The Elect

[praise_yeshua]

Agreed. He does not zap. The believer is very much involved in what God by grace has given him, and apart from God's rebirth of him, he is incapable of belief. Salvation is entirely of grace, from start to finish.

Human life is a gift. The Gospel is a gift.

The Gospel must be heard and that includes more than just audible acknowledgement.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That is an assumption

Faith is not a work and faith establishes that it is by grace

Romans 4:1–5 (NASB 2020) — 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Romans 4:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

There would be no faith without the gift of God. However, faith is "inert" without the willful action of man.

The arguments Calvinists make are overly simplistic.

 

[Handaan]

ok

But there is no such thing as unconditional salvation

1 Corinthians 1:21 (NASB 2020) — 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

I'm assuming that your statement "There is no such thing as unconditional salvation" also means there is no unconditional election. For the Calvinist, “unconditional election” means that God does not foresee any action or condition, including faith, that induces him to choose one individual over another. Rather, election rests on God’s arbitrary decision to effectuate faith in whomever he is pleased to save.

I'll go with this one.

Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth
1 Timothy 2:4

What seems like a simple statement by Paul, that God wants to see "all" people find salvation, becomes very complex based on one's assumptions.

John Calvin expressed it in this way:

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

Some are predestined to salvation, others to damnation.… Regarding the lost: it was His good pleasure to doom to destruction.… Since the disposition of all things is in the hands of God and He can give life or death at His pleasure, He dispenses and ordains by His judgment that some, from their mother’s womb, are destined irrevocably to eternal death in order to glorify His name in their perdition.

I just can't get into that.

Is God's love unconditional? Yes. God's love does not depend on circumstance. God is love (1 Jn. 4:8, 16). This is true from everlasting to everlasting.

Does God's love save us? No. God's love is what provided the means for salvation. It's in the Bible. For God SO loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...God's love drove Him to provide the means of Salvation - that is Jesus Christ.

Here is a simple question that will make it clear: Does God love everyone? Yes. Is everyone saved? No. Why not?

Because God, in His wisdom and love, set a condition upon man: obedience.

We have this condition. We can choose to obey the Gospel or not. God still loves us. In His love for mankind He will allow man to make his own decision. Many will walk the path to destruction. Few will walk the path to salvation. Always remember and never forget...God is love.

And God's love is unconditional - but His. Salvation. Is. Not!

 

[TomL]

I'm assuming that your statement "There is no such thing as unconditional salvation" also means there is no unconditional election. For the Calvinist, “unconditional election” means that God does not foresee any action or condition, including faith, that induces him to choose one individual over another. Rather, election rests on God’s arbitrary decision to effectuate faith in whomever he is pleased to save.

I'll go with this one.

Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth
1 Timothy 2:4

What seems like a simple statement by Paul, that God wants to see "all" people find salvation, becomes very complex based on one's assumptions.

John Calvin expressed it in this way:



I just can't get into that.

Is God's love unconditional? Yes. God's love does not depend on circumstance. God is love (1 Jn. 4:8, 16). This is true from everlasting to everlasting.

Does God's love save us? No. God's love is what provided the means for salvation. It's in the Bible. For God SO loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...God's love drove Him to provide the means of Salvation - that is Jesus Christ.

Here is a simple question that will make it clear: Does God love everyone? Yes. Is everyone saved? No. Why not?

Because God, in His wisdom and love, set a condition upon man: obedience.

We have this condition. We can choose to obey the Gospel or not. God still loves us. In His love for mankind He will allow man to make his own decision. Many will walk the path to destruction. Few will walk the path to salvation. Always remember and never forget...God is love.

And God's love is unconditional - but His. Salvation. Is. Not!

Amen

 

[TomL]

There would be no faith without the gift of God. However, faith is "inert" without the willful action of man.

The arguments Calvinists make are overly simplistic.

Faith: Is it a gift infused, a gift received, or a decision to believe?​

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJ)

There are several views of the role of faith in Ephesians Chapter 2 verses 8-9. It might be helpful to examine briefly these views. These two verses are acknowledged to be scripture by those who accept the New Testament. The different concepts of the role of faith come from trying to understand what these two verses mean. There are, at least, three basic views regarding the role of faith in these two verses.

In brief, the views are as follows.

1. Faith as an infused gift of God. Faith is believed to be infused into the person who is dead-like. While dead, they become gifted with saving faith. In this sense, faith is an infused gift from God. This view holds that no one is saved unless God imparted the gift of faith into them.

