Diserner
Well-known member
Yikes, indeed.
A gross misrepresentation and bald denial that Jesus suffered what we deserve on our behalf.
The Elect
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
Yikes, indeed.
A gross misrepresentation and bald denial that Jesus suffered what we deserve on our behalf.
Richard
Active member
The PSA Gospel goes like this: Because of the sin of Adam and Eve we are all totally depraved sinners, because God is holy and righteous he cannot even look upon sin so atonement has to be made to have a relationship with such a holy God or his wrath would destroy mankind. Because of this the sacrificial system was put into place but because we are so depraved and corrupt by sin even our sacrifices would not placate the Father for any length of time. Only a perfect blemish free sacrifice would do. So Jesus came to placate the Fathers wrath and on the cross Jesus took the punishment we deserve on himself. He was our “Propitation”.
The problem with that is: Is this really the gospel or another gospel? PSA wants me to believe that God created humans, knowing they would sin but still holds it against them and because God is holy can’t be near sin and because he is just, has to punish humans because of that sin. Skip the sacrificial system to Jesus who became God’s whipping boy so God didn’t have to pour his wrath on humanity. Wow… Seems legit… It’s said that this belief of the gospel has created more atheist than any other time in history. I don’t have numbers or anything on that but if that is the gospel I don't want anything to do with it.
I wonder what Got question has to say on this subject? I would imagine they would approve of it.
Looks like they do. No problem I have my own copy and paste.
This model of atonement creates many problems with the character of God, Jesus fully revealed and really is the least biblical.
This model negates all the biblical teaching that God is fully revealed in the person of Jesus Christ.
“In the beginning was the Word, the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” – John 1:1&14
“The son is the visible image of the invisible God” – Colossians 1:15
“The Son is the light of God’s glory and imprint of God’s nature” – Hebrews 1:3
“I and the Father are one” – John 10:30
And what is Jesus like?
We can look at his life as recorded in the Gospels and see he was a healer (Matthew 8:16, 12:15, 14:14, 14:46 22:14 just to name a few)
Non-violent (no, the temple scene doesnt say he harmed anyone) (Matthew 26:52)
A Forgiver of even those who murdered him. (Luke 7:48, 23:34)
A Comforter (2 Corinthians 1:5, 2 Corinthians 1:3-4, Matthew 5:4,
Compassionate and completely other serving and self emptying of himself for others. (Philippians 2:6-8)
– This model also pits Father against Son. Those who espouse this theory say it doesn’t because they planned this, designed it and orchestrated it together but that is a false dichotomy. Any way you look at it God tortured and turned his back on his son in this model. If God is Trinity (relational and one), and that’s the view I have, then God could have never forsaken his Son. See more about that here.
– It has a view of God’s holiness that Jesus corrected and redefines in scripture. To be holy (haggios in geek) means to be set apart. Or to be used for the purpose you were made. It is the same meaning as sanctified. Jesus actually defines this for us when he rephrased “Be holy as I am holy” found in Leviticus (Torah), which is found in the explanation of holiness codes or law. What Jesus did (in Luke 6) was say “be compassionate (merciful) as your father is compassionate(merciful).” By doing this, everyone around him would have known what he was doing ( showing that being holy wasn’t what they thought but was about compassion and being merciful). This not only redefines holiness but also puts it under the immutable expression of His love. So being holy is to be like Jesus. Compassionate and full of mercy. Does beating the crap out of your son because you can’t let something go seem compassionate?
