The Elect

The analogy of being “dead” is seen throughout the scriptures, but can it be demonstrated to mean that mankind is born completely and totally unable to willingly respond to God Himself, as the Calvinists presume? Are we born dead like Lazarus, a corpse rotting in the tomb (a link scripture never draws), or are we dead like the Prodigal, a loved one living in rebellion? Scripture supports the latter rather than the former:

“For this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate” (Luke 15:24).

Spiritual deadness seems to be equated with “lostness” or “in rebellion,” not as “total inability to respond.” Likewise, in Romans 6:11, Paul also teaches the believers to count themselves “dead to sin.” A consistent Calvinist would have to interpret this to mean that believers are completely unable to sin when tempted. Of course, that is not the case. Paul is teaching that we are to separate ourselves from sin, in much the same way we were once separated by our sin from God. “Deadness” here connotes the idea of being separated, like the son was from his father, not the incapacitation of the will to respond to God’s appeal to be reconciled from our separation.

Plus, if we examine the story of Lazarus more closely it reveals a truth that flies in the face of the Calvinistic conclusion.

“So Jesus then said to them plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead, and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe…’ (John 11:14-15).

The lesson the Lord wishes to teach his followers is not the conclusion that Calvinists draw from this text (i.e. God effectually makes the spiritually dead alive in the same way He raises Lazarus); but instead, the Lord’s expressed desire is so that the witnesses “may believe.” Clearly, an outward sign is said to have the ability to help individuals believe, something that seems completely superfluous given the effectuality of regeneration on the Calvinistic system. The text goes on to say:

“Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?’ She said to Him, ‘Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world’ … Jesus said to her, ‘Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?’’ (John 11:25-27; 40).

Once again, it is the faith of the eye witnesses, not Lazarus, that Jesus seems to be focused upon in this discourse. Furthermore, the responsibility is put onto the individual to believe so as to live, not the other way around. The focus of this text is on the believing response of the witnesses to Christ’s miracle and the believers eventual resurrection from the dead. Remember, Lazarus was a believer, not Totally Depraved, so this miracle more likely represents the believer’s resurrection from the dead than a irresistible soteriological drawing of the lost to faith.

“So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, ‘Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me’… Therefore many of the Jews who came to Mary, and saw what He had done, believed in Him” (John 11:41-42; 45).

Jesus expresses a desire for the witnesses to believe based upon what they have seen, something on Calvinism that is a certainty for the Elect ones and absolutely impossible for the Reprobates, regardless of what miracle either of them witness. Notice that Jesus describes the faith of the eye witnesses as being a direct response to what they saw, not a supernatural inward work of regeneration, or an unconditional choice before time began.

No where in this passage, or any other, do we find the concept of spiritual deadness as being in reference to total inability, yet the story of Lazarus is one of the most referenced proof texts cited by Calvinists in defense of this doctrine.

Let’s consider other passages which use the analogy of “deadness.” For instance, take a look at Jesus’ own words to the church in Sardis:

“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.” (Rev. 3:1-6)

Clearly, Jesus fully expects this church to heed his warning and respond in repentance despite the fact that he called them “dead.” The Calvinist may object saying, “But, Jesus is speaking to the church, not to the lost, so that does not apply to our point of contention.” I disagree, and here is why:

  1. The point is simply to show how the analogy of being “dead” doesn’t necessarily imply “corpse-like inability.” This use of the word illustrates that point because clearly those in the church are expected to “wake up” and “repent.” The burden is on the Calvinist to produce examples where the analogy explicitly demonstrates the concept of “total inability” to respond to God’s life-giving Word.
  2. The Calvinistic teachings on “Compatibilism” equally applies to the choices of the Saints (the elect) and the Reprobates (the non-elect). According to the Compatibilist, a person will always choose in accordance with his or her greatest desire, which is determined by the God given nature and Divinely controlled circumstances in which that individual makes the choice.[1] Therefore, the choice of a Christian is as much under the “sovereign meticulous providence” of God as are the choices of the Reprobates. So, according to a consistent Calvinist, the “dead” believers in Sardis were as incapable of response to Christ’s appeals to repent, as were the “dead reprobates” being called by the gospel to repentance for the very first time. In other words, if Compatibilism is true, then both the “dead” believer in Sardis and the “dead” reprobate is equally incapable of repentance apart from God’s gracious work to effectuate that willing response. Thus, the burden of proof is still on the Calvinist to demonstrate that the analogy of being “dead,” in both instances, equals “corpse-like inability.”
Paul is known to use the analogy of being “dead” along side the concept of being included “in Him,” as we see here:

In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions” (Col. 2:11-13).

