The Elect

[Rockson]

Calvinist fairytale.

True Tom it's bizarre but I wouldn't call what Calvinists come up with as fairytales. Fairytales people tell to kids and quite frankly I wouldn't want some kid to get their stories in their mind. What they've done is created horror stories for it's an absolute horror the type of image they want to instill within believers of just what God is like in his character and nature. I believe many fell into it wanting to be sincere but unbeknown to them they were yielding to a certain agent who wanted to malign and discredit the Creator. We can pray for the flesh and blood men who's minds were subverted and taken away from even understanding LOVE and hope they'll mount up with courage and shake off the delusion they find themselves in. I truly hope and trust that they do

 

[civic]

Correct believers believe because of Grace Acts 18:27

Believers believe because they believe.

 

[TomL]

True Tom it's bizarre but I wouldn't call what Calvinists come up with as fairytales. Fairytales people tell to kids and quite frankly I wouldn't want some kid to get their stories in their mind. What they've done is created horror stories for it's an absolute horror the type of image they want to instill within believers of just what God is like in his character and nature. I believe many fell into it wanting to be sincere but unbeknown to them they were yielding to a certain agent who wanted to malign and discredit the Creator. We can pray for the flesh and blood men who's minds were subverted and taken away from even understanding LOVE and hope they'll mount up with courage and shake off the delusion they find themselves in. I truly hope and trust that they do

It is true Calvinism maligns the character of God.

 

[brightfame52]

Believers believe because they believe.

Because of Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Apollos decided to travel through Achaia. So the Lord's followers wrote letters, encouraging the followers there to welcome him. After Apollos arrived in Achaia, he was a great help to everyone who had put their faith in the Lord Jesus because of God's gift of undeserved grace.CEV

 

[civic]

Because of Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Apollos decided to travel through Achaia. So the Lord's followers wrote letters, encouraging the followers there to welcome him. After Apollos arrived in Achaia, he was a great help to everyone who had put their faith in the Lord Jesus because of God's gift of undeserved grace.CEV

That grace and belief was Apollos. Nice try though.

Vincent Greek
Through grace

Grace has the article, the special grace of God imparted. Expositors differ as to the connection; some joining through grace with them which had believed, insisting on the Greek order of the words; and others with helped, referring to grace conferred on Apollos. I prefer the latter, principally for the reason urged by Meyer, that "the design of the text is to characterize Apollos and his work, and not those who believed.

Expositor's Greek Testament
Acts 18:27. διελθεῖν εἰς, cf. Luke 8:22, Mark 4:35, Latin, trajicere.—προτρεψ.… ἔγραψαν: “encouraged him and wrote,” R.V., so Chrysostom, Erasmus, Grotius, Bengel, Felten, Lumby, Rendall, Knabenbauer: “currentem incitantes” Bengel. But others refer it to the disciples, “wrote exhorting the disciples,” i.e., wrote letters of commendation, 2 Corinthians 3, so Luther, De Wette, Ewald, Zöckler, Alford, Wendt, Weiss, Nösgen, Hackett. Blass thinks that the word can be referred to neither in the sense of cohortari, and prefers the rendering in accordance with the Syriac anteverterunt, but cf. Wis 14:18, 2Ma 11:7 for the former sense, so in classical Greek; only here in N.T., classed not only by Hobart, but also by Vogel, as amongst the medical words in St. Luke, u. s., p. 17.—συνεβάλετο: only here in N.T. in middle, with dative of the person, profuit, so often in Greek authors, especially Polybius; Wis 5:8, Xen., Cyr., i., 2, 8; cf. 1 Corinthians 3:6, “rigavit A. non plantavit” Bengel.—διὰ τῆς χ.: “helped much through grace them which had believed” R.V., margin. This connection of the words seems preferable, as stress is laid upon the fact that the gifts and eloquence of Apollos were only available when God gave the increase—the position of the words is not against this, as they may have been so placed for emphasis. Blass, who joins the phrase with πεπιστ., adds “quamvis ibi abundat”. It does not seem natural to explain the word χάρις here as the Gospel, or to refer it to the grace of the eloquence of Apollos.

 

[brightfame52]

That grace and belief was Apollos. Nice try though.

Vincent Greek
Through grace

Grace has the article, the special grace of God imparted. Expositors differ as to the connection; some joining through grace with them which had believed, insisting on the Greek order of the words; and others with helped, referring to grace conferred on Apollos. I prefer the latter, principally for the reason urged by Meyer, that "the design of the text is to characterize Apollos and his work, and not those who believed.

