The Eternal Son
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DavidTree
Active Member
How is you do not SEE what is Spoken by the angel in Luke 1:35
It has EVERYTHING to do with "417 trillion times 5198 billion times 17 gazillion years before Adam"
Here LOOK-n-SEE = Jeremiah 30:15 & Luke 1:35
For the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel, has said: “By repentance and rest you would be saved; your strength would lie in quiet confidence—but you were not willing.”
The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
So the Holy One to be born will be called the Son of God.
@101G open your heart and SEE my Brother in Christ
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FreeInChrist
Active Member
Are you saying that all that time ago, the Son was not there?
Are you saying all that time ago , the Son was there but not called the son?
Are you saying all that time ago He was not the begotten Son because that came later?
Are you saying ... what are you saying?
DavidTree
Active Member
All that time ago was ELOHIM/Plural = Genesis 1:1
at some point in Eternity, Elohim Decided THEY would Create
This is Told us from the Scriptures and Why They Created
DavidTree
Active Member
When did THEY decide on FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT = no one knows when BUT we do know WHY
DavidTree
Active Member
CORRECT
How, Why, When did ELOHIM establish what we know as FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT ???
No one knows for ELOHIM did not tell us =THEY do not have to!!!
What we do know is what we have been Told = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"
IAM the Elohim of your fathers:
Elohenu Abraham = FATHER
Elohenu ISaac = only begotten SON
Elohenu Jacob = HOLY SPIRIT
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Okay....
But
At His last Passover Seder, Messiah prayed: Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was (John 17:5). Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where I am, and to see My glory, the glory You have given Me because You loved Me before the creation of the world (John 17:24).
So, does this indicate that the Son was the Son before Adam? I think it does.
Got Questions, again
The doctrine of eternal Sonship simply affirms that the second Person of the triune Godhead has eternally existed as the Son. In other words, there was never a time when He was not the Son of God, and there has always been a Father-Son relationship within the Godhead. This doctrine recognizes the idea of sonship is not merely a title or role that Christ assumed at some specific point in history, but is the essential identity of the second Person of the Godhead. According to this doctrine, Christ is and always has been the Son of God.
DavidTree
Active Member
Two AGREEMENTS here with you
YES to your statement with the understanding of we are not privy to when ELOHIM had Their Counsel Meeting amongst THEMSELVES
“Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
Remember the former things of old,
For I am Elohim, and there is no other;
I am Elohim, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’ - Isaiah 46:8-10
DavidTree
Active Member
From ETERNITY this "doctrine of eternal Sonship" cannot be proven from Scripture and is speculation.
EXCEPT where it has it's beginning in Genesis = from Genesis forward is the Eternal Elohim who became the only begotten of the FATHER = in Time according to Prophecy = Psalm 2:7 & Luke 1:35
Once ELOHIM established THEIR Counsel it became Eternal and Irrevocable
Therefore, Elohim has chosen for us to know the Eternal Father/Son/Holy Spirit beginning in Genesis.
@civic
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DavidTree
Active Member
@civic @FreeInChrist = Post 389 UPdated
Family relationship.
dwight92070
Active Member
Luke 1:35 "The angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.' "
The reason Jesus was called the Son of God, according to the angel Gabriel, was because the Holy Spirit came upon Mary, and the power of the Most High overshadowed her. So apparently He wasn't called the Son of God before that. It appears that He was called the Word before He was born into this world.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
That has always been my point until the discussions here began.
Got Questions says this https://www.gotquestions.org/God-doing.html
What was God doing before He created the universe.
Answer
Our finite minds find it hard to comprehend that before the universe was created, God existed alone. We know from John 1:1 that Jesus also existed: “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The preincarnate Christ was intimately united with the Father, so as to partake of His glory and to be appropriately called God. He has Himself explained it in John 17:5: “And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
We also know that the Holy Spirit was present before we were created. Genesis 1:2 describes the Spirit “hovering over the face” of the dark and formless earth. So, before time even existed, God existed in three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Trinity existed in perfect harmony and flawlessness, having all they needed in one another. David said in Psalms 16:11 that "joy and pleasures forever more" are in the presence of God. That means to be in the presence of God carries with it an overwhelming sense of joy, fulfillment, and pleasure. Before creation, God felt complete joy and fulfillment as He perfectly beheld and communed with Himself. God has and always will experience complete joy because He has complete and perfect knowledge of Himself.