2. Faith as a received gift of God. The gift of faith is welcomed and received by a lost sinner who feels his or her deep need of salvation. With this gift of faith, he or she believes the gospel. This view emphasizes the acceptance of the "gift" of faith by the sinner. The sinner willingly and knowingly receives the gift of faith and has believing faith. In this sense, the sinner willingly, knowingly, and actively receives the gift of faith.

3. Faith as a personal decision to believe the gospel. This view holds that the gift of God does not refer to the word, faith; rather it refers to the whole plan of salvation. This view teaches that the whole "by grace you are saved through faith" plan of salvation is the gift of God. For Israel in the Old Testament, the plan was "by the law you are blessed through obedience." The OT involved the "keeping the law." The New Testament involves "faith in Christ." The OT was a system of "works." The NT is based upon "grace."

1. Infused Faith.

Probably the most popular view is that faith is infused into a sinner. Since the human population is held to be incapable of believing the gospel message, it is necessary for God to impart living faith into the dead and unresponsive sinner. After the Holy Spirit has imparted faith into the sinner, the person is able to accept the gospel of salvation.

This view emphasizes the sovereignty of God in saving souls. Whoever God sovereignly chooses to impart life and faith, comes to faith.

2. Faith is a gift.

It is easy to see why this view would be thought to be the case. A straight forward reading of the passage would lead one to believe that faith was itself the gift. Granting that faith is a gift, a gift still has to be received by the one to whom it is offered. So, even this second view requires acceptance of the gift and belief in the Savior by the lost sinner. In effect, it is similar to the third view. It holds that the sinner has some form of real faith in the value of the offer of the gospel.

3. The gift is not faith but the entire plan of salvation.

To understand this view, one needs to understand that some languages have nouns with gender. For example, nouns in Spanish have masculine, feminine or neuter genders. The words, faith and grace are both feminine in Greek while the word, "that" is neuter. So, the sentence reads as follows.

"For by grace (feminine) you have been saved through faith (feminine), and that (neuter).

Some Greek scholars note that "that (neuter)" must refer to the whole phrase. They argue that if "that (neuter)" referred to "faith (feminine)," the word "that" should be feminine and not neuter.

"that" neuter in Greek is "touto, τοῦτο."

"that" feminine in Greek is "taute, ταύτῃ."

Consequently, the phrase may be read as follows.

("For by grace are you saved through faith") that ... is the gift of God. It is not the OT system of laws. It is not ours personal merit or our good deeds. The gift of God is the plan of salvation that is offered in free grace to all sinners who come in faith to the Savior.

This view thinks that God's sovereignty is shown in the words "by grace" and that human responsibility is shown in the words "through faith." God offers salvation as a gift freely to all. There is just one condition for the gift of salvation. The gift of salvation must be accepted in faith. The free offer of salvation is to all races, nations, tribes, peoples, and languages. It is for wicked sinners, polite sinners, socialites, religious devotees, stoned drug addicts, and social outcasts.

However, there is the one condition on the part of the sinner, "faith." The sinner must "believe" the gospel of the grace of God. This faith is apart from works. It is a non-meritorious faith, but it is an absolutely necessity. Salvation is offered freely, but the sinner must be received the offer by faith.

This last view holds that God works through the Holy Spirit who convicts, compels, and convinces the sinner of his or her need of salvation. However, the Holy Spirit does not force a sinner to accept the gracious offer of salvation. The sinner may choose to resist the Holy Spirit's gracious invitation. Furthermore, this view holds that the sinner must really believe the gospel. God cannot believe for us. We must believe, or we will be eternally damned. In this view, human beings have the responsibility (responsibility, i.e., the ability to respond) to accept the gospel message.

This view believes that God's sovereignty and human responsibility meet in the phrase "for by grace are you saved through faith." Since there is free grace on God's part, and, if there is real faith on the sinner's part, eternal salvation will be the outcome for the sinner.

Have you yourself accepted God's gracious offer of salvation?

Faith: Is it a gift infused, a gift received, or the decision to believe? | Christian Treasury

From what you post, I would say your position is that of 2#

Mine would be 3#

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I've seen on here someone who says Jesus is the elect, not believers.

I've seen on here someone who thinks the earth is flat. SO much for "someone", and their opinion.

1 Thessalonians says otherwise:

And so it does.

IGNORING the Calvie/reformed systematic (which is nothing but "Theology") you still have to deal with Romans 9.

