makesends
Well-known member
Repeating yourself doesn't move the conversation forward.
The Elect
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
makesends
Well-known member
Johann said:
There is no contradiction between God's sovereignty and mankind's free will.
I'm still working on him to find out what he really means by "free will". Johann, to you mean actually uncaused choice?
There is no contradiction between God's sovereignty and mankind's free will.
I agree with @Johann here —at least in whatever 'free will' actually IS, and not in whatever constructions we come up with to describe real choice.
I'm still working on him to find out what he really means by "free will". Johann, to you mean actually uncaused choice?
civic
Well-known member
context its the disciples who were drawn and came and the pharisees who were not drawn and could not come. its not about anyone else in the passage.
hope this helps !!!
makesends
Well-known member
The context does. And emphasizes the sovereignty of God (not the actions of men as causal) in choosing some for those particular purposes and virtues (actions) that come through regeneration.
civic
Well-known member
also if you are going to claim the "elect " are those disciples who were drawn by the Father and come and follow Him and are saved then you have another giant pickle.'
So much foe the elect being drawn/kept.
John 6:66
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Jesus drives it home here with the elect/chosen
John 6:70
Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
so much for being chose/elect and saved.
hope this helps !!!
context is King once again. @TomL
So much foe the elect being drawn/kept.
John 6:66
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Jesus drives it home here with the elect/chosen
John 6:70
Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
so much for being chose/elect and saved.
hope this helps !!!
context is King once again. @TomL
Last edited:
Um you have not shown that.
it is believers selected to be holy and blameless and,
not unconditionally select men to be believers.
denying scripture does not either
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Oh, I believe we have free will (with limitations by inclination), but when it comes to salvation, it's all God.
Johann
Well-known member
Is that all you can give me?
Come To Jesus
Matthew 11:28 ESV /
Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Revelation 22:17 ESV /
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
Matthew 11:28-30 ESV /
Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
Romans 10:13 ESV /
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
John 14:6 ESV /
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 6:44 ESV /
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:37 ESV /
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 5:40 ESV /
Yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
John 3:36 ESV / 561 helpful votes
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 1:12 ESV /
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
2 Peter 3:9 ESV /
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Luke 19:10 ESV /
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
Isaiah 55:1-13 ESV /
“Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread, and your labor for that which does not satisfy? Listen diligently to me, and eat what is good, and delight yourselves in rich food. Incline your ear, and come to me; hear, that your soul may live; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, my steadfast, sure love for David. Behold, I made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander for the peoples. Behold, you shall call a nation that you do not know, and a nation that did not know you shall run to you, because of the Lord your God, and of the Holy One of Israel, for he has glorified you. ...
John 7:37 ESV /
On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink.
Ephesians 1:4 ESV / 449 helpful votes
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
John 3:16 ESV /
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 18:36 ESV / 416 helpful votes
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
John 14:14 ESV / 415 helpful votes
If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
John 3:17 ESV / 410 helpful votes
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Mark 10:45 ESV / 366 helpful votes
For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Philippians 1:6 ESV / 363 helpful votes
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
John 14:2 ESV / 359 helpful votes
In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
1 Peter 3:3 ESV / 356 helpful votes
Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear—
Romans 3:23 ESV / 349 helpful votes
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Matthew 5:17 ESV / 342 helpful votes
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
John 15:26 ESV / 337 helpful votes
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.
Matthew 4:3 ESV / 336 helpful votes
And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.”
Matthew 19:14 ESV / 331 helpful votes
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”
2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV / 327 helpful votes
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Revelation 22:20 ESV / 324 helpful votes
He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
1 Timothy 1:15 ESV / 315 helpful votes
The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
John 3:16-17 ESV / 315 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joel 2:32 ESV / 311 helpful votes
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.
Matthew 4:17 ESV / 309 helpful votes
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Revelation 3:20 ESV / 307 helpful votes
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
Luke 5:32 ESV / 307 helpful votes
I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”
Mark 8:2 ESV / 303 helpful votes
“I have compassion on the crowd, because they have been with me now three days and have nothing to eat.
Colossians 2:16-17 ESV / 300 helpful votes
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Acts 19:4 ESV / 299 helpful votes
And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”
Acts 1:10-11 ESV / 295 helpful votes
And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
John 14:1-18:40 ESV / 294 helpful votes
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” ...
John 10:10 ESV / 294 helpful votes
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
Mark 8:34 ESV / 294 helpful votes
And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
John 10:1-19:42 ESV / 293 helpful votes
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” ...