Expositor's Greek Testament
Acts 18:27. διελθεῖν εἰς, cf. Luke 8:22, Mark 4:35, Latin, trajicere.—προτρεψ.… ἔγραψαν: “encouraged him and wrote,” R.V., so Chrysostom, Erasmus, Grotius, Bengel, Felten, Lumby, Rendall, Knabenbauer: “currentem incitantes” Bengel. But others refer it to the disciples, “wrote exhorting the disciples,” i.e., wrote letters of commendation, 2 Corinthians 3, so Luther, De Wette, Ewald, Zöckler, Alford, Wendt, Weiss, Nösgen, Hackett. Blass thinks that the word can be referred to neither in the sense of cohortari, and prefers the rendering in accordance with the Syriac anteverterunt, but cf. Wis 14:18, 2Ma 11:7 for the former sense, so in classical Greek; only here in N.T., classed not only by Hobart, but also by Vogel, as amongst the medical words in St. Luke, u. s., p. 17.—συνεβάλετο: only here in N.T. in middle, with dative of the person, profuit, so often in Greek authors, especially Polybius; Wis 5:8, Xen., Cyr., i., 2, 8; cf. 1 Corinthians 3:6, “rigavit A. non plantavit” Bengel.—διὰ τῆς χ.: “helped much through grace them which had believed” R.V., margin. This connection of the words seems preferable, as stress is laid upon the fact that the gifts and eloquence of Apollos were only available when God gave the increase—the position of the words is not against this, as they may have been so placed for emphasis. Blass, who joins the phrase with πεπιστ., adds “quamvis ibi abundat”. It does not seem natural to explain the word χάρις here as the Gospel, or to refer it to the grace of the eloquence of Apollos.

They believed because of Grace Acts 18:27

 

[civic]

They believed because of Grace Acts 18:27

on Apollos

 

[brightfame52]

on Apollos

They believed on Christ because of Grace. Apollos preached Christ like Paul did 1 Cor 3

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Why would they believe in a man, you get worse and worse in not wanting God to be Glorified in Salvation

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
makesends said:
I did not say anything about law keeping. This frankly amazes me, that one can consider that of himself he can be the cause of salvific faith.

Where did I say different?

Here

This frankly amazes me, that one can consider that of himself he can be the cause of salvific faith.

No explanation how that is different?

Scripture shows faith precedes regeneration (life)

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Your verses show that we live by him; they do not show that we live by our free will.

But, as continues to happen in these discussions, the proponent of self-determinism must insist that wherever it shows co-incidence (i.e. belief and life) causation according to that sequence is implied. It is not. In fact, there is reason to take, for example, your first passage, John 5:24, to show that it is the other way around from what you claim: not only is the one believing having everlasting life, but he is passed from death to life (past tense, in the English —completed action in the Greek). There is no mention of whether the belief is causal, there. But, I too agree that faith is causal in salvation, since scripture says so, and I assume that is what you are trying to demonstrate —but more importantly, concerning this passage and others you bring to bear on the subject, the question is not whether faith is causal, but whether faith is possible in someone who is at enmity with God and unable to please God. I have yet to see any reason how that is possible, but that God must change the nature of the person who is at enmity to one who loves God, and even generates that salvific faith within that person.

but let me ask you. Who produces faith in Mohammed, Buddha, The watchtower etc

That is not salvific faith. Not at all the same thing. Would you say that faith of theirs "is the substance of what is hoped for", and "the evidence of what is not seen"?

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Precisely right! Just as I have been saying. Join both those statements. It is not knowledge that produces faith. It is not the human mind that produces faith, but the work of God that does it. And so the one in whom God does that work believes.

Romans 10:14–17 (NASB 2020) — 14 How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Can you do more than just quote something —like, explain how that counters what I said? To me, you have just verified what I said, but I'm pretty sure that is not what you intended by it.

makesends said:
Not apart from the Spirit. In fact, it may well be that there are more that are repulsed by the Gospel than those in whom faith is engendered by it.

Amen all that. How does that oppose what I have said?

Scripture is a work of the spirit. And it is a sufficient work

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 1:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Yes, Scripture is a sufficient work. Your point? How does that oppose what I have said?

 

[makesends]

Um

John 5:25 (NASB 2020) — 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

hear and live

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

believe and have life

Amen all that. Again: "Where does that belief come from?" "HOW is one saved?" Salvation is by grace, through faith, and that not of yourselves...

 

[makesends]

Salvation is the gift of God not faith. There is no need for faith to be a gift. That is mere assumption

Seeing as God does not believe for you how can it not (faith) not be of yourself

Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

No. It is an assumption that such a power can be ginned up by mere mortals.

It is reasonable use of language, that since the salvation that is by grace and through faith is a gift, that the grace and faith by which the salvation is, are also given. To say that since they are not specifically mentioned also as being by gift, that therefore they are not by gift, is bad reasoning. The salvation is irrevocably, intrinsically, tied to grace and faith. There is no salvation apart from them. They are gift. I'm guessing you even know of Scripture that actually says things to that effect, besides Ephesians 2. Consider Hebrews 12:2, for example. Faith is authored, and in fact, perfected, by Jesus Christ.

 

[TomL]

No. It is an assumption that such a power can be ginned up by mere mortals.