 

[TomL]

I've seen on here someone who says Jesus is the elect, not believers. 1 Thessalonians says otherwise:

NKJV
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, 4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.

NIV
4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you

Jesus is indeed the elect and men are elect in him

There is no election apart from union with Christ

 

[praise_yeshua]

Faith: Is it a gift infused, a gift received, or a decision to believe?​

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJ)

There are several views of the role of faith in Ephesians Chapter 2 verses 8-9. It might be helpful to examine briefly these views. These two verses are acknowledged to be scripture by those who accept the New Testament. The different concepts of the role of faith come from trying to understand what these two verses mean. There are, at least, three basic views regarding the role of faith in these two verses.

In brief, the views are as follows.

1. Faith as an infused gift of God. Faith is believed to be infused into the person who is dead-like. While dead, they become gifted with saving faith. In this sense, faith is an infused gift from God. This view holds that no one is saved unless God imparted the gift of faith into them.

2. Faith as a received gift of God. The gift of faith is welcomed and received by a lost sinner who feels his or her deep need of salvation. With this gift of faith, he or she believes the gospel. This view emphasizes the acceptance of the "gift" of faith by the sinner. The sinner willingly and knowingly receives the gift of faith and has believing faith. In this sense, the sinner willingly, knowingly, and actively receives the gift of faith.

3. Faith as a personal decision to believe the gospel. This view holds that the gift of God does not refer to the word, faith; rather it refers to the whole plan of salvation. This view teaches that the whole "by grace you are saved through faith" plan of salvation is the gift of God. For Israel in the Old Testament, the plan was "by the law you are blessed through obedience." The OT involved the "keeping the law." The New Testament involves "faith in Christ." The OT was a system of "works." The NT is based upon "grace."

1. Infused Faith.

Probably the most popular view is that faith is infused into a sinner. Since the human population is held to be incapable of believing the gospel message, it is necessary for God to impart living faith into the dead and unresponsive sinner. After the Holy Spirit has imparted faith into the sinner, the person is able to accept the gospel of salvation.

This view emphasizes the sovereignty of God in saving souls. Whoever God sovereignly chooses to impart life and faith, comes to faith.

2. Faith is a gift.

It is easy to see why this view would be thought to be the case. A straight forward reading of the passage would lead one to believe that faith was itself the gift. Granting that faith is a gift, a gift still has to be received by the one to whom it is offered. So, even this second view requires acceptance of the gift and belief in the Savior by the lost sinner. In effect, it is similar to the third view. It holds that the sinner has some form of real faith in the value of the offer of the gospel.

3. The gift is not faith but the entire plan of salvation.

To understand this view, one needs to understand that some languages have nouns with gender. For example, nouns in Spanish have masculine, feminine or neuter genders. The words, faith and grace are both feminine in Greek while the word, "that" is neuter. So, the sentence reads as follows.

"For by grace (feminine) you have been saved through faith (feminine), and that (neuter).

Some Greek scholars note that "that (neuter)" must refer to the whole phrase. They argue that if "that (neuter)" referred to "faith (feminine)," the word "that" should be feminine and not neuter.

"that" neuter in Greek is "touto, τοῦτο."

"that" feminine in Greek is "taute, ταύτῃ."

Consequently, the phrase may be read as follows.

("For by grace are you saved through faith") that ... is the gift of God. It is not the OT system of laws. It is not ours personal merit or our good deeds. The gift of God is the plan of salvation that is offered in free grace to all sinners who come in faith to the Savior.

This view thinks that God's sovereignty is shown in the words "by grace" and that human responsibility is shown in the words "through faith." God offers salvation as a gift freely to all. There is just one condition for the gift of salvation. The gift of salvation must be accepted in faith. The free offer of salvation is to all races, nations, tribes, peoples, and languages. It is for wicked sinners, polite sinners, socialites, religious devotees, stoned drug addicts, and social outcasts.

However, there is the one condition on the part of the sinner, "faith." The sinner must "believe" the gospel of the grace of God. This faith is apart from works. It is a non-meritorious faith, but it is an absolutely necessity. Salvation is offered freely, but the sinner must be received the offer by faith.

This last view holds that God works through the Holy Spirit who convicts, compels, and convinces the sinner of his or her need of salvation. However, the Holy Spirit does not force a sinner to accept the gracious offer of salvation. The sinner may choose to resist the Holy Spirit's gracious invitation. Furthermore, this view holds that the sinner must really believe the gospel. God cannot believe for us. We must believe, or we will be eternally damned. In this view, human beings have the responsibility (responsibility, i.e., the ability to respond) to accept the gospel message.

