The Doctrine of Imminence

[The Rogue Tomato]

The doctrine of imminence is the notion that Jesus could return at any moment, since we do not know the day or hour of His return. I personally believe this doctrine to be false. IMO, it is a way to prop up "pre-trib" rapture. Setting aside the fact that the Bible never makes any mention of a 7 year tribulation period (there may be a 70th week, but it's never identified as "the tribulation"), The problem is that people have looked at this in only 3 ways:

• Jesus raptures pre-trib
• Jesus raptures mid-trib
• Jesus raptures post-trib

The second and third can't be true, because then we'd have a way to know the day and hour of His return. Therefore, the only choice left is pre-trib.

Consider this, however:

• We are told we will have tribulation
• We are not appointed to wrath

If you differentiate between tribulation and wrath, then the rapture should occur after the Great Tribulation when Jesus returns to pour out His wrath upon the earth. Does this mean that we can know the day or hour of His return? No.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The Great Tribulation is cut short. How short? Nobody knows. Therefore when the Great Tribulation is upon us, no one will know the day or hour of His return. This is commonly known as the pre-wrath rapture.

 

[Diserner]

Jesus could return at any moment
I personally believe this doctrine to be false

31 The heaven and the earth, shall pass away, but, my words, shall not pass away.
32 But, concerning that day or hour, no one, knoweth, neither the messengers in heaven, nor the Son,--save the Father.
33 Be taking heed, be watching, for ye know not, when, the season [[is]]:--
34 As a man from home--having left his house, and given his servants the authority, to each one, his work,--and, unto the porter, hath given command, that he should watch:--
35 Be watching, therefore, for ye know not, when, the master of the house, is coming,--whether at even, or at midnight, or at cock-crowing, or at early morn;--
36 Lest, coming suddenly, he find you, sleeping.
37 But, what, unto you, I say, unto all, I say:--Be watching. (Mk. 13:31-37 ROT)

 

[civic]

The Tribulation is divided into 3 parts. The first 3 1/2 years are peace and the second 3 1/2 years are wrath. So anywhere before the 2nd 3 1/3 years or the 7 year beginning is where the rapture would occur if one is a pre or mid trib.

The shortened days are for National Israel not the church.

 

[civic]

The doctrine of imminence is the notion that Jesus could return at any moment, since we do not know the day or hour of His return. I personally believe this doctrine to be false. IMO, it is a way to prop up "pre-trib" rapture. Setting aside the fact that the Bible never makes any mention of a 7 year tribulation period (there may be a 70th week, but it's never identified as "the tribulation"), The problem is that people have looked at this in only 3 ways:

• Jesus raptures pre-trib
• Jesus raptures mid-trib
• Jesus raptures post-trib

The second and third can't be true, because then we'd have a way to know the day and hour of His return. Therefore, the only choice left is pre-trib.

Consider this, however:

• We are told we will have tribulation
• We are not appointed to wrath

If you differentiate between tribulation and wrath, then the rapture should occur after the Great Tribulation when Jesus returns to pour out His wrath upon the earth. Does this mean that we can know the day or hour of His return? No.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The Great Tribulation is cut short. How short? Nobody knows. Therefore when the Great Tribulation is upon us, no one will know the day or hour of His return. This is commonly known as the pre-wrath rapture.

How do you deal with many of Jesus parables about being ready for He will come when you least expect Him. Thanks !

Doesn't that imply " imminence " ?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

How do you deal with many of Jesus parables about being ready for He will come when you least expect Him. Thanks !

Doesn't that imply " imminence " ?

Not to me, it doesn't. I don't know how the great tribulation will affect us outside of Israel, but if it does affect us, I suspect it will test our faith greatly. That will be a time of patience and faith, making ready for His coming.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The doctrine of imminence is the notion that Jesus could return at any moment, since we do not know the day or hour of His return.

"Doctrines" are nothing but "Theology". ALL God's Chilluns gots "Theologies".

And Anyway, I've got a book that PROVES BIBLICALLY, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the rapture will DEFINITELY TAKE PLACE during the "Feast of Trumpets" in 1988!!!

I can hardly wait!!!

 

[civic]

"Doctrines" are nothing but "Theology". ALL God's Chilluns gots "Theologies".

And Anyway, I've got a book that PROVES BIBLICALLY, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the rapture will DEFINITELY TAKE PLACE during the "Feast of Trumpets" in 1988!!!

I can hardly wait!!!

my mother in law use to go to his church in Alameda, Ca. I grew up about 15 miles from there and use to listen to his " open forum" radio program on every night at 7 pm.