John 5:1-20:31 ESV / 292 helpful votes
After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic called Bethesda, which has five roofed colonnades. In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed. One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” ...
1 John 3:8 ESV / 290 helpful votes
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
Matthew 28:5-6 ESV / 287 helpful votes
But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here, for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay.
James 4:8 ESV / 286 helpful votes
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Luke 5:2 ESV / 286 helpful votes
And he saw two boats by the lake, but the fishermen had gone out of them and were washing their nets.
Hebrews 12:1 ESV / 284 helpful votes
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Isaiah 1:18 ESV / 283 helpful votes
“Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.
Romans 12:1-2 ESV / 279 helpful votes
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Revelation 1:8 ESV / 278 helpful votes
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Matthew 28:2 ESV / 276 helpful votes
And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it.
Hebrews 2:9 ESV / 269 helpful votes
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Romans 6:23 ESV / 269 helpful votes
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 1:14 ESV / 269 helpful votes
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Luke 1:35 ESV / 260 helpful votes
And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 254 helpful votes
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Matthew 4:1-19:30 ESV / 252 helpful votes
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple ...
Matthew 20:1-28:20 ESV / 251 helpful votes
“For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. ...
Matthew 19:21-22 ESV / 250 helpful votes
Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
John 5:24 ESV / 248 helpful votes
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Mark 10:2 ESV / 240 helpful votes
And Pharisees came up and in order to test him asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”
Galatians 2:20 ESV / 235 helpful votes
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
John 15:13 ESV / 232 helpful votes
Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:4 ESV / 231 helpful votes
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Romans 5:8 ESV / 230 helpful votes
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
John 12:32 ESV / 229 helpful votes
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
1 John 4:14 ESV / 226 helpful votes
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
Galatians 2:21 ESV / 226 helpful votes
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Acts 2:38 ESV / 223 helpful votes
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
1 John 2:2 ESV / 222 helpful votes
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 8:12 ESV / 222 helpful votes
Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
Isaiah 9:6 ESV / 222 helpful votes
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Hebrews 13:8 ESV / 218 helpful votes
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Matthew 10:34 ESV / 215 helpful votes
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Hebrews 12:2 ESV / 214 helpful votes
Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV / 214 helpful votes
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
1 John 1:9 ESV / 211 helpful votes
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Matthew 5:2 ESV / 210 helpful votes
And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:
John 14:3 ESV / 206 helpful votes
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
Galatians 3:13 ESV / 202 helpful votes
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
John 17:3 ESV / 200 helpful votes
And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
Matthew 11:30 ESV / 198 helpful votes
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
1 Corinthians 5:1-16:24 ESV / 196 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. ...
I guess you are familiar with the Subjunctives and Imperatives?
Shalom
J.
Johann
Well-known member
All I ask is that you listen to this teaching from Utley-then we can discuss.
Interpreting Difficult and Controversial Biblical Texts
Difficult and controversial Bible passages explained by Dr. Bob Utley. Presented in MP3 audio.
www.freebiblecommentary.org
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
None of those "come to me" verses prove that we have the ability in ourselves to come to Jesus. Even a command does not prove that we have the ability to obey it of our own free will. Indeed, Deuteronomy tells a story about how God says, "I set before you a choice of blessing or a curse". And then the story continues saying, "you're going to disobey and I will curse you". Fortunately, the ultimate outcome is that God will write his laws on our hearts. Once again, it's all up to God, not our free will.
civic
Well-known member
When you ask your dog to come to you it’s by force ?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
When you ask your dog to come to you it’s by force ?
I have to give you credit here. You're an expert at bad analogies.
civic
Well-known member
Ok when you ask your child to come to the dinner table and eat , is that better
Johann
Well-known member
Yup-the wailing emojis is getting a bit tiresome
101G
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
not as tiresome as the cut n pastes from secondary sources.
civic
Well-known member
The RULES are clearly stated on our forum.
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4. Copy and paste of large amounts of text.
4a. Feel free to copy and paste your own writings. But please limit the amount of copy and paste of text from websites and include a link for members to read the rest of the article. What would be ideal would be one paragraph and then the link to the rest of the information. No more than 2 cut and pastes per day, per thread.
4b. Threads started by members or posts are not to be considered as a member's thread or otherwise "owned".
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charismaticlady
Active member
It is too bad the writers of the NIV used the word, "chosen." It disrupts the meaning of "many are called, few are chosen."
