I think we are on the same page.
J.
The Elect
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
J.
it's good to be on the same page
makesends
Well-known member
So you haven't answered my question. And no, it doesn't mean they had the capacity and ability to respond to the grace of God before they grew hardened. It only means they grew hardened. NOW, answer my question: If growing hardened, and that, by God's doing, impinges on their free will, where does your notion of free will stand?
makesends
Well-known member
To borrow your tactics: So you admit that your construction —that the faith which saves is like any other faith— fails. Glad to hear it!
makesends
Well-known member
Given that it is granted them to believe, yes. It is God that opens the eyes of the blind to see. It is not natural to them, apart from God. In fact, apart from him we can do nothing.
Yes, I too affirm that faith comes by hearing the word of God. Where have I said otherwise? You are demonstrating nothing here.
I know you deny that salvific faith is generated by the Spirit of God, and not by man. I don't care to argue against your constructions that you seem to think represent that simple fact of faith, along with grace and salvation, being the gift of God.
Agreed. I have said no different. Man does indeed respond to God's truth. Favorably, for those to whom God grants them to believe.
makesends
Well-known member
This is going nowhere. You are repeating yourself, saying nothing. Yes, we respond to the gospel. I have not said otherwise. And it is God who works in us to do so. Even by your structure, the gospel being the work of God himself, our response then is by his work, and by grace. Salvific faith is made by God and not by us.
makesends
Well-known member
I think Paul was making use of the situation. I don't know if the jailer was making reference to the eternal salvation. The context doesn't say.
But, like I said, which you continue to ignore in all your posts, the belief is not shown here to be done without God granting it.
I am curious, however, why the Jailer's house is not shown to be given choice here.
makesends
Well-known member
You continue to evade my question, moving the goalposts, as it were.
But, to answer yours, blinding one who blinds himself is typical of how God does many things. He uses means, and we, through our own choices, do precisely as God had decreed from the very beginning.
Nor are you addressing mine. But, I have answered yours; note above
If they believed salvifically, irrevocably, what makes you think God did not enable them to do so?
No, they only show that they must believe. The command to believe does not imply the ability.
No, they themselves prevent their belief, as they are so inclined, ALWAYS, until God changes their wills.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
29 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear to be in me.
Utter nonsense. You assume someone imagines God cannot harden someone because they have free will. No one holds that idea.
As for your answer
That is silly. Your theology teaches man is born blind to spiritual things. You have not answered why God need to prevent one from believing who has no capacity for belief.
More nonsense, you are assuming I hold to something i do not
and you have not relieved your doctrine which insists man is born unable to believe from its difficulty, as man needed to be hardened to prevent belief.
Did you not read? They fell away. Are you going to hold the regenerate can fall away
Afraid not these verses show either man believed or could have believed
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven
Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Duh there is nothing there about granting it
and the question was
Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
And the answer was
31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Not you can do nothing or if God grants you faith you will be saved.
And grant does not mean to infuse or effectually cause
faith would have been granted by the preaching of Paul
Romans 10:14–17 (NASB 2020) — 14 How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
LOL
You are in denial, these clearly suppose an ability to believe
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Why is it you must eisegetically impose the idea God infuses or effectually causes faith when nowher uis it stated
Grant does not mean to infuse or effectually cause. The preaching of the word is sufficient to grant faith
Romans 10:14–17 (NASB 2020) — 14 How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
as is the writing of it
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
So you do not believe God must infuse or effectually cause it?
Faith is man's response. nowhere is it stated god infused or effectually causes faith
salvation is the gift of God
Romans 6:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
again faith is granted not infused or effectually caused
The word the gospel is sufficient to cause or grant faith.
Romans 10:17 (NASB 2020) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
not by god infusing it or effectually causing it while witholding it from others
You need to face the fact God made man with a capability to have faith. And man uses that ability in many ways .
The onus is on you to show it is only in regard to spiritual truth he cannot have faith.
You are in denial of the text
Acts 28:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 FOR THE HEARTS OF THIS PEOPLE HAVE BECOME INSENSITIVE, AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY HARDLY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES; OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.” ’
Yes my notion of free will stands. It is only your assumption which holds otherwise.
but that is diversion, as clearly the text reveals they grew hardened in time. They were not born that way, contrary to your doctrine.
And as the boldly highlighted text shows they might believe if they had not grown hardened
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LOL
If he has to use means to prevent belief, that shows that had an ability to believe which he had to hinder.
What happened to your theology's claim they are born unable to believe.
Worse, you have God typically acting to prevent belief and then judging men for their unbelief.
makesends
Well-known member
You are posing a strawman for what I believe. Belief is necessary, and I have not said otherwise. But belief is by faith, both of which are granted of God, as is repentance. You can look it up for yourself. It's right there in Scripture. @The Rogue Tomato just now quoted one of them. And they are affirmed all over Scripture.
makesends
Well-known member
I exegetically render many scriptures, all of which affirm, and the rest of scripture which does not deny, that God is the beginning source of absolutely all things, to include what I render exegetically to demonstrate that the very Gospel, and, particularly relevant to this discussion, the work of God in the effectiveness of the Gospel, in producing salvific faith, even "belief", which is by GRACE alone, makes it logically unavoidable that the belief that is commanded is a result of the Gospel —even of the work of God— and not of the will of man.
The way I think you can deny it is to depart from logic, and to lay a lens of self-determinism over what you read, where you assume that man's innate ability to believe things is not the result of facts from outside him, nor even of things done to him inside by the Holy Spirit.
That you think your eternity, and the very reason God created anything at all —his Dwelling Place, and the Body and Bride of Christ, and the Children of God, for his infinite glory and praise— hinges on your fickle will, should be evidence enough for you to doubt your point of view.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I believe all the bickering can be distilled down to who shall have the credit over being the hinge and turning point of their own salvation? God, or man's own free will? Settle it once and for all. There's no need to battle prooftexts. Either admit you take the credit, or credit God. After that, you can consider the matter closed.
As for me... God was the hinge and turning point of my salvation.
Trust in the Lord with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.
As for me... God was the hinge and turning point of my salvation.
Trust in the Lord with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.
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Rockson
Well-known member
The problem with your premise is your departure from rational thought on just what it would credibly mean to take credit for something. If I told you I grabbed a life preserver someone threw out to me, and I told you that's something I willfully chose to do that would no way mean among reasonable thinking people that I was claiming credit for my salvation. People of your persuasion however want to slam people for their doing what God told them they needed to do.
When Moses we could say split the Red Sea it was none of his power which did it. It was All God. So God got all the credit BUT God told Moses to do something. Hold the rod over the water such was something he NEEDED to do. So God has told us to believe! He's not going to do that for us and you can't say that he will.
As for me too and all non Calvinists as well but we certainly don't believe things the way that you do.
