The Elect

[makesends]

Man's response

Acts 16:29–31 (NASB 2020) — 29 And the jailer asked for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas; 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

1. Why was he trembling in fear? It is said that his life was forfeit, because he had failed to keep the prisoners jailed. It may well be that this is not about salvation from sins and their penalty, though historically the church has taught that it is.

2. If the historical church teaching is correct, it still does not show that believing is an act of the will, and even more certainly, in spite of imaginations to the contrary, it does not show that belief is possible without the work of the Spirit of God in transforming one from death to life —born again.

 

[makesends]

Can you not understand

Romans 10:14–17 (NASB 2020) — 14 How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
That given revelation man is capable of believing. There is nothing there about faith being infused or effectually caused in the verse

Nor is there anything saying faith is not a gift. Further, if what you say below, that the Gospel is Spirit-inspired, then it is rather obviously by the work of the Spirit in those being saved, that faith is generated, and not of themselves.

The gospel is a Spirit inspired work

I assume you mean, the preaching of the Gospel is a spirit inspired work. We do not make the Gospel. THAT is the work of God himself.

Scripture is a work of the spirit. And it is a sufficient work

Amen that. I have not said different, except to disagree with what you take that to imply.

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 1:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


How is scripture sufficient if one cannot believe on it except if effectually caused to believe. You say one thing while affirming another

How is scripture sufficient if one can by force of will or emotion or whatever else is by capability of man, is what makes it effective?

Show how these are consistent with your theology

These what? In the link, or above?

Show how they are not consistent with my theology. You've only posited your POV, and not shown how the verses contradict my theology, except in your mind. I don't need to show anything more than I already have. These verses are like the rest that you have posted in your attempts to say that, in essence: Belief is possible, therefore, regeneration wasn't necessary for faith.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-elect.1116/post-55684

By the way, you will be hard pressed to prove that the command to believe implies the ability to obey.

 

[makesends]

What you cannot tell how what you state

This frankly amazes me, that one can consider that of himself he can be the cause of salvific faith.
denies cause?
and is not the same as

The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith?
our faith is an instrumental cause of faith

I expect you mean that "our faith is an instrumental cause of our salvation" (not, "of our faith"). Yes, I agree completely that our faith is an instrumental cause of our salvation. Scripture says so. But where does our faith come from? From the work of the Spirit in us, and yes, that includes the Gospel.

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

should have been

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

the verses all show that faith precedes life

regeneration imparts life, so faith precedes regeneration

that is the point you need to address

I do not deny that life is also a result of faith, nor even that that life is not of the same nature as regeneration, but regeneration is that transformation of death to life, which results in both life and faith.

You apparently need to see a mathematical equation, or formula, for how salvation happens, since you can't accept the fact that it is by grace alone, by faith alone, by the power of God alone. The Gospel is not a formula. God gives the life, and that, entirely by grace, through faith.

Not if read the next verse

John 5:25 (NASB 2020) — 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

its hear and live

living follows after believing in all the verses most of which you have not addressed

is faith possible

what do these tell you

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?

Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven

Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”

unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

All those are contrary to your view.

You seem to not be hearing anything I keep saying. NONE of this is possible but for the work of God. THIS is God's doing. I'm beginning to wonder if you even know what my view is, and if maybe you just see red because you think I'm a Calvinist.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
That is not salvific faith. Not at all the same thing. Would you say that faith of theirs "is the substance of what is hoped for", and "the evidence of what is not seen"?

So you admit man is capable of faith in all kind of religions but just not Christianity?

How is it they have that inherent capacity to believe in all other religions?

To have faith in Joseph Smith?

To have faith in the watchtower society?

Faith in mohammed?

Faith in the buddha?

Faith in a plurality of Gods?

Where did that ability come from?

Look once again at what I said: "That is not salvific faith". Their faith is not the same thing as the faith generated in us by the Holy Spirit. Kindly notice the difference. A dog can have faith that his next footfall will meet the earth below him. They may well believe in pink unicorns and Karma. It is not the same thing! Kindly refrain from misrepresenting what I have said.

 

[TomL]

makesends said:
That is not salvific faith. Not at all the same thing. Would you say that faith of theirs "is the substance of what is hoped for", and "the evidence of what is not seen"?

Look once again at what I said: "That is not salvific faith". Their faith is not the same thing as the faith generated in us by the Holy Spirit. Kindly notice the difference. A dog can have faith that his next footfall will meet the earth below him. They may well believe in pink unicorns and Karma. It is not the same thing! Kindly refrain from misrepresenting what I have said.

