TibiasDad
Active Member
Unto us a child is born! Unto us a son is given!
The Son was given to us in the form of a baby who was born. The human aspect is new, not the son that is given.
Doug
The Eternal Son
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
The Son was given to us in the form of a baby who was born. The human aspect is new, not the son that is given.
Doug
civic
Active Member
Ditto
dwight92070
Active Member
That is a prophecy of the future incarnation. It does not say that He was the Son back then. But John 1:1 gives us the details. It was actually the Word that became flesh, not the Son of God. When the Word became flesh, THEN He was called the Son of God by Gabriel. When He became the Son of God, then He was given to Israel and then He was sent into the world.
TibiasDad
Active Member
You don’t call someone something that they are not. This is not like running for President and you win. This is not a circumstantial role. To say “he will be called the Son of God” is not to say he will become the Son of God”.
Doug
dwight92070
Active Member
Sure it is. "... and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God." Which means that he wasn't called that before, which again agrees with John 1:1, where He is called "The Word" and 1 John 1:2, where He is called "The eternal life".
You said "You don’t call someone something that they are not."
That is not true, we do that all the time. How old was President Trump when he entered the military school?
Obviously he wasn't the president back then. But we still refer to him as the president, because that is what we know him to be today, even though back then, he was decades from becoming the President.
Likewise, Jesus can say that He, the Son of God, was with the Father, sharing His glory before the world was, even though He didn't become the only begotten Son of God until He was conceived in, and born from Mary's womb. John 17:5 What Jesus appears to be saying is that He is the same Spirit now as He was back then.
The same could be said of Jesus when He said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56) and "before Abraham was born, I AM." John 8:58 Was Jesus called "Jesus" back then? No. Likewise, it appears that He was not called The Son of God back then. We know that He was the Word in verse 58 and could have been called Melchizedek during the time of verse 56.
I think we really do have an issue here of some people who do not understand how the English language can be used and understood.
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Runningman
Active Member
Is the Son of God the Son of Man and is he just as much of a human now as he was when he was born? Please read what the Bible says before you reply. If you get this wrong I am going to disprove the eternality of Jesus.
Dizerner
Active Member
To be fair your point cuts both ways.
You can say "winning the popular vote in 2024, Trump is now president."
That does not say he was never president before, logically.
TibiasDad
Active Member
With all due respect, my brother, I could say the same thing about your approach. But to your point, that is why understanding the Greek is extremely helpful.
Yes!
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
God does not change. What he is in all aspects of his being has always been and will always be. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, so the Son of God was such from the beginning as well. Thus, the Father prophesied through Isaiah “unto us a son is given”!
Doug
Runningman
Active Member
The human Jesus is the son of God, but he's begotten. Since he's a son of God then he isn't eternal. Eternal sonship is not discussed in Scripture for any of God's children.
John 5
25Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself. 27And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
TibiasDad
Active Member
@Runningman
I just got in, but will reply to this tomorrow, the Lord willing. You are dead wrong.... @dwight92070 is dead on!
TibiasDad
Active Member
Trump wasn’t called President in military school. He is called President after he had been elected. And when speaking about the past, such as military school, of the current man we don’t speak as if he was called President then.
But “unto us a son is given” is a present tense statement. So sonship is a present tense reality in this OT passage. God is speaking of the coming messiah when he speaks of him as a son in the present tense and time.
Doug
DavidTree
Active Member
CORRECT
And there is no mention of a Son in Heaven prior to His Incarnation.
EXCEPT in Prophecy and prophetical visions.
Therefore we have a Eternal Elohim in Heaven prior to His Incarnation.
We know that The Eternal Elohim is Spirit.
Question: Which Spirit spoke to Moses???
DavidTree
Active Member
Of course he is "dead wrong" and that is why he cannot SEE
DavidTree
Active Member
This is what i have been trying to show to @civic and @TibiasDad
It is the Incarnation where 'The Son of God' BEGINS = because HE was the Word that was God in the beginning.
TibiasDad
Active Member
The prophecy doesn’t speak of the becoming of a son, it speaks of a son being given. Not just a male child being born, but a son being given in order to be born.
Being a son is just as much a present tense reality as was his being given. The Messiah was thought of by God as his Son in Isa 9:6.
Doug
civic
Active Member
And you are both wrong regarding the Son