Here Paul seems to relate circumcision to being made alive. Deut. 10:16 says, “Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer,” which strongly seems to indicate it is man’s responsibility to humbly repent, as seen repeated in Jer. 4:4:

Circumcise yourselves to the LORD and remove the foreskins of your heart, Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Or else My wrath will go forth like fire And burn with none to quench it, Because of the evil of your deeds.’”

This parallels Paul’s teaching in Ephesians 1 and 2, which likewise references the saints as having once been dead but being made alive by God. Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists affirm that we were all once dead in our sins and have been made alive together with Him. The point of contention is over whether the dead sinner has any responsibility in his being raised up. Is the concept of “deadness” meant to suggest that mankind has no responsibility (ability to respond) to God’s appeal to “repent and live” (Num. 21:8-9; Ezk. 18:32; 33:11; John 6:40; John 20:31).

The text indicates that we are “made alive together with Him,” and it is mankind’s responsibility to be included “in Him,” through faith:

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory” (Eph. 1:13-14).

When were you “mark in Him?”

“When you believed,” according to the text.

Clearly, one must believe in order to be marked “in Him” and receive the Holy Spirit, not the other way around. It is “in Him” that we are “made alive” or “raised,” according to the texts quoted above.

No where in the Bible is the concept of being “dead” connoted to mean that mankind has no responsibility to humble themselves and repent in faith so as to be “made alive together with Him.” As Paul teaches in Romans 8:10, “If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.”

The theme of being “raised up,” “made alive,” “exalted,” or “lifted up” is carried throughout the scriptures, and it is not difficult to see the expectation God has for those who He will graciously raise up:

1 Peter 5:5-6: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.” Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.

James 4:10: “Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.”

Matthew 23:12: For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Psalm 18:27: You save the humble but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.

Psalm 147:6: The Lord sustains the humble but casts the wicked to the ground.

Matthew 18:4: Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18:14: “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Not once in scripture does it teach that God is the one responsible for humbling us so that we would be “lifted up,” “raised up,” “exalted” or “make alive together with Him.”soteriology101

hope this helps !!!
Until one is alive, he cant believe spiritually, spiritual things need to be spiritually discerned 1 Cor 2 which is impossible without the Spirit.
 
and one becomes alive after they BELIEVE the gospel, Not before. :)
You have to be alive to believe. One cant hear spiritually if they are not of God Jn 8:43,47

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. He means Spiritually hear, they did hear naturally
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
 
You have to be alive to believe. One cant hear spiritually if they are not of God Jn 8:43,47

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. He means Spiritually hear, they did hear naturally
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
All men are alive and can respond to the gospel. Men are not corpses- men are not the night of the living dead-zombies- thats calvinism not reality. This is nothing but Sci- Fi theology, fantasy.
 
Right dead in sin, alienated from the life of God
dead in sin just means one does not have the Holy Spirit in them. :)

since you have the Holy Spirit in you do you still sin, the bible says the believer is dead to sin.

now I will get ready for the dodge ball game. :)

you see calvinism is nothing but human philosophy and knowledge- Col 2:8- and void of the power of God to overcome sin, become a new creature in Christ, the old many is buried and the new man is alive. Its nothing but theory, There is no power in tulip since there is no seeking after God, holiness, righteousness, self control, humilty etc..... for those would all be works. its a lifeless theology.:)
 
dead in sin just means one does not have the Holy Spirit in them. :)

since you have the Holy Spirit in you do you still sin, the bible says the believer is dead to sin.

now I will get ready for the dodge ball game. :)

you see calvinism is nothing but human philosophy and knowledge- Col 2:8- and void of the power of God to overcome sin, become a new creature in Christ, the old many is buried and the new man is alive. Its nothing but theory, There is no power in tulip since there is no seeking after God, holiness, righteousness, self control, humilty etc..... for those would all be works. its a lifeless theology.:)
Dead in sin means dead to God in spiritual and salvific matters
 
Dead in sin means dead to God in spiritual and salvific matters
Then the disciples must of been dead in sin as the elect sheep.