– It also has a very religious and legalistic view of God’s Justice. God isn’t and has never been “just” in the legalistic, punitive, and frankly vile way that penal substution has portrayed God to be. In fact NOWHERE in scripture does it plainly say God is “just” as a noun or as a character attribute. It does say however God is LOVE. A noun (1 John 4:8). It’s who the Divine is. Every attribute or characteristic of God falls under this “God is Love”. There is no justice without love for the one being served the justice. There is no scripture, zero, zilch, nada that says because of his demand for justice, God was punishing Jesus for our sins on the cross. For more on the biblical Justice of God click here
– It makes it seem like God can’t forgive without punishing someone first. But the cross didn’t activate God’s forgiveness, it displayed it. The Divine has always been forgiving and always will . Always. For an in depth discussion on forgiveness click here
Jesus as a Propitation
The word “propitation” occurs in Romans 3:25, Hebrews 9:5 and 1 John 2:2, 4:10 . The words in greek are “hilasmos” and “hilaskomai” (hilisterion) which means to show mercy or covering. Propitation is the word many, not all, translations use for this word which implies turning away or appeasing wrath. The word hilastérion or quite simply mercy seat, is used in the Hebrew Bible (old testament) when describing the the covering of the ark of the Covenant, which was sprinkled with the sacrificial atoning blood on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), the day where all sin would be cleansed and purged away. This is what the writers were referring to. The writers were using the same language from the scriptures to describe the At-one-ment of Christ. Propitation and expiation which both imply some type of appeasement of God through violence is not proper usage of the original word and context, especially with the revelation of God we see in Jesus. If anyone was “appeased” or expiated it was man, through seeing that violence is NOT the way of God. So in a sense man, not God, was appeased by the blood as it reveals the self sacrificial, non violent, true nature of God.
It is finished
So there you have it. A non exhaustive list of reasons why the penal substitution model of atonement is anti-christ in nature and not representative of the Gospel message or Jesus, the most express revelation of God. On the cross God did not punish Jesus in our place. Jesus didn’t get the punishment we deserve. He got the punishment humans decided to give him. But the Divine is faithful and instead of reacting with violence, God was in Christ (they are one), reconciling the world to God’s self. The blood of Jesus shows us a better way, a more Christlike way. A way of non violence and peace. The way of grace and the Kingdom of God.
The problem with that is: Is this really the gospel or another gospel? PSA wants me to believe that God created humans, knowing they would sin but still holds it against them and because God is holy can’t be near sin and because he is just, has to punish humans because of that sin. Skip the sacrificial system to Jesus who became God’s whipping boy so God didn’t have to pour his wrath on humanity. Wow… Seems legit… It’s said that this belief of the gospel has created more atheist than any other time in history. I don’t have numbers or anything on that but if that is the gospel I don't want anything to do with it.
I wonder what Got question has to say on this subject? I would imagine they would approve of it.
What is the doctrine of penal substitution? | GotQuestions.org
What is the doctrine of penal substitution? What is the penal substitution understanding of the atonement?
www.gotquestions.org
Looks like they do. No problem I have my own copy and paste.
This model of atonement creates many problems with the character of God, Jesus fully revealed and really is the least biblical.
This model negates all the biblical teaching that God is fully revealed in the person of Jesus Christ.
“In the beginning was the Word, the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” – John 1:1&14
“The son is the visible image of the invisible God” – Colossians 1:15
“The Son is the light of God’s glory and imprint of God’s nature” – Hebrews 1:3
“I and the Father are one” – John 10:30
And what is Jesus like?
We can look at his life as recorded in the Gospels and see he was a healer (Matthew 8:16, 12:15, 14:14, 14:46 22:14 just to name a few)
Non-violent (no, the temple scene doesnt say he harmed anyone) (Matthew 26:52)
A Forgiver of even those who murdered him. (Luke 7:48, 23:34)
A Comforter (2 Corinthians 1:5, 2 Corinthians 1:3-4, Matthew 5:4,
Compassionate and completely other serving and self emptying of himself for others. (Philippians 2:6-8)
– This model also pits Father against Son. Those who espouse this theory say it doesn’t because they planned this, designed it and orchestrated it together but that is a false dichotomy. Any way you look at it God tortured and turned his back on his son in this model. If God is Trinity (relational and one), and that’s the view I have, then God could have never forsaken his Son. See more about that here.
– It has a view of God’s holiness that Jesus corrected and redefines in scripture. To be holy (haggios in geek) means to be set apart. Or to be used for the purpose you were made. It is the same meaning as sanctified. Jesus actually defines this for us when he rephrased “Be holy as I am holy” found in Leviticus (Torah), which is found in the explanation of holiness codes or law. What Jesus did (in Luke 6) was say “be compassionate (merciful) as your father is compassionate(merciful).” By doing this, everyone around him would have known what he was doing ( showing that being holy wasn’t what they thought but was about compassion and being merciful). This not only redefines holiness but also puts it under the immutable expression of His love. So being holy is to be like Jesus. Compassionate and full of mercy. Does beating the crap out of your son because you can’t let something go seem compassionate?
