The Elect

[makesends]

Jesus Himself tells us who it is that hears the word of God In 8:47

What I asked you is how. Not who.

 

[makesends]

God isn't a door (John 10:7) either but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid way of revealing with an analogy something of Jesus being OUR SALVATION!

So I take it then you do at least understand the principle that one doesn't have to consider they've worked for something merely because they've been told they need to do something in relation to possessing something. Now that point has been scored you have every reason not to persist in insisting someone doing something of their own abilities it doesn't have to mean they've worked for it.

Ha ha! so YOU are the one who plays that game! No, you have scored no points! You are still wrong about "...the principle that one doesn't have to consider they've worked for something merely because they've been told they need to do something in relation to possessing something," Kind of interesting to me, though, that you can write these very self-contradicting words and deny the contradiction! And, by the way, the question of whether they consider something one way or another is not the point —the question of whether one doing something can be a means of salvation by grace is the point.

 

[makesends]

Regeneration imparts life

faith precedes the reception of life

therefore faith precedes regeneration

Explain from scripture, HOW faith precedes regeneration. And, by the way, I mean precedes causally. How, exactly, is it that the dead can do an alive thing, such as to have salvific faith in and of their own doing.

 

[makesends]

Nothing in Eph 2 speaks of infused or effectually caused faith



Righteous is by faith not law keeping

No one can please God by law keeping. They can by faith however

I did not say anything about law keeping. This frankly amazes me, that one can consider that of himself he can be the cause of salvific faith.

 

[makesends]

Nothing in Eph 2 speaks of infused or effectually caused faith

I showed how it did. All you did was deny it, not refute it.

Righteous is by faith not law keeping

No one can please God by law keeping. They can by faith however

 

[Rockson]

Ha ha! so YOU are the one who plays that game! No, you have scored no points! You are still wrong about "...the principle that one doesn't have to consider they've worked for something merely because they've been told they need to do something in relation to possessing something," Kind of interesting to me, though, that you can write these very self-contradicting words and deny the contradiction! And, by the way, the question of whether they consider something one way or another is not the point —the question of whether one doing something can be a means of salvation by grace is the point.

So you believe man doesn't do anything but you believe he must do something but it's God making him do it with no option to say yeah or nay just an automation. Do you REALLY believe this reflect a true and sincere relationship of LOVE God portrays he wants to have with his creation?

 

[makesends]

Can the dead hear Satan?

The same way every one that is naturally alive. With ears or eyes to read. Even the blind can use their fingers. We feel after Him and find Him.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

You know they have no ears to hear, no eyes to see, nothing with which to feel him, unless he grants it to them, I hope.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You know they have no ears to hear, no eyes to see, nothing with which to feel him, unless he grants it to them, I hope.

Human beings naturally have ears, eyes and feelings. Do you really believe they don't. This is why the Gospel is preached. If what you believe is true there would no reason for the Gospel. Your would just supernaturally be converted with all knowledge.

I believe what Acts 17:26-27 says.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Agreed. And how does the dead hear?

Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)

You seem to me here to equate ability to communicate with God, with understanding spiritual things. THAT (understanding) is what I am talking about.

Luke 16:27-31 -“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Above we see that Jesus declared the physical dead and spiritual dead can respond to spiritual things. The dead spiritual/physical dead man is pleading for his own brother’s life.

With that logic, that this is understanding spiritual things, you would also have to conclude that the devil understands spiritual things, in the way that can be responded to salvifically. The devil believes, but that belief is not by salvific faith. The 'understanding of spiritual things' that is necessary in order to be qualified by the scriptural phrase, "spiritually discerned", is only by the Spirit of God. We are not talking about metaphysical things, but the things of God.

Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him

THAT, my brother, is regeneration. And it happens by the work (the voice speaking) of God himself, to the spiritually dead. But, for whatever it may be worth to you to know it, some say that the verse is not talking about regeneration, but actual resurrection, as the following verses talk about. It is an interesting discussion.