The reason faith in Christ saves resides with Christ not the value of the faith\\

Real life shows a capability for faith

and scripture shows a capability for faith in Christ

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[TomL]

I expect you mean that "our faith is an instrumental cause of our salvation" (not, "of our faith"). Yes, I agree completely that our faith is an instrumental cause of our salvation. Scripture says so. But where does our faith come from? From the work of the Spirit in us, and yes, that includes the Gospel.

The word in whatever form it comes in

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

given revelation man can believe

I do not deny that life is also a result of faith, nor even that that life is not of the same nature as regeneration, but regeneration is that transformation of death to life, which results in both life and faith.

again faith precedes life

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

John 5:24–25 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

Acts 11:18 (NASB 2020) — 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has also granted to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life.”

You apparently need to see a mathematical equation, or formula, for how salvation happens, since you can't accept the fact that it is by grace alone, by faith alone, by the power of God alone. The Gospel is not a formula. God gives the life, and that, entirely by grace, through faith.

You are confused, I affirm salvation is by grace through faith. I deny faith is something God infuses in man or that he effectually causes it in some preselected unconditionally chosen men.

If you are not dealing with that you are not dealing with my argument

You seem to not be hearing anything I keep saying. NONE of this is possible but for the work of God. THIS is God's doing. I'm beginning to wonder if you even know what my view is, and if maybe you just see red because you think I'm a Calvinist.

Vice versa

Salvation is the work of God

but believing is a response of man to God's truth

 

[TomL]

Nor is there anything saying faith is not a gift. Further, if what you say below, that the Gospel is Spirit-inspired, then it is rather obviously by the work of the Spirit in those being saved, that faith is generated, and not of themselves.

Sure there is

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

I assume you mean, the preaching of the Gospel is a spirit inspired work. We do not make the Gospel. THAT is the work of God himself.

Yes to the first part

yes the gospel is the work of God

faith is our response to it


Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Amen that. I have not said different, except to disagree with what you take that to imply.

How is scripture sufficient if one can by force of will or emotion or whatever else is by capability of man, is what makes it effective?

Because given revelation man can believe

Romans 10:14–17 (ESV) — 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

2 Timothy 3:15 (ESV) — 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

without he can't

These what? In the link, or above?

Show how they are not consistent with my theology. You've only posited your POV, and not shown how the verses contradict my theology, except in your mind. I don't need to show anything more than I already have. These verses are like the rest that you have posted in your attempts to say that, in essence: Belief is possible, therefore, regeneration wasn't necessary for faith.

By the way, you will be hard pressed to prove that the command to believe implies the ability to obey.

scripture i have posted show the capability of belief so i am not hard pressed at all

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

 

[TomL]

1. Why was he trembling in fear? It is said that his life was forfeit, because he had failed to keep the prisoners jailed. It may well be that this is not about salvation from sins and their penalty, though historically the church has taught that it is.

2. If the historical church teaching is correct, it still does not show that believing is an act of the will, and even more certainly, in spite of imaginations to the contrary, it does not show that belief is possible without the work of the Spirit of God in transforming one from death to life —born again.

May well be?

Are you claiming Paul was not replying in reference to eternal salvation.

 

[TomL]

3 guesses how they have no capacity for belief! This contradicts nothing that I believe.

No need to guess. They were prevented from believing. Why prevent one from believing if they have no capacity for belief

Are you then affirming man has the capacity for belief given revelation?

The question you are not mentioning here, is how does God keep them from believing if they have an intrinsic capacity for belief! Does that not violate their "free will"?

He hardens them. Why harden one who has no capacity for belief so they will not believe

Please address the question rather than speculate whether he is violating their free will

But they did grow hardened, didn't they! And so they cannot believe.

Were it not for that they could have believed

Show me how that does not show man has the capability for belief given the revelation of the gospel

Well, no. He doesn't say they would, but that God keeps them from it. Again, though, explain why you consider them incapable of believing if he hides the truth from them. Doesn't that violate "free will"?

Not addressing the point

why hide truth from one who cannot believe?

Most certainly does! 'Receive the word with joy' can mean one of two things: 1. They are indeed born again and fall away because of temptation, because either their gospel is weak, (such as what is taught to be by the will of man), or they remain immature, but they fall away only for a time. 2. They are not born again, but in joy receive the word with a false belief, and then fall away, having no root.