So before He created the universe, God experienced absolute satisfaction in Himself. God dwelt joyfully alone in eternity as the Trinity. These three were together in fellowship with one another from all eternity. They loved each other. We know at some point they discussed the redemption of mankind (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Timothy 1:9; John 17:24), but everything else lies in mystery
And then I read this about eternal generation... (Which I have posted twice in completion already yesterday and if
you want to read it all https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-generation.html.
There are many links but this one is the most understandably concise explanation... but I encourage a search for yourself.
From the above link.
The doctrine of eternal generation essentially teaches that God the Father eternally and by necessity generates or begets God the Son in such a way that the substance (the divine essence) of God is not divided. In other words, there is a communication of the whole, indivisible substance of the Godhead so that God the Son is the exact representation (or express image) of God the Father. There is still one divine essence that eternally exists in two persons through eternal generation.
Not that I am persuaded 100% to change my mind but the more I read I am 95% there.
It could be... but I have not read this... that when " "The angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.' " it was for the reason that as Jesus was not an angel or a spirit from the sky but walking the earth , the name/title of Son was applied so to emphasize prophesy fulfilled.
civic
Active Member
He was called the Son before the Incarnation. I have demonstrated that with plenty passages where Jesus calls Himself the Son before creation, before the Incarnation as do the Apostles in their writings.
dwight92070
Active Member
Civic, I have looked at almost all of your verses. I do not see what you do. You have to ignore what Gabriel said to Mary before Jesus was conceived in her womb, in order to come up with your conclusion.
Gabriel tells us the reason that He would be called the Son of God - because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit coming upon her and the power of the Most High overshadowing her. Gabriel also told her what to name Him - Jesus.
Yes, the Son is eternal, but He wasn't always called the Son. Prior to the incarnation, He was the Word.
My understanding is, there was no "Jesus" before He was conceived and born - only the Word. Actually John also calls Him "the eternal life". However the Spirit of Jesus was and is the Spirit of the Word, Who is eternal - but not flesh and blood.
There was no only-begotten Son in heaven prior to His becoming begotten, at His birth. How could He have already been begotten (born) in heaven? He became God's ONLY begotten Son only when Mary gave birth to Him.
His name - Jesus - is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Why? Because God had not yet become a man - the man Jesus.
It was the Word Who was sent into the world - "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." John 1:14 God did send the Son into the world - after He became the Son, at His birth.
Notice it doesn't say that "Jesus became flesh", rather "the Word became flesh". The flesh and blood body of Jesus did not always exist. His Spirit did always exist as the Word.
Psalm 2:7 and 11-12 seem to be prophecies concerning the Son. So is Proverbs 30:4 and Isaiah 9:6. Again, none of these call Him Jesus, because the man Jesus was not born yet. When the Word became flesh, born from Mary's womb, that little boy was called Jesus. Paul explains Psalm 2:7 as a prophecy of Christ's resurrection. So none of these verses indicate that the only begotten Son of God existed in their day. Rather, they were looking forward to when the Son of God would be born, crucified and resurrected.
Consider what Jesus said, "Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." and "Father, glorify Your Son." John 17:1 and 5
Well, "before the world was" was a time when God was not yet Jesus' Father and Jesus Himself was not yet God's Son. What existed back then? John 1:1 tells us "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." There's no mention of a Father or of an only begotten Son named Jesus, before the world was.
But when Jesus spoke John 17:1 and 5, He had been born, He was God the Father's Son, so He used those terms accurately, even though it referred to a time when those terms were not used, before the world was, possibly with the exception of angels being called the sons (plural) of God
It's like asking the question: Where was President Trump born? This a perfectly accurate way of speaking, even though Trump was not the President at his birth. It's simply a correct way of referring to him, only long before he became President.
Where were the Father and the only begotten Son, Jesus, before the world was? Well, back then, they were called God and the Word.
Gabriel tells us the reason that He would be called the Son of God - because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit coming upon her and the power of the Most High overshadowing her. Gabriel also told her what to name Him - Jesus.
Yes, the Son is eternal, but He wasn't always called the Son. Prior to the incarnation, He was the Word.
My understanding is, there was no "Jesus" before He was conceived and born - only the Word. Actually John also calls Him "the eternal life". However the Spirit of Jesus was and is the Spirit of the Word, Who is eternal - but not flesh and blood.
There was no only-begotten Son in heaven prior to His becoming begotten, at His birth. How could He have already been begotten (born) in heaven? He became God's ONLY begotten Son only when Mary gave birth to Him.
