Rockson
Well-known member
What's truth that a clear meaning of a parable should be set aside and we go with just it all has to affirm Calvinism in some strange unknown way?
The Elect
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Correct. The Father has done all he is willing to do. The son went out and had his own way. He realized what was best for him and went home.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
What changed your mind?
makesends
Well-known member
(Ephesians 2:8.9) Once again, by grace we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves—it is the gift of God— If, grammatically, salvation is the gift, then since it is by grace through faith, then both the grace and faith are also the gift of God.
You have not refuted, but only denied this.
makesends
Well-known member
John 5:24 do not show, by mere order of words, sequence of causation. Further, we can know sequence of causation is always God first, the one who causes beginnings. So no matter what comes temporally —that is, from our point of view— faith, per Eph 2, is caused by God, and is ours by God, and not by ourselves.
makesends
Well-known member
Precisely right! Just as I have been saying. Join both those statements. It is not knowledge that produces faith. It is not the human mind that produces faith, but the work of God that does it. And so the one in whom God does that work believes.
Not apart from the Spirit. In fact, it may well be that there are more that are repulsed by the Gospel than those in whom faith is engendered by it.
Amen all that. How does that oppose what I have said?
THAT may be debatable, but yes, God is able to use whatever he chooses to get the gospel across. He even sometimes uses false teachers teaching a perverse gospel.
makesends
Well-known member
Do you really believe I don't know human being naturally have ears, eyes and feelings? No, what I believe does not preclude that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. You seem to think you have it all straight in your head as to the mechanics of faith. I don't claim such a thing. (—Which is one of the reasons I believe it comes from the Spirit of God. None of us are up to that task.)
makesends
Well-known member
makesends said:
I did not say anything about law keeping. This frankly amazes me, that one can consider that of himself he can be the cause of salvific faith.
I did not say anything about law keeping. This frankly amazes me, that one can consider that of himself he can be the cause of salvific faith.
Where did I say different?
All true, but for the last sentence, which misrepresents what I say. (Btw, I can't speak for Calvinism here. I'm not a Calvinist, and I have had at least one of them say I don't speak for them, so...). I don't say, nor imply, that God believes for me nor that God trusts for me. I said that he produces the faith within me, by the Spirit of God, and that it is not generated by me. The use of faith, subsequent to being born again is indeed my responsibility to care for, to include growing in it. But that is impossible to do for the unregenerated.
Here
This frankly amazes me, that one can consider that of himself he can be the cause of salvific faith.
Scripture shows faith precedes regeneration (life)
John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
but let me ask you. Who produces faith in Mohammed, Buddha, The watchtower etc
Romans 10:14–17 (NASB 2020) — 14 How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Scripture is a work of the spirit. And it is a sufficient work
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 1:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Um
John 5:25 (NASB 2020) — 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
hear and live
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
believe and have life
Salvation is the gift of God not faith. There is no need for faith to be a gift. That is mere assumption
Seeing as God does not believe for you how can it not (faith) not be of yourself
Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Why them was it necessary to prevent belief
John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Both parables and narratives contradict Calvinism
brightfame52
Well-known member
Correct believers believe because of Grace Acts 18:27
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
Calvinist fairytale.
brightfame52
Well-known member
It's inward grace in regeneration by the Spirit. God puts the Spirit in the redeemed Ezk 36:27
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
So it is effectually caused
brightfame52
Well-known member
You can not see it