The point is they were not regenerate but they believed, They were not born again having no firm root.

The gospel is the same in each case (the sower sowed the same seed)

Makeasends
Notice, however, that "your theology cannot account for these verses", in that if God can harden hearts so that they are unable to believe in him, he has violated your notion of libertarian free will.

Please do not presume to tell me what my belief is. Almost no one believes man's libertarian free will is absolute. None of that effects my position in the least

but all the verses posted show man has the capabilty to believe

and in fact a number show things had to transpire to prevent belief. Truth needed to be hid or men needed to be hardened

If men cannot believe without an infused or effectually caused gift of faith which was only given to certain unconditionally selected men those verses would make no sense

That unregenerate men could believe refutes the idea that one must be effectually caused to believe

 

[Rockson]

But they did grow hardened, didn't they! And so they cannot believe.

So you acknowledge they GREW hardened. So what was their state before they grew that way? Would it not have to be not hardened? Which means what? It would mean they had the capacity and ability to respond to the grace of God. So there goes the Calvinistic way of thinking about Total Depravity down the tube.

 

[TomL]

So you acknowledge they GREW hardened. So what was their state before they grew that way? Would it not have to be not hardened? Which means what? It would mean they had the capacity and ability to respond to the grace of God. So there goes the Calvinistic way of thinking about Total Depravity down the tube.

Yep

Acts 28:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 FOR THE HEARTS OF THIS PEOPLE HAVE BECOME INSENSITIVE, AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY HARDLY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES; OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.” ’

they were not born that way as Calvinists claim

 

[Johann]

So you acknowledge they GREW hardened. So what was their state before they grew that way? Would it not have to be not hardened? Which means what? It would mean they had the capacity and ability to respond to the grace of God. So there goes the Calvinistic way of thinking about Total Depravity down the tube.

I would not be too hard on Calvinists-for we too were once"dead"

"When you were dead" This is a present participle meaning "being dead." This reflects the results of the Fall-spiritual death (cf. Gen. 3; Rom. 5:12-21; Eph. 2:1-3). Gentiles were sinners cut off from the covenant people (cf. Eph. 2:11-12). The Bible speaks of three stages of death.

1. spiritual death (cf. Genesis 3; Isa. 59:2; Rom. 7:10-11; Eph. 2:1; James 1:15)

2. physical death, (cf. Genesis 5)

3. eternal death, "the second death," "the lake of fire" (cf. Rev. 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8)



"uncircumcision of your flesh"

This was a way of referring to Gentiles (cf. Col. 2:11).

"He"
This must refer to the Father. If so, the pronouns through Col. 2:15 refer to the Father.

"made you live together with Him,"
There are three syn compounds in Col. 2:12-13 (co-buried, Col. 2:12; co-raised, Col. 2:12; and co-quickened, Col. 2:13) which show what had already happened to believers spiritually (aorists). This is very similar to Eph. 2:5-6. In Ephesians God has acted on behalf of Jesus in Eph. 1:20 and Jesus has acted on behalf of believers in Eph. 2:5-6.

"having forgiven us all our transgressions"
This is an aorist (deponent) middle participle. "Forgiven" is from the same word root as "grace" (cf. Rom. 5:15, 16; 6:23; 2 Cor. 1:11; Col. 3:13; Eph. 4:32). Notice God freely forgives "all" sin through Christ (except unbelief)!

2:14

NASB"having canceled out the certificate of debt"
NKJV"having wiped out the handwriting of requirements"
NRSV"erasing the record"
TEV"canceled the unfavorable record of our debts"
NJB"He has wiped out the record of our debt to the Law"

This rather cryptic language probably relates somehow to the false teachers. It refers to the Mosaic Covenant (cf. Eph. 2:15, which could be characterized as "do and live"- "sin and die" (cf. Deut. 27:26; Ezek. 18:4). Paul clearly teaches the sinfulness of all mankind (cf. Rom. 3:9,19,23; 11:32; Gal. 3:22). Therefore, the OT became a death sentence to all mankind!

The term "certificate" was used of (1) a signed IOU, (2) a signed confession, and (3) a legal indictment. The OT was a curse! This Greek term comes into English as "autograph" (self written).