His name - Jesus - is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Why? Because God had not yet become a man - the man Jesus.
It was the Word Who was sent into the world - "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." John 1:14 God did send the Son into the world - after He became the Son, at His birth.
Notice it doesn't say that "Jesus became flesh", rather "the Word became flesh". The flesh and blood body of Jesus did not always exist. His Spirit did always exist as the Word.
Psalm 2:7 and 11-12 seem to be prophecies concerning the Son. So is Proverbs 30:4 and Isaiah 9:6. Again, none of these call Him Jesus, because the man Jesus was not born yet. When the Word became flesh, born from Mary's womb, that little boy was called Jesus. Paul explains Psalm 2:7 as a prophecy of Christ's resurrection. So none of these verses indicate that the only begotten Son of God existed in their day. Rather, they were looking forward to when the Son of God would be born, crucified and resurrected.
Consider what Jesus said, "Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." and "Father, glorify Your Son." John 17:1 and 5
Well, "before the world was" was a time when God was not yet Jesus' Father and Jesus Himself was not yet God's Son. What existed back then? John 1:1 tells us "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." There's no mention of a Father or of an only begotten Son named Jesus, before the world was.
But when Jesus spoke John 17:1 and 5, He had been born, He was God the Father's Son, so He used those terms accurately, even though it referred to a time when those terms were not used, before the world was, possibly with the exception of angels being called the sons (plural) of God
It's like asking the question: Where was President Trump born? This a perfectly accurate way of speaking, even though Trump was not the President at his birth. It's simply a correct way of referring to him, only long before he became President.
Where were the Father and the only begotten Son, Jesus, before the world was? Well, back then, they were called God and the Word.
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
The title "Lord" and "son" are distinctly bound together in the Scriptures.
Mat 21:33 “Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country.
Mat 21:34 When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit.
Mat 21:35 And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them.
Mat 21:37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
Notice how the "son" is sent because He is "heir" of all things.
Mat 21:38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’
Also, notice the title or Lord used in connection to Son.
Mat 21:42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
Mat 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.
Luk 20:41 But he said to them, “How can they say that the Christ is David's son?
Luk 20:42 For David himself says in the Book of Psalms, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand,
Luk 20:43 until I make your enemies your footstool.”’
Luk 20:44 David thus calls him Lord, so how is he his son?”
Please pay attention to the fact that the Scriptures are not disconnecting son from Lord because David wasn't his father. The Scriptures are connecting the heir to the Eternal nature of Father and Son. The proper Father and Son.
David called the Son "Lord".
Same is true of Enoch.
Luk 20:41 But he said to them, “How can they say that the Christ is David's son?
Luk 20:42 For David himself says in the Book of Psalms, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand,
Luk 20:43 until I make your enemies your footstool.”’
Luk 20:44 David thus calls him Lord, so how is he his son?”
This world has forgotten about the meaningfulness of the Son. You shouldn't.
How about John the Baptist? Let him settle this for you....
Joh 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
The "heir" of all things is tied to the distinction of the Son. He is both Lord and Son.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Such is found in the very nature of "begotten". It speaks of an heir. There is no God without an heir.
The "image" of man came full circle in the manifestation of the Son in the Incarnation. Adam was made in the preincarnate bodily image of Jesus Christ. It is exactly why Christ is referenced as the second Adam.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
DavidTree
Active Member
Based on this/your accurate Scriptural presentation verifies that the Son was not the Son until Elohim Word came in the flesh.
For all of the Scriptural references, some of which you quoted, are Prophecies of WHEN the Elohim Word would become flesh.
@civic @FreeInChrist @Dizerner
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Not true at all. Read them again.
If what you say is true, then Christ wasn't Lord until He came into the world.
Will you make the same claim relative to "Lord"?
Also, please detail exactly when the Lord Jesus Christ is "heir" of all things.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You're buying into the false doctrine that Christ was a created being.
The reference "son of God" has been from the beginning. Adam was a son of God. If you knew Hebrew you'd know this fact.
Also, we know from the oldest book written in the canon that such is true.....
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Jesus even appealed to the references from the book of Psalms.
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
The writer of Hebrews appeals to sons even before they're born.....
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
DavidTree
Active Member
the WORD that was GOD was also YHWH/LORD in the OT
the WORD never lost His Divinity, but HE did set aside HIS Glory from Eternity when the WORD became flesh/son of man
Furthermore, there is something that is escaping ya-all on this subject.
SHALOM