This view believes that God's sovereignty and human responsibility meet in the phrase "for by grace are you saved through faith." Since there is free grace on God's part, and, if there is real faith on the sinner's part, eternal salvation will be the outcome for the sinner.

Have you yourself accepted God's gracious offer of salvation?

Faith: Is it a gift infused, a gift received, or the decision to believe? | Christian Treasury

From what you post, I would say your position is that of 2#

Mine would be 3#

Every good and perfect gift comes from above. I once believed #3 but #3 doesn't stand up fully to scrutiny.

I began to realize many years ago just how blessed we are as human beings. Forget any sense of Eternal things. God has been good to us. We all exercise faith in various things. We mistaken place faith in temporal things that drive our decisions in this life.

Faith is a gift to human existence. It is not entirely absent natural constructs.

 

[makesends]

The gospel, the word of God

Romans 1:16 (ESV) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

2 Timothy 3:15 (NASB 2020) — 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 10:14–17 (NASB 2020) — 14 How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

your quote refers to the regenerated believer

You seem to think that quoting verses should convince me of something, here. I'm not sure what you are trying to convince me of, nor how these do it.

 

[makesends]

That is a statement not proof

Faith is a response of man

Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Nowhere do we read God effectually causes man to believe or infuses faith in him

We read it right there in Ephesians 2.

But it is impossible to please God, and impossible to submit to God's law, without being born again (Romans 8:1-8). Would not one deciding to trust God please God?

 

[makesends]

No offence but I'd encourage you to dial back your use of logically this or that and look around you and see there are so many applications where what you say you know wouldn't be true.

eg. A person is gracious to another and provides them a benefit or a blessing but they are at least required to pick it up and deposit it in their bank. There's no way if you were a recipient of such that you'd later say, "It was nice but it wasn't a TOTAL GRACE thing!" Somebody might ask, "What do you mean?" Then you say, "Well I had to work for it because I had to pick up the cheque and deposit it."

So how do you think it would make the one feel who was so gracious to you if they heard you made such a claim? I think you know. They'd be shocked and would probably say something like, "Here I was totally gracious to them and they aren't appreciating it! They worked simply because I told them they had to come and pick it up????" They might add how crazy can one get?

So God has provided salvation for us. For the reason that he tells us that we have to believe and receive YES we have to do it how about we not insult him by saying we worked in so doing what he asked. Sorry but this is what Calvinistic thinking basically does so the solution? Strongly consider giving it up as it's not being nice to the giver.

God is not writing checks. He IS our salvation.

 

[makesends]

Consider though salvation is still entirely of grace without though your unnecessary stipulations.

How so, and what are my unnecessary stipulations?

 

[makesends]

That is an assumption

Faith is not a work and faith establishes that it is by grace

Romans 4:1–5 (NASB 2020) — 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Romans 4:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Explain. How do those verses make your point?

 

[makesends]

Regeneration - life follows faith. It does not precede it

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

John 5:24–25 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

Explain. How do those verses make your point?

 

[makesends]

Human life is a gift. The Gospel is a gift.

The Gospel must be heard and that includes more than just audible acknowledgement.

Agreed. And how does the dead hear?

 

[brightfame52]

Agreed. And how does the dead hear?

Jesus Himself tells us who it is that hears the word of God In 8:47

 

[Rockson]

God is not writing checks. He IS our salvation.

God isn't a door (John 10:7) either but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid way of revealing with an analogy something of Jesus being OUR SALVATION!

So I take it then you do at least understand the principle that one doesn't have to consider they've worked for something merely because they've been told they need to do something in relation to possessing something. Now that point has been scored you have every reason not to persist in insisting someone doing something of their own abilities it doesn't have to mean they've worked for it.

 

[TomL]

Explain. How do those verses make your point?

Regeneration imparts life

faith precedes the reception of life

therefore faith precedes regeneration

 

[TomL]

Explain. How do those verses make your point?

Faith is contrasted to work and shown to establish that is of grace

 

[TomL]

We read it right there in Ephesians 2.

Nothing in Eph 2 speaks of infused or effectually caused faith

But it is impossible to please God, and impossible to submit to God's law, without being born again (Romans 8:1-8). Would not one deciding to trust God please God?

Righteous is by faith not law keeping

No one can please God by law keeping. They can by faith however