It is reasonable use of language, that since the salvation that is by grace and through faith is a gift, that the grace and faith by which the salvation is, are also given. To say that since they are not specifically mentioned also as being by gift, that therefore they are not by gift, is bad reasoning. The salvation is irrevocably, intrinsically, tied to grace and faith. There is no salvation apart from them. They are gift. I'm guessing you even know of Scripture that actually says things to that effect, besides Ephesians 2. Consider Hebrews 12:2, for example. Faith is authored, and in fact, perfected, by Jesus Christ.

It's an assumption which cannot be verified and is actually contradicted by scripture

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?

Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven

Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Your theology cannot account for these verses

 

[TomL]

Amen all that. Again: "Where does that belief come from?" "HOW is one saved?" Salvation is by grace, through faith, and that not of yourselves...

Man's response

Acts 16:29–31 (NASB 2020) — 29 And the jailer asked for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas; 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

 

[TomL]

makesends said:
Precisely right! Just as I have been saying. Join both those statements. It is not knowledge that produces faith. It is not the human mind that produces faith, but the work of God that does it. And so the one in whom God does that work believes.

Can you do more than just quote something —like, explain how that counters what I said? To me, you have just verified what I said, but I'm pretty sure that is not what you intended by it.

Can you not understand

Romans 10:14–17 (NASB 2020) — 14 How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
That given revelation man is capable of believing. There is nothing there about faith being infused or effectually caused in the verse

makesends said:
Not apart from the Spirit. In fact, it may well be that there are more that are repulsed by the Gospel than those in whom faith is engendered by it.

The gospel is a Spirit inspired work

Amen all that. How does that oppose what I have said?

Yes, Scripture is a sufficient work. Your point? How does that oppose what I have said?

Scripture is a work of the spirit. And it is a sufficient work

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 1:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


How is scripture sufficient if one cannot believe on it except if effectually caused to believe. You say one thing while affirming another

Show how these are consistent with your theology

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-elect.1116/post-55684

 

[TomL]

You can not see it

Because it is not there

 

[TomL]

makesends said:
makesends said:
I did not say anything about law keeping. This frankly amazes me, that one can consider that of himself he can be the cause of salvific faith.

Where did I say different?



No explanation how that is different?

What you cannot tell how what you state

This frankly amazes me, that one can consider that of himself he can be the cause of salvific faith.
denies cause?
and is not the same as

The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith?
our faith is an instrumental cause of faith

Your verses show that we live by him; they do not show that we live by our free will.

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

should have been

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

the verses all show that faith precedes life

regeneration imparts life, so faith precedes regeneration

that is the point you need to address

But, as continues to happen in these discussions, the proponent of self-determinism must insist that wherever it shows co-incidence (i.e. belief and life) causation according to that sequence is implied. It is not. In fact, there is reason to take, for example, your first passage, John 5:24, to show that it is the other way around from what you claim: not only is the one believing having everlasting life, but he is passed from death to life (past tense, in the English —completed action in the Greek). There is no mention of whether the belief is causal, there. But, I too agree that faith is causal in salvation, since scripture says so, and I assume that is what you are trying to demonstrate —but more importantly, concerning this passage and others you bring to bear on the subject, the question is not whether faith is causal, but whether faith is possible in someone who is at enmity with God and unable to please God. I have yet to see any reason how that is possible, but that God must change the nature of the person who is at enmity to one who loves God, and even generates that salvific faith within that person.

That is not salvific faith. Not at all the same thing. Would you say that faith of theirs "is the substance of what is hoped for", and "the evidence of what is not seen"?

Not if read the next verse

John 5:25 (NASB 2020) — 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

its hear and live


living follows after believing in all the verses most of which you have not addressed

is faith possible

what do these tell you

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?

Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven

Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”

unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

All those are contrary to your view.

 

[TomL]

They believed because of Grace Acts 18:27

Um, sending and inspiring one to preach is grace

nothing there about infused or effectually caused faith

 

[TomL]

That is not salvific faith. Not at all the same thing. Would you say that faith of theirs "is the substance of what is hoped for", and "the evidence of what is not seen"?

So you admit man is capable of faith in all kind of religions but just not Christianity?

How is it they have that inherent capacity to believe in all other religions?

To have faith in Joseph Smith?

To have faith in the watchtower society?

Faith in mohammed?

Faith in the buddha?

Faith in a plurality of Gods?

Where did that ability come from?

 

[Rockson]

It's inward grace in regeneration by the Spirit. God puts the Spirit in the redeemed Ezk 36:27

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

So it is effectually caused

So you admit man is capable of faith in all kind of religions but just not Christianity?

How is it they have that inherent capacity to believe in all other religions?

To have faith in Joseph Smith?

To have faith in the watchtower society?

Faith in mohammed?

Faith in the buddha?

Faith in a plurality of Gods?

Where did that ability come from?

And we could add to that how can they even have a desire to serve God that is if Calvinism, were true?