In Mark 2:17 Jesus said, “"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." The sick/spiritually dead can hear and understand Jesus- the sinner who is dead in their sins can understand.

That doesn't show that they can understand what is spiritually discerned. That they are intelligent is not in dispute.

In Romans 1 we read of the spiritually dead that they can perceive God and that Gods handiwork is self-evident to them and that the things of God are clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”

I could go even further and say that the text shows that they even KNEW him. But it still does not make your point, that their understanding is spiritually discerning the things of God. Again, that is done of the Spirit of God, which is not mere metaphysics.

Below we see Jesus tell the "spiritually dead " pharisees that they refuse to come to Jesus so that they can have/receive life.

This is the complete opposite of what some religions teach. Jesus lets those dead pharisees know if they come to Jesus they can have life just as John taught in John 1:12-13 and Jesus taught Nicodemus in John 3:16-18. Belief in Him always precedes life. As I have mentioned before this is consistent with Jesus teachings throughout the gospels. He said no less than 13 times that- YOUR FAITH has saved you, healed, you, made you well. Not the faith that He gave them , saved them. It was THEIR OWN FAITH THAT SAVED THEM. When one placed their faith in Him they will be saved, have life, be regenerate, receive eternal life, salvation. Those conditions are taught by all the apostles and writers of the N.T.

Of course! We've been here before, several times. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by the decision of those upon whom God chose to show mercy, but by God's work alone —grace alone. THEIR faith is a gift to them, not of the will of man.

John 5
“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?

The fact that most refuse to believe does not mean that those who do believe do so as a result of their own willpower. (And no, reader, I don't mean that we don't decide —we most certainly do!— but that our decision is a result, and not a cause, of our being born again.)

The result is our regeneration, life, salvation, eternal life, new birth, born again- all synonyms. Don't let anyone conflate them.

John 1:13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

John 7:17
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Psalm 25:9
He guides the humble in what is right and teaches them His way.

Psalm 25:14
The LORD confides in those who fear Him, and reveals His covenant to them.

Acts 17:11-12
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

Acts 17:30-31
30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

This could go on a long time. I know as many passages as you that show choice is real. I don't dispute it. But the choice do a spiritually alive thing cannot be made by the spiritually dead.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone

so we can see from the above that salvation is for everyone and God commands everyone to repent.

That it says 'everyone' does not imply that the hinge upon which everyone's eternity rests is free will. Plus, (and I expect you know this), most Calvinists/ Reformed consider this the offer, and not the effectual calling. The NIV even calls it an offer, and apparently has good reason grammatically to do so, though not a literal rendering; the alternative is universalism.

The command does not imply the ability to obey that command. Sorry, but it simply does not.

Gods law is to bring one to repentance and reveal one sin.

The law reveals our sin and imperfections that brings one to humble themselves and repent . Out inability to do something God commands like be perfect does not mean we cannot admit our imperfections and inability to be perfect and to rely upon Him for our perfection and not on ones self righteousness. When one understands they cannot save themselves and relies upon God for their salvation they can and will be saved. Repenting is something we do, believing is something we do, saving is what God does. He commands everyone to repent and those who do will be saved. Salvation is for everyone and everyone can repent. God saves those who repent of their sins and believe the gospel. The teaching of Jesus and the publican demonstrates the above is true without regeneration preceding repentance and belief .

You excuse us from being perfect, as commanded, yet you also claim that we can do what only God can do in us —believe salvifically in and of ourselves, apart from him! That isn't even Arminian, but Pelagian —just saying... If we find our perfection 'in-Christ', why can't we find our faith 'in-Christ'?

Below we read Paul is reasoning with the heathen Greeks and the unbelieving Jews( the dead, unregenerate) as Corinth. So by using reasoning, logic and persuasion the Apostle converts many of the over the next couple of years. This is how apologetics are used to persuade unbelievers who can understand the scriptures when reasoned well by the Apologist.