 

[Rockson]

The doctrine of imminence is the notion that Jesus could return at any moment, since we do not know the day or hour of His return. I personally believe this doctrine to be false. IMO, it is a way to prop up "pre-trib" rapture. Setting aside the fact that the Bible never makes any mention of a 7 year tribulation period (there may be a 70th week, but it's never identified as "the tribulation"), The problem is that people have looked at this in only 3 ways:

• Jesus raptures pre-trib
• Jesus raptures mid-trib
• Jesus raptures post-trib

Excuse me, excuse me! Can you slip in Pre-Wrath between mid trib and pre-trib? Thanks if you would.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Excuse me, excuse me! Can you slip in Pre-Wrath between mid trib and pre-trib? Thanks if you would.

It doesn't go there. The great tribulation comes first, then Jesus returns, gathers His elect, and pours out His wrath.

This is when the wrath comes:

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

When does this happen?

Matthew 24:29 “IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And then what happens?

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[civic]

It doesn't go there. The great tribulation comes first, then Jesus returns, gathers His elect, and pours out His wrath.

This is when the wrath comes:

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

When does this happen?

Matthew 24:29 “IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And then what happens?

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect could be the Jews/Israel and not the church. After-all Jesus is addressing the Jews in Matthew 24 and answering their question about His Return. The Great Tribulation is the time of Jacobs ( Israel's ) Trouble. Its to bring the Jews to Christ at His Return as all the nations have waged war against Israel and Christ comes back and they will recognize Him whom they ( the Jews ) have pierced- Zechariah 12.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The elect could be the Jews/Israel and not the church. After-all Jesus is addressing the Jews in Matthew 24 and answering their question about His Return. The Great Tribulation is the time of Jacobs ( Israel's ) Trouble. Its to bring the Jews to Christ at His Return as all the nations have waged war against Israel and Christ comes back and they will recognize Him whom they ( the Jews ) have pierced- Zechariah 12.

The Great Tribulation may be the time of Jacob's Trouble, but immediately after Jesus comes to pour out his wrath, he seals 144,000 of the tribes of Israel to protect them during the wrath.

Rev 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

Meanwhile, after or simultaneously with that, who should appear? A miniature sleigh, and eight tiny reindeer, oh, wait, wrong story.

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, [i.e., not just Israel] standing before the throne and before the Lamb. ... “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” ... "“These are they who have come out of the great tribulation"

Those are us, if we're here to experience the Great Tribulation and survive.

And then, keep reading, the wrath comes.

 

[Rockson]

Consider this, however:

• We are told we will have tribulation
• We are not appointed to wrath

I could be wrong about what I think about the rapture. I've always been open to change what I think about it but I consider the truth of it to be Pre-Wrath. Years ago around 78 I did a lot of study on this. I remember telling friends I think I've got it. They asked, "Well, PreTrib or PostTrib.

I said neither. Wasn't for a few years later I saw others writing books on it. I just said well it's before the Wrath of God with the rapture taking place in the first few verses of chapter 7 and the right before wrath, the tribulation taking place from Rev 6 to the end of the chapter. More can be said but one interesting thing I went to the Greek and looked up Wrath and Tribulation. I found they were two separate Greek words.

thlipsis: tribulation
Original Word: θλῖψις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: thlipsis
Phonetic Spelling: (thlip'-sis)
Definition: tribulation
Usage: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation.

The word for wrath is,
orgé: impulse, wrath
Original Word: ὀργή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: orgé
Phonetic Spelling: (or-gay')
Definition: impulse, wrath
Usage: anger, wrath, passion; punishment, vengeance.

So here's the thing. We have heard something over and over and over.....and it gets so engrained in us it becomes almost impossible to modify our belief. One has heard repeatedly, "The Great Tribulation Period 7 years long" You hear that over and over but did the Bible state great tribulation Mt 24 was 7 years long? I get it I know it comes from the 70th week thing but still who get's to decide you call that 70th week tribulation? And we've got accustomed to calling it The Great Tribulation, as in THEE great tribulation. Jesus just said there will be a time of great tribulation or great persecution. Not wrath....persecution.

So tribulation and wrath are not it seems that same thing. Tribulation is persecution which Jesus never said we'd escape. But persecution doesn't come from God. It comes from the devil. It couldn't come from God for a Kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. Point. Tribulation you can see from Rev 6 to the end of the chapter. Wrath starts at Rev 7: 1 or gets about to start. It even states this....don't release it yet God says to the angels until the 144,000 are sealed.

Wrath is the anger, passion, vengeance of God. Tribulation is persecution against God's people. (more could be said)

 

[Rockson]

It doesn't go there. The great tribulation comes first, then Jesus returns, gathers His elect, and pours out His wrath.

