The Elect

[civic]

Release from captivity




Jesus conquering death says nothing about paying for sin,

Resurrection conquers death



Again Jesus conquering the devil says nothing about paying for sin

In the ransom theory (one view of it)

Jesus gave himself up to ransom man who the devil supposedly had a legal claim to. Satan thought it was a good idea so he accepted it.

Unfortunately he could not hold him


Jesus dying to reason of moral influence showing love for your neighbor says niotyhing at all about paying for sin



I don't hate anything

Show me where in the bible it is explicitedly stated Christ paid for sin

I will show you what the bible does say

Romans 3:21–26 (NASB 2020) — 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished; 26 for the demonstration, that is, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


The bible teaches forgiveness not payment which is not forgiveness. Because of Christ sacrifice, men can be forgiven when they believe

not automatically, as would be the case in a commercial transaction

And sorry, i have given this far more critical thought than you have.

amen

 

[Dizerner]

amen

i prefer a-women

 

[civic]

I am indeed familiar with it.

But Scripture says things like "I called you by name" and "before you were in the womb I knew you."

It uses the language of individuality, and those are personal terms.

For a full length description of my own thoughts see here:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-mystery-of-election-from-this-classical-arminian-point-of-view.210/

Yes to who King David anyone else ?

That’s not a universal statement but a specific one.

 

[Dizerner]

That’s not a universal statement but a specific one.

Precisely my point...

 

[TomL]

Precisely my point...

Maybe he is meaning it is not normative but rather exceptional

 

[makesends]

If you are claiming God unconditionally chose men to be believers before the foundation of the earth

Eph 1:4

It shows believers were chosen to be holy (not unconditional)

Eph 1:3 which shows all spiritual blessing are in Christ (not unconditional)

Eph 1:13, Rom 16:7

Which show one is in Christ in time based upon faith

How is "chosen to be holy" not unconditional?
How is "all spiritual blessing are in Christ" not unconditional?

What has "Which show one is in Christ in time based upon faith"

makesends said:
Ok. Believers selected from the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless. Problem?

Not individually but corporately God determined that those in Christ (his body - the church) through faith would be holy and blameless and be predestined to adoption and conformity to Christ

He did not determine anyone to be a believer

I agree he did corporately, which implies he did individually, also, since the corporate incorporates individuals, and since he has ordained all things whatsoever comes to pass.

How do you know that he did not determine anyone to be a believer?

 

[makesends]

For the sake of any guests the Calvinist Incorrect view is called monergism—from two Greek words that mean “one” and “energy” or “action.” Monergism is the belief that salvation is all God’s doing from beginning to end without any cooperation from the person being saved other than what God instills in that person.

The truth of the matter is “synergism”—the belief that salvation is all of grace but requires free cooperation for it to be activated in a person’s life.

The Calvinist view is not that man does not cooperate, but that his cooperation is not effective in causing his salvation. His salvation is entirely of grace. Salvation is by grace, through faith, and that not of the person being saved. The Salvation, which is a gift of God, is through faith, which implies that the faith is also gift. One's faith is unable to save, unless it is given one by the Spirit of God; it is not generated by the decision or by the effort of man.

 

[TomL]

How is "chosen to be holy" not unconditional?
How is "all spiritual blessing are in Christ" not unconditional?

Because it is only in Christ

What has "Which show one is in Christ in time based upon faith"

???????

One is in Christ when they trust in him

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV) — 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

makesends said:
Ok. Believers selected from the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless. Problem?

That is not men unconditionally selected to be believers

I agree he did corporately, which implies he did individually, also, since the corporate incorporates individuals, and since he has ordained all things whatsoever comes to pass.

Individually in time when they believe

How do you know that he did not determine anyone to be a believer?

1 there are no verses which state he did

2 Believe is something man must do

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

 

[civic]

The Calvinist view is not that man does not cooperate, but that his cooperation is not effective in causing his salvation. His salvation is entirely of grace. Salvation is by grace, through faith, and that not of the person being saved. The Salvation, which is a gift of God, is through faith, which implies that the faith is also gift. One's faith is unable to save, unless it is given one by the Spirit of God; it is not generated by the decision or by the effort of man.

But we know on numerous occasions Jesus declared it was their faith which saved them, healed them. Not the faith He zapped them with that caused them to believe

 

[TomL]

The Calvinist view is not that man does not cooperate, but that his cooperation is not effective in causing his salvation. His salvation is entirely of grace. Salvation is by grace, through faith, and that not of the person being saved. The Salvation, which is a gift of God, is through faith, which implies that the faith is also gift. One's faith is unable to save, unless it is given one by the Spirit of God; it is not generated by the decision or by the effort of man.