The gospel is not 'intellectually discerned' but 'spiritually discerned'. That the intellect, as well as the emotions and other things are involved is not in dispute. That they are effectual in causing salvific faith is.

Acts 18
After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them. 4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

5 When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. 6 But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

7 Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. 8 Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard Paul believed and were baptized.

9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: “Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. 10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city.” 11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.

12 While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews of Corinth made a united attack on Paul and brought him to the place of judgment. 13 “This man,” they charged, “is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law.”

14 Just as Paul was about to speak, Gallio said to them, “If you Jews were making a complaint about some misdemeanor or serious crime, it would be reasonable for me to listen to you. 15 But since it involves questions about words and names and your own law—settle the matter yourselves. I will not be a judge of such things.” 16 So he drove them off. 17 Then the crowd there turned on Sosthenes the synagogue leader and beat him in front of the proconsul; and Gallio showed no concern whatever.


Acts 14:1
At Iconium, Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue, where they spoke so well that a great number of Jews and Greeks believed.

Acts 17:2
As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:19
When they reached Ephesus, Paul parted ways with Priscilla and Aquila. He himself went into the synagogue there and reasoned with the Jews.

Acts 19:26
Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:

Matthew 16:15-17
He[Jesus]said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.


Luke 15:11-32
And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. 13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. 14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.

17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

25 “Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.’ 28 But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, 29 but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’ 31 And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”

Now notice that the Son was the following :

A ) he was dead
B ) he was lost

So we have a dead son who was lost and on his own realized that he was better off as a slave back at his Fathers house. So as one who is dead he realized his lost state and was able to make his own decision to repent and return to his Fathers house and become a servant. This is the opposite of what Calvinists teach.

We know that Salvation is of the Lord . We know that the Father was not obligated to forgive and restore the son. The son recognized his sin and repented of it and his Father forgave and restored him. The son humbled himself, God didn't, the son repented, God didn't do that for him by granting it to him, the dead son returned home, the Father did not call him home. The Father restored the son after the son repented . Calvinists conflate Gods salvation( Savior ) and mans responsibility to humble themselves and repent of their sin.

"We know that Salvation is of the Lord", you say. Then how can it be that salvation, which is of grace through faith, is hinged on the decision of man?

hope this helps !!!

 

[Rockson]

With that logic, that this is understanding spiritual things, you would also have to conclude that the devil understands spiritual things, in the way that can be responded to salvifically.

Sorry but you're trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat. Salvation for the devil and his cohorts may not be possible simply because it's not offered.

.The gospel is not 'intellectually discerned' but 'spiritually discerned'.

The natural man can understand and respond to the gospel. When you Calvinists go down the road talking about spiritual discernment that the natural man understands not the things of the spirit, but you're misrepresenting 1 Cor 2:14 which has nothing to do with salvation truths. It's talking about discernment of the deep things of God or things that only mature believers can perceive. It would be good if you read even a few verses later which confirms this in 1 Cor 3: 1 which states he couldn't give them meat but had to stay with MILK truths.

 

[TomL]

I showed how it did. All you did was deny it, not refute it.

Actually no

you posted

We read it right there in Ephesians 2.

But it is impossible to please God, and impossible to submit to God's law, without being born again (Romans 8:1-8). Would not one deciding to trust God please God?

there is nothing there about infused faith or effectually cause faith

 

[TomL]

I did not say anything about law keeping. This frankly amazes me, that one can consider that of himself he can be the cause of salvific faith.

Do you not understand various level causes'
'
John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).


That is not the word of an Arminian or a provisionist but of


John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).


Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkouwer states


3. TO FAITH. Faith is the mediate or instrumental cause of sanctification as well as of justification. It does not merit sanctification any more than it does justification, but it unites us to Christ and keeps us in touch with Him as the Head of the new humanity, who is the source of the new life within us, and also of our progressive sanctification, through the operation of the Holy Spirit

Now as for faith That is your responsibility, not God's. He is not going to believe or trust for you

 

[TomL]

Explain from scripture, HOW faith precedes regeneration. And, by the way, I mean precedes causally. How, exactly, is it that the dead can do an alive thing, such as to have salvific faith in and of their own doing.