We know that the disciples did not understand the gospel as it was hidden from them until after Pentecost. Jesus even said that He hid it from them.

Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Luke 18:34
But the disciples did not understand any of these things. The meaning was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend what He was saying

Romans 16:25
Now to Him who is able to strengthen you by my gospel and by the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery concealed for ages past

1 Corinthians 2:7
No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began.

Ephesians 3:1-5
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.


Gospel Summary

1- Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures
2- Jesus was buried , in a guarded tomb
3- Jesus was raised from the dead, resurrected on the 3rd day bodily
4- Jesus was seen by many witnesses over 40 days before His Ascension

Jesus died for the sin of the world as the Lamb of God who taketh them away ( John 1:29 ) and Rose from the dead as the only sign He would give an unbelieving people who rejected Him proving He was the promised Messiah who had the power over sin, death/grave and the devil having been raised from the dead conquering them all. The gospel is a historical fact verified by many witnesses. The biblical principle of letting every fact be confirmed by the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses. This gospel is for all the world, for all sinners to come freely and receive the forgiveness of their sins by the atonement He made for ALL the WORLD as per 1 John 2:2.

John 1:12

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 3:16-18
“For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 20:30-31
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

The new birth being born again comes through the message of the gospel. It doesn't come before but after faith.

1 Peter 1:21-24

Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.

So Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ !

Romans 10
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

hope this helps !!!
 
Then the disciples must of been dead in sin as the elect sheep.

We know that the disciples did not understand the gospel as it was hidden from them until after Pentecost. Jesus even said that He hid it from them.

Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Luke 18:34
But the disciples did not understand any of these things. The meaning was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend what He was saying

Romans 16:25
Now to Him who is able to strengthen you by my gospel and by the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery concealed for ages past

1 Corinthians 2:7
No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began.

Ephesians 3:1-5
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.


Gospel Summary

1- Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures
2- Jesus was buried , in a guarded tomb
3- Jesus was raised from the dead, resurrected on the 3rd day bodily
4- Jesus was seen by many witnesses over 40 days before His Ascension

Jesus died for the sin of the world as the Lamb of God who taketh them away ( John 1:29 ) and Rose from the dead as the only sign He would give an unbelieving people who rejected Him proving He was the promised Messiah who had the power over sin, death/grave and the devil having been raised from the dead conquering them all. The gospel is a historical fact verified by many witnesses. The biblical principle of letting every fact be confirmed by the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses. This gospel is for all the world, for all sinners to come freely and receive the forgiveness of their sins by the atonement He made for ALL the WORLD as per 1 John 2:2.

John 1:12

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 3:16-18
“For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 20:30-31
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

The new birth being born again comes through the message of the gospel. It doesn't come before but after faith.

1 Peter 1:21-24

Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.

So Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ !

Romans 10
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

hope this helps !!!
Lol, everyone was dead to God up to the point God regenerated them. The Disciples, Paul, Abraham and on and on
 
Can one be saved and not regenerated? Yes or no
We are born into the world in a spiritually lost condition, however Jesus saves His People from that condition by giving them Spiritual life, afterwards the Gospel is sent to them to believe and be converted.
 
We are born into the world in a spiritually lost condition, however Jesus saves His People from that condition by giving them Spiritual life, afterwards the Gospel is sent to them to believe and be converted.
A simple yes or no will suffice . Let me know when you can give a direct answer to my question . Thanks
 
Right. See, I knew you'd make some kind of remark based on it. You weren't like this before.
But the simple fact is that he's completely ACCURATE in what he says, according to the Calvinist paradigm.

"Elect" (as chosen before creation), will get born again/saved, will persevere, and have NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER.

Everybody else will BURN, and they have no choice.

SImple as that.
 
Back
Top Bottom