I think we're basically on the same page although I don't know what you think of the vials and trumpets....(another subject) But yes great persecution (tribulation) first. Rev 6:1-9, especially 9....it even says what it is.....perseuction against God's people. That's the 5th seal.

This is when the wrath comes:

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

But hold it now. (I'll stress again I think we're still on the same basic page) But Rev 6 :12 still isn't technically the WRATH of God. Yes you're seeing a great earthquake and the sun and moon turning red/black....(lines up with Mt 24 too) BUT...the wrath is not outpoured yet. So what is this cosmic sign and wonder for. Here's what it's for.

It's God's last mercy to shake thing up and scare the wits out of many of the earth's popultion......to them it's like they'll wonder My Gosh is the universe falling apart. And they'll be calling out to God fearing people, "What do we do what do we do!!!" The body of Christ will boldy tell them....OK, here's what you do! You call upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved!

This is spoken of in Acts 2:20,21 the sun moon darkness and the body of Christ saying, Now call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved!"

It seems to me God is saying to those who persecuted his body (what's called tribulation) OK that's the last straw. Now you're going to get it. Even the martyrs in Rev 6:12 were asking when God was going to avenge them. BUT... one last thing of mercy ....jar many into believing the world is falling apart thus the sign of the blood moon and dark sun.

This is why I think the tetrad moon teaching of eclipses misses the whole magnitude of what God is doing with this sign. This thing is going to shake people up becoming scared, and out of fear many, some or a few more will come to God.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

So they've come to the place where they believe they're on the brink. Notice however they say it has come....not did come.....they believe wrath is coming due to the sun/moon/ falling star signs.....and Rev 7 says it is then getting ready to be outpoured. That's even what the text says in Rev 7: 2

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. Rev 7:2

 

[Rockson]

Another thought I'd like to share.
The Seals....none of them are the Wrath of God All the Seals do are reveal things. They give you pictures of what is going on.
The Wrath is the vials and trumpets.

 

[DavP]

Here is my understanding on these things per Bible Scripture.

In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Lord Jesus showed His coming is AFTER... the tribulation, and He is giving the same order and events of His coming and gathering of His faithful Church that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4. BOTH... examples by Christ and Paul point to the 'last day' when that happens.

In Matthew 24:31, Jesus covers the gathering of the 'asleep' saints He brings with Him from Heaven. Note they are gathered from... Heaven. That aligns with 1 Thess.4:14 & 16.

In the Mark 13:27 example, the saints are being gathered from... the earth. That aligns with 1 Thess.4:17, and is what many call the 'rapture' (though the KJV uses the phrase "caught up", which I prefer, since men's doctrines have so confused that event with their misuse of the word 'rapture', which actually is a word that does not appear in our English Bibles.)

That dual alignment also reveals that Apostle Paul actually got those events of 1 Thess.4 from Lord Jesus. The way we know that Paul was teaching that same gathering time is on the last day is because he says those still alive shall in no way 'precede' the saints that are still alive (KJV "prevent", but means precede per the Greek). And those asleep saints Jesus brings with Him are to be resurrected first. The future resurrection only happens on the last day of this present world when Jesus comes (John 6:40). Thus Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 was pointing to the 'last day' when that happens.

What this means then, is that men's doctrines of a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture do not align with God's Word which God's Word instead teaches Jesus comes after the great tribulation, on the last day of this world, to gather both the dead saints that will be resurrected on that day, and His elect saints still alive on earth.

Although Apostle Paul does not go into detail of where Lord Jesus' is going, when coming in the clouds and gathering His elect, the Zechariah 14 Scripture does tell us, and it is to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, on earth, with His feet touching down there with bringing all His saints with Him, and a great valley is formed there, and He begins His future "thousand years" reign over all nations there.

Thus I also believe the actual time of His Wrath poured out on earth is when the nations see Him coming in the clouds, as it will involve the surprise of God's consuming fire "sudden destruction" upon the whole earth on that day, which Apostle Peter revealed happens on that same "day of the Lord" ( per 2 Peter 3:10-12).

 

[DavP]

Another thought I'd like to share.
The Seals....none of them are the Wrath of God All the Seals do are reveal things. They give you pictures of what is going on.
The Wrath is the vials and trumpets.

The 7 SIGNS of the end that Lord Jesus gave us in His Olivet discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13 directly parallel the Seals of Rev.6.

One might find this hard to believe because of how the SIGNS in Christ's Book of Revelation is laid out, but all the signs in Revelation are simply details of the 7 main SIGNS Jesus gave leading up to His coming per His discourse upon the Mount of Olives.

This is why we see the time of God's cup of Wrath being mentioned on the 6th Seal, and on the 7th Trumpet, and on the 7th Vial...

