What this means is that "Everlasting Father" is too simplistic a handling of the words here.

Father can also mean "originator" as is the case in "the father of all those who work in metal."

It makes for sense for the text to be describing the Son's functions here as the originator of our everlasting life.
Click to expand...
If you combine all the possible definitions, as you described, they all agree with NT Scripture = dwell on that
 

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