The Elect

[Rockson]

Thats the Truth, Im not surprised you dont believe it, nothing I can do to change your mind.

What's truth that a clear meaning of a parable should be set aside and we go with just it all has to affirm Calvinism in some strange unknown way?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Hold it now. You can't rightly do that to this parable. The Father represents God in the parable not sure how that can be denied. If you're going to bring this into the Calvinism mode you'd have to say the Father went and tracked down the Son and put a collar on him and dragged him back to his home. The parable with the Father as a type of God does absolutely the opposite of what you claim.

Correct. The Father has done all he is willing to do. The son went out and had his own way. He realized what was best for him and went home.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Thats the Truth, Im not surprised you dont believe it, nothing I can do to change your mind.

What changed your mind?

 

[makesends]

Actually no

you posted



there is nothing there about infused faith or effectually cause faith

(Ephesians 2:8.9) Once again, by grace we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves—it is the gift of God— If, grammatically, salvation is the gift, then since it is by grace through faith, then both the grace and faith are also the gift of God.

You have not refuted, but only denied this.

 

[makesends]

Yes it is regeneration and it happens by

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

faith precedes life

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:24 do not show, by mere order of words, sequence of causation. Further, we can know sequence of causation is always God first, the one who causes beginnings. So no matter what comes temporally —that is, from our point of view— faith, per Eph 2, is caused by God, and is ours by God, and not by ourselves.

 

[makesends]

Faith requires hearing, understanding, acceptance of the truth and trusting in it

There is no requirement for revelation knowledge directly from the Spirit

Precisely right! Just as I have been saying. Join both those statements. It is not knowledge that produces faith. It is not the human mind that produces faith, but the work of God that does it. And so the one in whom God does that work believes.

Scripture and the preaching of it are sufficient

Not apart from the Spirit. In fact, it may well be that there are more that are repulsed by the Gospel than those in whom faith is engendered by it.

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


The gospel is the power of God unto salvation

Romans 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Amen all that. How does that oppose what I have said?

in whatever form received

THAT may be debatable, but yes, God is able to use whatever he chooses to get the gospel across. He even sometimes uses false teachers teaching a perverse gospel.

 

[makesends]

Human beings naturally have ears, eyes and feelings. Do you really believe they don't. This is why the Gospel is preached. If what you believe is true there would no reason for the Gospel. Your would just supernaturally be converted with all knowledge.

I believe what Acts 17:26-27 says.

Do you really believe I don't know human being naturally have ears, eyes and feelings? No, what I believe does not preclude that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. You seem to think you have it all straight in your head as to the mechanics of faith. I don't claim such a thing. (—Which is one of the reasons I believe it comes from the Spirit of God. None of us are up to that task.)

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
I did not say anything about law keeping. This frankly amazes me, that one can consider that of himself he can be the cause of salvific faith.

Do you not understand various level causes'
'
John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).

Where did I say different?

That is not the word of an Arminian or a provisionist but of


John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).


Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkouwer states


3. TO FAITH. Faith is the mediate or instrumental cause of sanctification as well as of justification. It does not merit sanctification any more than it does justification, but it unites us to Christ and keeps us in touch with Him as the Head of the new humanity, who is the source of the new life within us, and also of our progressive sanctification, through the operation of the Holy Spirit

Now as for faith That is your responsibility, not God's. He is not going to believe or trust for you

All true, but for the last sentence, which misrepresents what I say. (Btw, I can't speak for Calvinism here. I'm not a Calvinist, and I have had at least one of them say I don't speak for them, so...). I don't say, nor imply, that God believes for me nor that God trusts for me. I said that he produces the faith within me, by the Spirit of God, and that it is not generated by me. The use of faith, subsequent to being born again is indeed my responsibility to care for, to include growing in it. But that is impossible to do for the unregenerated.

 

[TomL]

makesends said:
I did not say anything about law keeping. This frankly amazes me, that one can consider that of himself he can be the cause of salvific faith.

Where did I say different?

Here

This frankly amazes me, that one can consider that of himself he can be the cause of salvific faith.