This is scriptures view

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

 

[Frank Russell]

Equating the chosen to the saved is what leads to the 144,000 doctrine of the Jehovah Witnesses. This hypothesis is definitely going in the wrong direction.

 

[makesends]

But we know on numerous occasions Jesus declared it was their faith which saved them, healed them. Not the faith He zapped them with that caused them to believe

But we know that "their faith" is theirs because it is done in them. Salvific faith is, grammatically, in Ephesians 2:8-9, a gift —salvation being the gift that is through faith.

 

[makesends]

This is scriptures view

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

It is not the only scripture mention.

This too is Scripture's view: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph. 2:8,9

 

[makesends]

Because it is only in Christ



???????

One is in Christ when they trust in him

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV) — 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,






That is not men unconditionally selected to be believers


Individually in time when they believe



1 there are no verses which state he did

2 Believe is something man must do

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

You said,
TomL said:
If you are claiming God unconditionally chose men to be believers before the foundation of the earth

I did not claim that God unconditionally chose men to be believers, but I prodded you to back up your statements. What I do claim is that God chose whom he did, not conditioned upon anything they would do, but upon his own choice and plan.

I agree with you that man is in Christ when he believes. But it is not logical to say that God does nothing to bring it about in God's own way and in his own timing, nor that he had not planned for it to happen, just as it does, from the foundation of the world. Our salvation is in God's hands.

 

[TomL]

You said,
TomL said:
If you are claiming God unconditionally chose men to be believers before the foundation of the earth

I did not claim that God unconditionally chose men to be believers, but I prodded you to back up your statements. What I do claim is that God chose whom he did, not conditioned upon anything they would do, but upon his own choice and plan.

I agree with you that man is in Christ when he believes. But it is not logical to say that God does nothing to bring it about in God's own way and in his own timing, nor that he had not planned for it to happen, just as it does, from the foundation of the world. Our salvation is in God's hands.

Lets see

1 God originated the plan of Salvation
2 He sent Christ to die
3 He sent the Holy Spirit
4 the Holy Spirit inspired the gospel
5 The Spirit sends men to preach it
6 The Holy Spirit convicts the world

I would say that is plenty

He does not effectually cause men to believe

 

[TomL]

It is not the only scripture mention.

This too is Scripture's view: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph. 2:8,9

Of course, it by grace. No one deserves salvation

The gift here however is salvation, as seen

Romans 6:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[TomL]

But we know that "their faith" is theirs because it is done in them. Salvific faith is, grammatically, in Ephesians 2:8-9, a gift —salvation being the gift that is through faith.

Salvation is the gift not faith

Faith requires knowledge, assent, and trust

saving faith is more than mere intellectual persuasion or convincement of truth. It requires a “decision,” a positive commitment, a willful entrusting of one’s circumstances and destiny into the hands of God in Christ. That is the act of the person, not of God, and that is the reason the Scriptures unanimously represent the person as responsible for faith or unbelief.
Picirilli, Robert. Grace Faith Free Will: Contrasting Views of Salvation: Calvinism & Arminianism (p. 167). Ingram Distribution. Kindle Edition.

God provides the knowledge through the scriptures

Romans 10:14–17 (ESV) — 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
To believe, to trust is man's responsibility

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”






.

 

[civic]

But we know that "their faith" is theirs because it is done in them. Salvific faith is, grammatically, in Ephesians 2:8-9, a gift —salvation being the gift that is through faith.

No that’s reading into all the passages of Jesus something He never taught and using a controversial/ debatable passage as your proof . Faith is not the gift, salvation is the gift. Salvation is by grace.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Salvation is the gift not faith

Faith requires knowledge, assent, and trust

saving faith is more than mere intellectual persuasion or convincement of truth. It requires a “decision,” a positive commitment, a willful entrusting of one’s circumstances and destiny into the hands of God in Christ. That is the act of the person, not of God, and that is the reason the Scriptures unanimously represent the person as responsible for faith or unbelief.
Picirilli, Robert. Grace Faith Free Will: Contrasting Views of Salvation: Calvinism & Arminianism (p. 167). Ingram Distribution. Kindle Edition.

God provides the knowledge through the scriptures

Romans 10:14–17 (ESV) — 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
To believe, to trust is man's responsibility

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”






.

Ditto

 

[TedT]

Salvation is the gift not faith

Faith requires knowledge, assent, and trust

...and an unproven hope, a hope not seen:
Heb 11:1
Berean Literal Bible
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not being seen.

King James Bible
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.