That is where trust comes in.
The Elect
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
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Handaan
Active member
Jesus’ famous prophetic discourse in Mark 13 contains three references to persons chosen for salvation.
20 And unless the Lord had shortened the days, no human being would be saved (rescued); but for the sake of the elect, His chosen ones (those whom He picked out for Himself), He has shortened the days. [Dan. 12:1.]
21 And then if anyone says to you, See, here is the Christ (the Messiah)! or, Look, there He is! do not believe it.
22 False Christs (Messiahs) and false prophets will arise and show signs and [work] miracles to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (those God has chosen out for Himself).
23 But look to yourselves and be on your guard; I have told you everything beforehand.
24 But in those days, after [the affliction and oppression and distress of] that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; [Isa. 13:10.]
25 And the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [Isa. 34:4.]
26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great (kingly) power and glory (majesty and splendor). [Dan. 7:13, 14.]
27 And then He will send out the angels and will gather together His elect (those He has picked out for Himself) from the four winds, from the farthest bounds of the earth to the farthest bounds of heaven.
Mark 13:20–27
In a manner reminiscent of Old Testament prophets, Jesus predicts events near and far in the same message: the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and his own second coming at the end of the age. He warns of trouble such as the world has not seen from its creation by God until now.
In fact, things will get so bad that “if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days”. The purpose for which God will reduce the length of the terrible times ahead is to protect his chosen people. Jesus teaches that God has chosen some people and will act on their behalf to lessen the intensity of the coming tribulation.
He warns his hearers not to be easily misled when they hear of sightings of pseudo-messiahs: “False christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect” (Mark 13:22). Once more Jesus teaches that God has chosen people and will protect them. Here he promises to keep them from being duped by the miracles of the false christs who are sure to appear.
20 And unless the Lord had shortened the days, no human being would be saved (rescued); but for the sake of the elect, His chosen ones (those whom He picked out for Himself), He has shortened the days. [Dan. 12:1.]
21 And then if anyone says to you, See, here is the Christ (the Messiah)! or, Look, there He is! do not believe it.
22 False Christs (Messiahs) and false prophets will arise and show signs and [work] miracles to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (those God has chosen out for Himself).
23 But look to yourselves and be on your guard; I have told you everything beforehand.
24 But in those days, after [the affliction and oppression and distress of] that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; [Isa. 13:10.]
25 And the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [Isa. 34:4.]
26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great (kingly) power and glory (majesty and splendor). [Dan. 7:13, 14.]
27 And then He will send out the angels and will gather together His elect (those He has picked out for Himself) from the four winds, from the farthest bounds of the earth to the farthest bounds of heaven.
Mark 13:20–27
In a manner reminiscent of Old Testament prophets, Jesus predicts events near and far in the same message: the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and his own second coming at the end of the age. He warns of trouble such as the world has not seen from its creation by God until now.
In fact, things will get so bad that “if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days”. The purpose for which God will reduce the length of the terrible times ahead is to protect his chosen people. Jesus teaches that God has chosen some people and will act on their behalf to lessen the intensity of the coming tribulation.
He warns his hearers not to be easily misled when they hear of sightings of pseudo-messiahs: “False christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect” (Mark 13:22). Once more Jesus teaches that God has chosen people and will protect them. Here he promises to keep them from being duped by the miracles of the false christs who are sure to appear.
Rockson
Well-known member
On what basis? On the basis of predestination? Or rather they revealed to God acceptable choices and they were picked out? Sorry but your verse does not back up Calvinism.
Sorry Handaan but none of this backs up Calvinistic beliefs. Bringing along side of it other scriptures we see how it must be interpreted. People that are making right choices will be chosen for deliverance.
you are of course correct. There is nothing in Mark 13 which speaks of unconditional election.
The fact of the matter election is not unconditional but in Christ
makesends
Well-known member
Your whole line of statements mentions what GOD did. I'd say that is plenty to show that he effectually causes men to believe, and that is how he does it! HE does it!
And his Word (and the Gospel) will not return to him void, but will accomplish everything for which he sent it.
makesends
Well-known member
Yes, the gift is salvation, grammatically, and logically, then, since salvation is by grace, the grace is also gift, as is the faith. This is not the work of man.
makesends
Well-known member
Here, you yourself say, "Faith requires knowledge, assent, and trust"
That should convince you then, because who among us has sufficient knowledge, depth of commitment, and integrity of decision to trust such a God? We don't know nearly enough, nor are we steadfast enough, to make such a decision, by a faith that WE can generate. It is God who does it in us. Does one trust oneself, or God for this?
Does not one's own lack of faithfulness witness to their lack of ability here? "For it is God who works in us, both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Handaan
Active member
@Rockson No problem I'm not trying to back up Calvinist Beliefs.
@TomL Correct but it does contain three references to persons chosen for salvation.
I like the Parable of the Persistent Widow (Luke 18:7) where Jesus applies the parable in his statement “And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night?”
makesends
Well-known member
Look again, brother. Grammatically, it is the salvation that is expressed as a gift, yes, but logically, since the salvation is by grace through faith, both the grace and faith are also the gift. The passage even goes to the trouble to show it is not by man's effort or deed ("work"), as others do, that if it is by our doing, then it is not grace.
civic
Well-known member
God requires man to believe , God does not zap anyone with irresistible faith
makesends
Well-known member
Agreed. He does not zap. The believer is very much involved in what God by grace has given him, and apart from God's rebirth of him, he is incapable of belief. Salvation is entirely of grace, from start to finish.
ok
But there is no such thing as unconditional salvation
1 Corinthians 1:21 (NASB 2020) — 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
The gospel, the word of God
Romans 1:16 (ESV) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
2 Timothy 3:15 (NASB 2020) — 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Romans 10:14–17 (NASB 2020) — 14 How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
your quote refers to the regenerated believer
That is a statement not proof
Faith is a response of man
Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Nowhere do we read God effectually causes man to believe or infuses faith in him
Rockson
Well-known member
No offence but I'd encourage you to dial back your use of logically this or that and look around you and see there are so many applications where what you say you know wouldn't be true.
eg. A person is gracious to another and provides them a benefit or a blessing but they are at least required to pick it up and deposit it in their bank. There's no way if you were a recipient of such that you'd later say, "It was nice but it wasn't a TOTAL GRACE thing!" Somebody might ask, "What do you mean?" Then you say, "Well I had to work for it because I had to pick up the cheque and deposit it."
So how do you think it would make the one feel who was so gracious to you if they heard you made such a claim? I think you know. They'd be shocked and would probably say something like, "Here I was totally gracious to them and they aren't appreciating it! They worked simply because I told them they had to come and pick it up????" They might add how crazy can one get?
So God has provided salvation for us. For the reason that he tells us that we have to believe and receive YES we have to do it how about we not insult him by saying we worked in so doing what he asked. Sorry but this is what Calvinistic thinking basically does so the solution? Strongly consider giving it up as it's not being nice to the giver.
Rockson
Well-known member
Consider though salvation is still entirely of grace without though your unnecessary stipulations.
That is an assumption
Faith is not a work and faith establishes that it is by grace
Romans 4:1–5 (NASB 2020) — 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Romans 4:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Regeneration - life follows faith. It does not precede it
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
John 5:24–25 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
civic
Well-known member
Well said !