I posted multiple verses showing faith precedes life and other proofs as well

The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (one comes to Jesus by faith)

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. (all agree quickening - being made alive speaks of regeneration when spoken of the physically living)


We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Of course unbelief does not profit so it must be through faith

Hebrews 4:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.through - dia instrument or means in the genitive case - Vines

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

God regenerates those he has forgiven

foregiveness requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

 

[brightfame52]

What I asked you is how. Not who.

Being of God is born of God regeneration thats how. I have stated that already.

Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[TomL]

Explain from scripture, HOW faith precedes regeneration. And, by the way, I mean precedes causally. How, exactly, is it that the dead can do an alive thing, such as to have salvific faith in and of their own doing.

You do not understand spiritual deadness.

It notes separation alienation from God not unconsciousness and inertness like one physically dead

Ephesians 2:12 (NASB 2020) — 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

The prodigal son was dead, he came to his senses and returned home

The church at Sardis is dead, and it was told to repent

A dead man could read scripture and be made alive

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

A dead man could come to Christ and be made alive

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

A dead man who hears Christ may live

John 5:24–25 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

A man may repent unto life

Acts 11:18 (NASB 2020) — 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has also granted to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life.”

He does not need life (regeneration) to believe,

That is the reverse of what scripture states

 

[brightfame52]

You do not understand spiritual deadness.

It notes separation alienation from God not unconsciousness and inertness like one physically dead

Ephesians 2:12 (NASB 2020) — 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

The prodigal son was dead, he came to his senses and returned home

The church at Sardis is dead, and it was told to repent

A dead man could read scripture and be made alive

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

A dead man could come to Christ and be made alive

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

A dead man who hears Christ may live

John 5:24–25 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

A man may repent unto life

Acts 11:18 (NASB 2020) — 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has also granted to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life.”

He does not need life (regeneration) to believe,

That is the reverse of what scripture states

The prodigal son was dead, so he was made alive, dead folk cant be active in making themselves alive. He came to his senses because he was supernaturally given life from Christ.

 

[TomL]

The prodigal son was dead, so he was made alive, dead folk cant be active in making themselves alive. He came to his senses because he was supernaturally given life from Christ.

You just contradicted yourself as the prodigal so had to come to his senses and return home to be made alive

Sorry there is nothing in the passage about supernatural given life from Christ

and there is no life from Christ if one does not come to and believe on him

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


You are reading your theology into scripture

 

[TomL]

civic said:
Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him

THAT, my brother, is regeneration. And it happens by the work (the voice speaking) of God himself, to the spiritually dead. But, for whatever it may be worth to you to know it, some say that the verse is not talking about regeneration, but actual resurrection, as the following verses talk about. It is an interesting discussion.

Yes it is regeneration and it happens by

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

faith precedes life

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[TomL]

With that logic, that this is understanding spiritual things, you would also have to conclude that the devil understands spiritual things, in the way that can be responded to salvifically. The devil believes, but that belief is not by salvific faith. The 'understanding of spiritual things' that is necessary in order to be qualified by the scriptural phrase, "spiritually discerned", is only by the Spirit of God. We are not talking about metaphysical things, but the things of God.

Faith requires hearing, understanding, acceptance of the truth and trusting in it

There is no requirement for revelation knowledge directly from the Spirit

Scripture and the preaching of it are sufficient

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


The gospel is the power of God unto salvation

Romans 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


in whatever form received

 

[brightfame52]

You just contradicted yourself as the prodigal so had to come to his senses and return home to be made alive

Sorry there is nothing in the passage about supernatural given life from Christ

and there is no life from Christ if one does not come to and believe on him

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


You are reading your theology into scripture

The prodigal son was made alive first. Thats resurrection from the dead. Man dead in sin and to God has no spiritual senses.