"He has taken it out of the way"

This is a perfect active indicative. This same verb is used in John 1:29 and 1 John 3:5 to refer to the removal of sins. Jesus lived under and fulfilled the Mosaic covenant's requirements. He performed what sinful, fallen mankind could not do. His death was, therefore, not for personal sin, but He became a perfect sacrifice (cf. Leviticus 1-7) for sin. He became "cursed" (cf. Deut. 21:23) that mankind might be delivered from the curse of the Law (cf. Gal. 3:13)!

"nailing it to the cross"

This referred to either (1) a public notice or (2) the charges placed over a crucified person. The cross (Jesus' death) overcame the Law's hostility (OT decrees, cf. 2 Cor. 5:21).

Mercy and grace has been shown to us-we should do the same with others.

 

[Johann]

Yep

Acts 28:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 FOR THE HEARTS OF THIS PEOPLE HAVE BECOME INSENSITIVE, AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY HARDLY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES; OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.” ’

they were not born that way as Calvinists claim

28:24 This reflects the mystery of the gospel. Why some believe and some do not is the mystery of a sovereign God and human free will.

In one sense Paul's ministry to the Jewish leaders in Rome is a microcosm of Paul's ministry. He first shared with the Jews. He shared Jesus' fulfillment of OT Scriptures. Some believed, but most did not. This too, was predicted in the OT (cf. Isa. 6:9-10).

28:25-27 "The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah" This reveals Paul's view of the mystery of Israel's unbelief! The quote in verses 26-27 is from Isa. 6:9-10. Jesus used this verse often of human unbelief (cf. Matt. 13:14-15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:39-40). By this time Paul had already penned Romans 9-11 (why has Israel rejected her Messiah?). Israel of the OT would not/did not fully believe either. There was a remnant of faith, but a majority of unbelief.

28:28 "this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles" This may be an allusion to Psalm 67, especially Acts 28:2. This universal aspect of Christianity is what caused the riot in Jerusalem and was an ongoing problem for many Jews. This is logical from Gen. 1:26,27; 3:15; 12:3. It was prophesied in Isaiah, Micah, and Jonah. It is clearly stated as God's eternal plan by Paul in Eph. 2:11-3:13!



"they will also listen"
This is the truth of Romans 9-11. The Jews rejected the Messiah because He did not fit their expectations and because the gospel opened the door of faith to all people.

The NT issue really is not Jew vs. Gentile, but believer vs. unbeliever. The issue is not who is your mother, but is your heart open to God's Spirit and God's Son?!
That is the question-and YHVH is NOT done with His remnant.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[TomL]

28:24 This reflects the mystery of the gospel. Why some believe and some do not is the mystery of a sovereign God and human free will.

In one sense Paul's ministry to the Jewish leaders in Rome is a microcosm of Paul's ministry. He first shared with the Jews. He shared Jesus' fulfillment of OT Scriptures. Some believed, but most did not. This too, was predicted in the OT (cf. Isa. 6:9-10).

28:25-27 "The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah" This reveals Paul's view of the mystery of Israel's unbelief! The quote in verses 26-27 is from Isa. 6:9-10. Jesus used this verse often of human unbelief (cf. Matt. 13:14-15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:39-40). By this time Paul had already penned Romans 9-11 (why has Israel rejected her Messiah?). Israel of the OT would not/did not fully believe either. There was a remnant of faith, but a majority of unbelief.

28:28 "this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles" This may be an allusion to Psalm 67, especially Acts 28:2. This universal aspect of Christianity is what caused the riot in Jerusalem and was an ongoing problem for many Jews. This is logical from Gen. 1:26,27; 3:15; 12:3. It was prophesied in Isaiah, Micah, and Jonah. It is clearly stated as God's eternal plan by Paul in Eph. 2:11-3:13!



"they will also listen"
This is the truth of Romans 9-11. The Jews rejected the Messiah because He did not fit their expectations and because the gospel opened the door of faith to all people.

The NT issue really is not Jew vs. Gentile, but believer vs. unbeliever. The issue is not who is your mother, but is your heart open to God's Spirit and God's Son?!
That is the question-and YHVH is NOT done with His remnant.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Romans 9 is Paul's continuation of faith versus works

 

[Johann]

Romans 9 is Paul's continuation of faith versus works

Really?