6th SEAL:
Rev 6:16-17
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

7th Trumpet:
Rev 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV

7th Vial:
Rev 16:19
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
KJV

I believe the 7th SEAL serves as a 'pause' like the "selah" of the Psalms. A selah represents a musical pause because the Psalms are actually songs that were sung. And selah means to ponder on what was said in the Psalms.

Apply that idea to the silence of half an hour on the 7th SEAL, and it represents a pause to ponder back on the previous 6 Seals information that was opened up to us by Christ.

 

[Rockson]

The 7 SIGNS of the end that Lord Jesus gave us in His Olivet discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13 directly parallel the Seals of Rev.6.

I agree. Many have looked for the rapture in Revelation. I believe I found it....could be mistaken. I think of it like looking for an old sunken ship on the ocean floor. You come across something which looks like it and you look for positive identifcation. You have to clear off debris off a deck of ship to make identificaiton. The debris in this context would be wrong ideas of just why this couldn't be the rapture. . When one sees things which should be so startlingly obvious it should lead one to believe yes it does seem like this is it. Just like you say.....Mark 12, Matt 24 and Rev 6 line up the same.

Matt 24 talks about a great persecution , tribulation.....Rev 6, the 5th seals has that in it.....next Sun turns to darkness, moon like blood......Rev 6/Matt 24 say the same.......then the Son of Man returns....found in Mt 24 and Rev 6 says hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne.....do they actually see Jesus Christ here coming in the clouds? Is the rapture not so secret after all? I was reading this one day....I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.” Mk 14:62

Jesus will be sitting when he comes in clouds? I'd never heard anyone say that. And interesting we see that implied in Rev 6: 16 Hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne! Just figurative language? I don't know. Maybe not.

Apply that idea to the silence of half an hour on the 7th SEAL, and it represents a pause to ponder back on the previous 6 Seals information that was opened up to us by Christ.

There is no 7th Seal though. Only 6.

 

[civic]

Good discussion going on guys

 

[e v e]

His souls have no judgment pending
for they are His
and on that Day go Home

but the wolves attacking His flock, yes
they will receive judgment

 

[DavP]

I agree. Many have looked for the rapture in Revelation. I believe I found it....could be mistaken. I think of it like looking for an old sunken ship on the ocean floor. You come across something which looks like it and you look for positive identifcation. You have to clear off debris off a deck of ship to make identificaiton. The debris in this context would be wrong ideas of just why this couldn't be the rapture. . When one sees things which should be so startlingly obvious it should lead one to believe yes it does seem like this is it. Just like you say.....Mark 12, Matt 24 and Rev 6 line up the same.

Matt 24 talks about a great persecution , tribulation.....Rev 6, the 5th seals has that in it.....next Sun turns to darkness, moon like blood......Rev 6/Matt 24 say the same.......then the Son of Man returns....found in Mt 24 and Rev 6 says hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne.....do they actually see Jesus Christ here coming in the clouds? Is the rapture not so secret after all? I was reading this one day....I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.” Mk 14:62

Jesus will be sitting when he comes in clouds? I'd never heard anyone say that. And interesting we see that implied in Rev 6: 16 Hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne! Just figurative language? I don't know. Maybe not.

There is no 7th Seal though. Only 6.

Close.

Per Rev.19 Lord Jesus comes riding a white horse. I interpret that Rev.6:16 idea, "... the face of Him That sits upon the throne" as being The Father. That event when those will wish to hide is about the last day of this world when Jesus comes in the clouds, and as per Rev.1 every eye shall see Him. How will all eyes see Him coming in the clouds?

On a deeper note, that is about the heavens being rolled up like a scroll, which is an expression for the end of this present 2nd world earth age. God's Wrath there is to involve the "consuming fire" Peter pointed on that last day, the "day of the Lord" (2 Peter 3:10).

Those alive on earth will changed to the "spiritual body" along with that "consuming fire" event. It won't affect us who are still alive on earth, but for the wicked, as shown in Zechariah 14, that consuming fire event will melt their eyes in their sockets, etc., pretty graphic. The Daniel 3 example of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego cast into the hot fiery furnace heated 7 times hotter than necessary, and were not harmed by it because Jesus was with them in it, as that is our example in Christ Jesus on that day, if we are still here alive on earth. Like Apostle Paul taught, on that last day, on the "last trump", we will be 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye" to our "spiritual body". The heavenly dimension is coming here, to earth.

Per Revelation, the working of Satan is on 666 (1st part of the 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe, and 6th Vial)

Christ Jesus comes on 777 (end of 6th Seal into the 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, 7th Vial which is poured into the "air" ending this present world)