– It also has a very religious and legalistic view of God’s Justice. God isn’t and has never been “just” in the legalistic, punitive, and frankly vile way that penal substution has portrayed God to be. In fact NOWHERE in scripture does it plainly say God is “just” as a noun or as a character attribute. It does say however God is LOVE. A noun (1 John 4:8). It’s who the Divine is. Every attribute or characteristic of God falls under this “God is Love”. There is no justice without love for the one being served the justice. There is no scripture, zero, zilch, nada that says because of his demand for justice, God was punishing Jesus for our sins on the cross. For more on the biblical Justice of God click here
– It makes it seem like God can’t forgive without punishing someone first. But the cross didn’t activate God’s forgiveness, it displayed it. The Divine has always been forgiving and always will . Always. For an in depth discussion on forgiveness click here
Jesus as a Propitation
The word “propitation” occurs in Romans 3:25, Hebrews 9:5 and 1 John 2:2, 4:10 . The words in greek are “hilasmos” and “hilaskomai” (hilisterion) which means to show mercy or covering. Propitation is the word many, not all, translations use for this word which implies turning away or appeasing wrath. The word hilastérion or quite simply mercy seat, is used in the Hebrew Bible (old testament) when describing the the covering of the ark of the Covenant, which was sprinkled with the sacrificial atoning blood on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), the day where all sin would be cleansed and purged away. This is what the writers were referring to. The writers were using the same language from the scriptures to describe the At-one-ment of Christ. Propitation and expiation which both imply some type of appeasement of God through violence is not proper usage of the original word and context, especially with the revelation of God we see in Jesus. If anyone was “appeased” or expiated it was man, through seeing that violence is NOT the way of God. So in a sense man, not God, was appeased by the blood as it reveals the self sacrificial, non violent, true nature of God.
It is finished
So there you have it. A non exhaustive list of reasons why the penal substitution model of atonement is anti-christ in nature and not representative of the Gospel message or Jesus, the most express revelation of God. On the cross God did not punish Jesus in our place. Jesus didn’t get the punishment we deserve. He got the punishment humans decided to give him. But the Divine is faithful and instead of reacting with violence, God was in Christ (they are one), reconciling the world to God’s self. The blood of Jesus shows us a better way, a more Christlike way. A way of non violence and peace. The way of grace and the Kingdom of God.
Johann
Well-known member
Calvin’s Election Doesn’t Work
Justin Johnson
Calvinism doesn’t work. I’ve tried.
No one knows if they are the elect unless they study books on Calvinism. Then everybody thinks they are.
I tried sharing the message of God’s irresistible grace, but it seems that some people are able to resist it. Calvin would suggest that God’s grace must not be given to those people.
They will be the recipients of God’s wrath. After all, someone has to take it since it was all according to God’s will.
I tried to encourage the preaching of the cross to dying souls in dangerous lands, but the young Calvinist reminded me that if they were truly part of the elect God would give them saving faith.
As for the rest, well, there are some people God just hates. Like Esau, right?
So after I put it all in God’s hands and considered how I could best impact the world for my Lord, I started to pray.
First, I prayed for worldwide healing, but realized God had already chosen how everyone would die. Second, I prayed for a vision for my country, but then remembered that God in his sovereignty had chosen each ruler throughout history and that my country was exactly where God wanted it to be.
Lastly, I prayed that God would alter his sovereign will for the salvation of my family members who were obviously not part of the elect. If he could find pleasure in supplying grace to those who were acting according to their total depravity and find mercy upon these sinners, then that would be an event most glorious.
Yet, it seemed that the predestined situation was hopeless.
And this is the system created by Calvin’s election. A system that is without hope to the predestined sinner, without grace to those who need it most, without personal responsibility to the saint, and without the preaching of the cross for salvation.
When I turned to God’s word I found all these things: hope for the sinner; grace to all men; personal responsibility to choose; and the necessity of the cross. God’s word forced me away from Calvinism.
It must not be in God’s sovereign will that I be a Calvinist.