Rom 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
Rom 9:2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
Rom 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED."
Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."
Rom 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP, THAT I MAY SHOW MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MAY BE DECLARED IN ALL THE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
Rom 9:20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED."
Rom 9:26 "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.
Rom 9:28 FOR HE WILL FINISH THE WORK AND CUT IT SHORT IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, BECAUSE THE LORD WILL MAKE A SHORT WORK UPON THE EARTH."
Rom 9:29 And as Isaiah said before: "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT US A SEED, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WE WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE LIKE GOMORRAH."
Israel's Unbelief
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
Rom 9:33 As it is written: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STUMBLING STONE AND ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."

J.

 

[TomL]

Really?

Rom 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
Rom 9:2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
Rom 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED."
Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."
Rom 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP, THAT I MAY SHOW MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MAY BE DECLARED IN ALL THE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
Rom 9:20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED."
Rom 9:26 "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.
Rom 9:28 FOR HE WILL FINISH THE WORK AND CUT IT SHORT IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, BECAUSE THE LORD WILL MAKE A SHORT WORK UPON THE EARTH."
Rom 9:29 And as Isaiah said before: "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT US A SEED, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WE WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE LIKE GOMORRAH."
Israel's Unbelief
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
Rom 9:33 As it is written: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STUMBLING STONE AND ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."

J.

Yes really

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

 

[Johann]

Yes really

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

But the Goyim-Not pursuing righteousness-

2) "That the Gentiles which followed not after righteousness," (hoti ethne ta me diokonta dikaiosunen) "that nation's not pursing righteousness;" that is law-righteousness by standard of the Mosaic law. The Gentiles were not even claimants to be observing, seeking law-standards of righteousness, Rom_2:14-15.

3) "Have attained to righteousness," (katelahen dikaiosunen) "Apprehended or have received righteousness," They did it by faith in Jesus Christ a) Cornelius' household, Act_10:43; b) Lydia's household, Act_16:30-34; c) and the Ethiopian Eunuch, Act_8:36-37; Rom_1:15-16.

4) "Even the righteousness which is of faith," (dikaiosunen de ten ek pisteos) "But a righteousness that is out of or originating out of faith;" The Gentiles received salvation and imputed righteousness from God, just as Abraham had done, as a father-example before them in Ur of The Chaldees, Gen_15:6; Gal_3:8-9; Rom_4:4-6; Rom_4:16;

Right?
J.

 

[TomL]

But the Goyim-Not pursuing righteousness-

2) "That the Gentiles which followed not after righteousness," (hoti ethne ta me diokonta dikaiosunen) "that nation's not pursing righteousness;" that is law-righteousness by standard of the Mosaic law. The Gentiles were not even claimants to be observing, seeking law-standards of righteousness, Rom_2:14-15.

3) "Have attained to righteousness," (katelahen dikaiosunen) "Apprehended or have received righteousness," They did it by faith in Jesus Christ a) Cornelius' household, Act_10:43; b) Lydia's household, Act_16:30-34; c) and the Ethiopian Eunuch, Act_8:36-37; Rom_1:15-16.

4) "Even the righteousness which is of faith," (dikaiosunen de ten ek pisteos) "But a righteousness that is out of or originating out of faith;" The Gentiles received salvation and imputed righteousness from God, just as Abraham had done, as a father-example before them in Ur of The Chaldees, Gen_15:6; Gal_3:8-9; Rom_4:4-6; Rom_4:16;

Right?
J.

Romans 9:30–32 (NASB 2020) — 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; 31 however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though they could by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

they did not pursue it by works of the law

 

[Johann]

Romans 9:30–32 (NASB 2020) — 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; 31 however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though they could by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

they did not pursue it by works of the law

For no man can ever pursue it by the works of the law.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness [who did not seek salvation and a right relationship with God, nevertheless] obtained righteousness, that is, the righteousness which is produced by faith;
Rom 9:31 whereas Israel, [though always] pursuing the law of righteousness, did not succeed in fulfilling the law. [Isa_51:1]
Rom 9:32 And why not? Because it was not by faith [that they pursued it], but as though it were by works [relying on the merit of their works instead of their faith]. They stumbled over the stumbling Stone [Jesus Christ]. [Isa_8:14; Isa_28:16]
AMP.