All true, but for the last sentence, which misrepresents what I say. (Btw, I can't speak for Calvinism here. I'm not a Calvinist, and I have had at least one of them say I don't speak for them, so...). I don't say, nor imply, that God believes for me nor that God trusts for me. I said that he produces the faith within me, by the Spirit of God, and that it is not generated by me. The use of faith, subsequent to being born again is indeed my responsibility to care for, to include growing in it. But that is impossible to do for the unregenerated.

Scripture shows faith precedes regeneration (life)

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.


but let me ask you. Who produces faith in Mohammed, Buddha, The watchtower etc

 

[TomL]

Precisely right! Just as I have been saying. Join both those statements. It is not knowledge that produces faith. It is not the human mind that produces faith, but the work of God that does it. And so the one in whom God does that work believes.

Romans 10:14–17 (NASB 2020) — 14 How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Not apart from the Spirit. In fact, it may well be that there are more that are repulsed by the Gospel than those in whom faith is engendered by it.

Amen all that. How does that oppose what I have said?

THAT may be debatable, but yes, God is able to use whatever he chooses to get the gospel across. He even sometimes uses false teachers teaching a perverse gospel.

Scripture is a work of the spirit. And it is a sufficient work

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 1:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[TomL]

John 5:24 do not show, by mere order of words, sequence of causation. Further, we can know sequence of causation is always God first, the one who causes beginnings. So no matter what comes temporally —that is, from our point of view— faith, per Eph 2, is caused by God, and is ours by God, and not by ourselves.

Um

John 5:25 (NASB 2020) — 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

hear and live

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

believe and have life

 

[TomL]

(Ephesians 2:8.9) Once again, by grace we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves—it is the gift of God— If, grammatically, salvation is the gift, then since it is by grace through faith, then both the grace and faith are also the gift of God.

You have not refuted, but only denied this.

Salvation is the gift of God not faith. There is no need for faith to be a gift. That is mere assumption

Seeing as God does not believe for you how can it not (faith) not be of yourself

Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

 

[TomL]

makesends said:

I don't say, nor imply, that God believes for me nor that God trusts for me. I said that he produces the faith within me, by the Spirit of God, and that it is not generated by me. The use of faith, subsequent to being born again is indeed my responsibility to care for, to include growing in it. But that is impossible to do for the unregenerated.

Why them was it necessary to prevent belief

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

 

[TomL]

Hold it now. You can't rightly do that to this parable. The Father represents God in the parable not sure how that can be denied. If you're going to bring this into the Calvinism mode you'd have to say the Father went and tracked down the Son and put a collar on him and dragged him back to his home. The parable with the Father as a type of God does absolutely the opposite of what you claim.

Both parables and narratives contradict Calvinism

 

[brightfame52]

(Ephesians 2:8.9) Once again, by grace we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves—it is the gift of God— If, grammatically, salvation is the gift, then since it is by grace through faith, then both the grace and faith are also the gift of God.

You have not refuted, but only denied this.

Correct believers believe because of Grace Acts 18:27

 

[TomL]

Correct believers believe because of Grace Acts 18:27

Still no infused or effectually caused faith

The gospel is grace

 

[civic]

Hold it now. You can't rightly do that to this parable. The Father represents God in the parable not sure how that can be denied. If you're going to bring this into the Calvinism mode you'd have to say the Father went and tracked down the Son and put a collar on him and dragged him back to his home. The parable with the Father as a type of God does absolutely the opposite of what you claim.

Ditto

 

[TomL]

Yes he was made alive from the dead and then he came to his spiritual senses, Jesus had granted him repentance. These parables are to show the blessings of the Person and Work of Christ and what He accomplished.

Calvinist fairytale.

 

[brightfame52]

Still no infused or effectually caused faith

The gospel is grace

It's inward grace in regeneration by the Spirit. God puts the Spirit in the redeemed Ezk 36:27

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

So it is effectually caused

 

[brightfame52]

Calvinist fairytale.

You can not see it