I found election to be a Bible doctrine, but Calvinism was not.
Biblical election concerns God choosing Christ to die for the sins responsible to man’s account. God chose to create man. Man chose to reject God. God chose to die for man. It is now man’s responsibility to choose.
Choose Christ.
Whosoever
Member
From your OP
3. This means a disruption of the Trinity.
Ontological unity is here broadly understood as involving relations between descriptive conceptual elements; in some cases, the concepts will describe entities, facts, properties or relations, and descriptive models will focus on metaphysical aspects of the unifying connections such as holism, emergence, or downwards ...
in a way that relates to existence or being alive
These last two words are what I don't understand. If the relationship of the Father and Son was severed at the cross does that mean God stopped being the Father and Jesus stopped being the Son? If that's what it means then the cross did disrupt the trinity.
Last edited:
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
It worked for me. Must be a problem at your end.
Diserner
Well-known member
Relationally, meaning not that either one changes ontology (what they are), but rather how they relate (attitudes towards each other).
If your son gets mad at you and leaves your house shouting "I hate you," did that disrupt the genetic connection you have?
Is either one of you no longer human now?
Something was "disrupted" on the Cross, and what was disrupted was the relationship, not the essence/nature/substance/being/ontos.
It doesn't make God not God. It doesn't make the Son no longer have a connection to the Father.
These things are non sequiturs.
Johann
Well-known member
Glad to hear-how do you know you are part of the "elect" and do you have assurance of your eternal destination?
Guess no need to preach to the "un-elect" since they are damned and hated by God-correct?
And yet-when I read the Scriptures it goes contrary to what Calvin is saying-for the "un-elect" there is no hope, no future, just awaiting final damnation.
That's not what the Bible is saying-in the 13 Pauline epistles. Rightly dividing.
Clay
Active member
Maybe this will give you some clarification.
How can I know if I am one of the elect? | GotQuestions.org
How can I know if I am one of the elect? Is it possible to want to be saved, but be unable, due to not being one of the elect?
www.gotquestions.org
Johann
Well-known member
The idea of a person wanting to be saved but being unable to, due to not being one of the elect, is absolutely foreign to the Bible.Maybe this will give you some clarification.
How can I know if I am one of the elect? | GotQuestions.org
How can I know if I am one of the elect? Is it possible to want to be saved, but be unable, due to not being one of the elect?www.gotquestions.org
No one seeks after God’s plan of salvation on his own accord (Romans 3:10-18). Those without Christ are blind to their need for salvation (2 Corinthians 4:4). This only changes when God begins drawing a person to Himself. It is God who opens eyes and enlightens minds to the need for Jesus Christ as Savior. A person cannot repent (change the mind about sin and the need for salvation) unless God grants repentance (Acts 11:18). Therefore, if you understand God’s plan of salvation, recognize your need for it, and receive Jesus Christ as your Savior by faith, you are saved.
I didn't understand nothing re God's plan of salvation but recognized my need for a Savior-Jesus Christ and was born again when I was still a young lad.
Well-this must be a mild Calvinist since Got Questions is Calvinistic-you are aware of this @Clay?
Johann
Well-known member
Correct-no need for us to pry into the hidden mysteries of God. It stands written, I believe it.
Richard
Active member
Okay something was disrupted. What I don't see is how the relationship could be disrupted when Jesus was being obedient even to the cross. Philippians 2:8
I just don't see the relationship between the Father and the Son being disrupted. The only time I can think of Jesus having a hissy fit was at the Money Exchangers when he told them they had changed his father's house into a den of Thieves.
As Jesus said: “Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.” [John 5:19.] He came into this life to do the will of his Father, and not his own will.
How could doing the will of the Father disrupt the relationship?
Diserner
Well-known member
Because it is the cost of how evil your sin is. That's the price. Either you pay it or Jesus pays it. Jesus stands in your place, he takes your place, by union.
Jesus did not have a "hissy fit." This is extremely disrespectful. One should not call "righteous indignation" something petulant and arbitrary, it is irreverent.
What happens is, people build their own standard of sin that makes them feel good, and so lessen judgment and decrease the standard of perfection.
Clay
Active member
Not So.