Rom 9:31 Whereas Yisroel pursuing a Tzedek (righteousness) based on the Torah (see Ga 3:12-13) did not arrive at that Torah?
Rom 9:32 Why so? Because it was not on the mekor (basis) of emunah but on the mekor (basis) of [zechus-earning] ma’asim (works 3:20,28; 4:2,6; 9:11-12). They have stumbled over the EVEN NEGEF ("Stone of Stumbling" Isa 8:14; 28:16),
Rom 9:33 As it is written "Hinei, I place in Tziyon a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense; and he who believes in Me shall not be put to shame" (Isa 8:14; 28:16).
stumblingstone. FS173, +Gen_27:44, FS22L2, +Isa_8:14, Rom_14:13, Isa_53:1, Jer_6:21, Eze_3:20, Hos_14:9, Zec_3:9; Zec_11:12, 1Co_1:23; +1Co_8:9, 1Pe_2:8.
rock of offence. Rom_11:9; Rom_14:13; Rom_16:17, Mat_5:30; +Mat_11:6; *+Mat_13:41; +Mat_15:12, Mar_12:10, Luk_2:34, +1Co_1:23, Gal_5:11, 1Pe_2:7-8, 1Jn_2:10, Rev_2:14.
and whosoever. Rom_4:11; *Rom_5:5; Rom_10:11; Rom_10:13, Psa_2:12; Psa_22:5; Psa_25:2-3; Psa_25:20, Isa_45:17; Isa_54:4, Joe_2:26-27, Luk_24:25, Gal_3:6, Php_1:20, 1Ti_1:16, **2Ti_1:12, 1Jn_2:28.
ashamed. or, confounded. or, put to shame. FS121G2, +Psa_25:2, FS96F2, +Mat_2:6, Rom_5:5, Job_6:20, Psa_71:1; Psa_119:116, Pro_4:12, Isa_49:23, +Joe_2:26, Zep_3:11, Mat_11:6, Luk_7:23, 2Ti_1:8; 2Ti_2:15, *1Pe_2:6.

J.

 

[TomL]

For no man can ever pursue it by the works of the law.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness [who did not seek salvation and a right relationship with God, nevertheless] obtained righteousness, that is, the righteousness which is produced by faith;
Rom 9:31 whereas Israel, [though always] pursuing the law of righteousness, did not succeed in fulfilling the law. [Isa_51:1]
Rom 9:32 And why not? Because it was not by faith [that they pursued it], but as though it were by works [relying on the merit of their works instead of their faith]. They stumbled over the stumbling Stone [Jesus Christ]. [Isa_8:14; Isa_28:16]
AMP.


Rom 9:31 Whereas Yisroel pursuing a Tzedek (righteousness) based on the Torah (see Ga 3:12-13) did not arrive at that Torah?
Rom 9:32 Why so? Because it was not on the mekor (basis) of emunah but on the mekor (basis) of [zechus-earning] ma’asim (works 3:20,28; 4:2,6; 9:11-12). They have stumbled over the EVEN NEGEF ("Stone of Stumbling" Isa 8:14; 28:16),
Rom 9:33 As it is written "Hinei, I place in Tziyon a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense; and he who believes in Me shall not be put to shame" (Isa 8:14; 28:16).
stumblingstone. FS173, +Gen_27:44, FS22L2, +Isa_8:14, Rom_14:13, Isa_53:1, Jer_6:21, Eze_3:20, Hos_14:9, Zec_3:9; Zec_11:12, 1Co_1:23; +1Co_8:9, 1Pe_2:8.
rock of offence. Rom_11:9; Rom_14:13; Rom_16:17, Mat_5:30; +Mat_11:6; *+Mat_13:41; +Mat_15:12, Mar_12:10, Luk_2:34, +1Co_1:23, Gal_5:11, 1Pe_2:7-8, 1Jn_2:10, Rev_2:14.
and whosoever. Rom_4:11; *Rom_5:5; Rom_10:11; Rom_10:13, Psa_2:12; Psa_22:5; Psa_25:2-3; Psa_25:20, Isa_45:17; Isa_54:4, Joe_2:26-27, Luk_24:25, Gal_3:6, Php_1:20, 1Ti_1:16, **2Ti_1:12, 1Jn_2:28.
ashamed. or, confounded. or, put to shame. FS121G2, +Psa_25:2, FS96F2, +Mat_2:6, Rom_5:5, Job_6:20, Psa_71:1; Psa_119:116, Pro_4:12, Isa_49:23, +Joe_2:26, Zep_3:11, Mat_11:6, Luk_7:23, 2Ti_1:8; 2Ti_2:15, *1Pe_2:6.

J.

They tried - unsuccessfully

Romans 3:20 (ESV) — 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.