Got Questions Ministries is comprised of dedicated and trained servants who have a desire to assist others in their understanding of God, Scripture, salvation, and other spiritual topics. We are Christian, Protestant, evangelical, theologically conservative, and non-denominational. We are a para-church ministry, coming alongside the church to help people find answers to their spiritually related questions.
About GotQuestions.org
What is GotQuestions.org all about? What is the mission, purpose, and goal of Got Questions Ministries?
www.gotquestions.org
Clay
Active member
Don't have a hissy fit over it
It might have looked like a hissy fit to the money exchangers.
Johann
Well-known member
Something you might want to consider-
THE ELECTION OF GOD
A CHOSEN PURPOSE
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all
men,”
- Titus 2:11
1. God’s Two-Fold Purpose
a. God has a two-fold purpose which includes Israel and the Body of Christ
b. It was purposed before the world began - Titus 1:2; 1 Cor 2:7; 2 Tim 1:9
c. The cross is central to God’s purpose - Heb 9:15-17; Rom 4:22-25
i. Whosoever believe on the Son - John 6:40; 8:24
ii. After we believed - Eph 1:13 – faith comes by hearing – Rom 10:17
iii. The mystery of his will – Eph 1:9-10
2. The Election of God is a Purpose
a. Election means choice – God’s purpose was before the world, not you. 2 Tim
1:9
b. The purpose of God according to election - Rom 9:6-15 His prophetic
purpose
c. We preach Christ crucified: the chosen = those in Christ - 1 Cor 1:23-28
d. Called according to his purpose – Romans 8:28
e. According to the purpose – Eph 1:11-12
3. The Elect of God
a. Israel – Isaiah 45:4, 65:9 (God’s servants Lev 25:55) Matt 24:22-24;
i. It is the scattered strangers of Israel, the “little flock” - 1 Peter 1:2
ii. The Father’s good pleasure to give you… - Luke 12:32 – why? Mat
21:43
b. Christ – Isaiah 42:1 1 Peter 2:6
i. We are chosen in Christ (mentioned 3x) – Eph 1:4-6
ii. What was before the world? Eph 3:9-10; Rom 16:25
c. The Danger of Mixing God’s Purposes
i. Calvin thought the church was Israel – Mat 26:28; Heb 8:8, 9:28
ii. Denying the cross through another gospel – Mark 9:32 & 43, Gal
2:21
4. God’s Purpose Fulfilled in Christ
a. The cross of Christ is the center point of God’s two-fold purpose.
b. Man perishes because he rejects God’s provision.
i. Choose life – Deut 30:19
ii. God desired repentance - Matt 11:20 & Luke 19:41 & Luke 19:41
iii. The priests rejected God’s counsel - Luke 7:39
c. God desires all men saved – 1 Tim 2:4; Titus 2:11; Eze 18:27; 2 Peter 3:9
d. The only time ‘foreordained’ is mentioned it is Christ – 1 Peter 1:19-20
e. God’s purpose fulfilled in Christ – not man. – Eph 3:10-11
f. God is wiser than man, this is how his purpose gets accomplished – Rom
11:33
Search
graceambassadors.com
Johann
Well-known member
Are you affiliated with Got Questions? Since I have a LOT of questions.Not So.
Got Questions Ministries is comprised of dedicated and trained servants who have a desire to assist others in their understanding of God, Scripture, salvation, and other spiritual topics. We are Christian, Protestant, evangelical, theologically conservative, and non-denominational. We are a para-church ministry, coming alongside the church to help people find answers to their spiritually related questions.
About GotQuestions.org
What is GotQuestions.org all about? What is the mission, purpose, and goal of Got Questions Ministries?www.gotquestions.org
Richard
Active member
No big dealDon't have a hissy fit over it
Diserner
Well-known member
Don't have a hissy fit over it
God's "hissy fits":
4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry, And dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither, And the flower of Lebanon wilts.
5 The mountains quake before Him, The hills melt, And the earth heaves at His presence, Yes, the world and all who dwell in it.
6 Who can stand before His indignation? And who can endure the fierceness of His anger?
His fury is poured out like fire, And the rocks are thrown down by Him. (Nah. 1:4-6 NKJ)
10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.
He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,
who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:10-11 NKJ)
