The Doctrine of Free Will

Aeliana said:
The problem is when people fall for the lie and have it stuck in their minds they give tunnel vision and that's all they see. No matter what you say, what scripture you post, how good of a theologian you are, what logic you use, they're not going to consider any of it.

I find it amazing the Civic was able to leave Calvinism behind especially after all the years he was a Calvinist. I've only met a few people that have been fortunate enough to do that.

One thing I've learned is that if you have a good understanding of Calvinism and try to explain it to your everyday run of the mill Christian they have a hard time understanding how anybody could fall for that.

I have a hard time understanding how anyone as sharp as RC Sproul or John MacArthur, John Piper could fall for Calvinism.
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@civic and I had a discussion about that today. I'm curious from a psychological point of view how even intelligent people, as you say, can fall for Calvinism. Civic and I think that they are projecting their understanding of reality (from their life experiences) unto their version of God. For example, if they grew up in an environment of severe insecurity then they will thirst for a God that controls everything. If they want to hang on to their thirst for vengeance, because of what happened to them in their lives, then they will follow a god that demands retribution like PSA. If they lost respect for any human intelligence (other than fellow Calvinists) then they will follow a god that belittles everyone that doesn't think like them. That way they feel justified in launching all their insulting ad hom comments at any time of their choosing.

It's very much like what the ancient Greeks did with their pagan gods when they formed their gods based on what they saw around them: jealousy, power struggles, infidelity, etc... The Greeks were not as insecure nor as vengeful as Calvinists. They were more into power struggles and soap opera relationships.
 
synergy said:
I already justified how your statement and 2 Peter 3:9 can lead people to believe that you're a Universalist. In what way am I bearing false witness in saying that? Again, the floor is yours to prove your point. You are not Royalty where you are exempt from having to justify what you claim.
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How can someone believe that Im a universalist when I have witnessed to limited atonement, that Christ died only for the elect ? And you know it as well, that was just a false misrepresentation to win a argument and you know it, and Im not taking it back. Prov 25 is for you
 
brightfame52 said:
False, thats works, salvation based on what a man does. For believing is an act, a action. Here is the definition of a work. ergon:

  1. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

  3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
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No, it's what God does. He saves believers. He likes saving believers, even the angels like it when He saves believers. I guess you don't like it that He should save believers. You'd rather he save unbelievers?
 
sawdust said:
No, it's what God does. He saves believers. He likes saving believers, even the angels like it when He saves believers. I guess you don't like it that He should save believers. You'd rather he save unbelievers?
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God saves unbelievers , believers are already saved. :)
 
Aeliana said:
But seriously after salvation Calvinists do have free will right? Seems like I read that in this thread.
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Who knows! It's a strange logic in my book. On one hand they say they are responsible (response able) to God, on the other it's only God's will that gets done. The Calvinist God is psychotic as far as I am concerned.
 
Aeliana said:
But seriously after salvation Calvinists do have free will right? Seems like I read that in this thread.
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To teach men have a freewill is blasphemy and heresy, God is absolutely Sovereign over mans will, even the most powerful of men, like kings, rulers Prov 21:1

The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
That word heart means:
nner man, mind, will, heart, understanding

  1. inner part, midst
    1. midst (of things)
    2. heart (of man)
    3. soul, heart (of man)
    4. mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
    5. inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
 
civic said:
God saves unbelievers , believers are already saved. :)
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That depends on how you define an unbeliever. Are those who are being drawn to Christ unbelievers?

Jn.6::45 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.

I am of the opinion there are unbelievers, those who reject anything of God from start to finish eg (Rom.1 type) and then there are those who are believers (like Paul), it's just a matter of when that is revealed in their lifetime.
 
brightfame52 said:
So God believes for a person ?
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No, you do your own believing or unbelieving. God doesn't do for you what He tells you to do. He does supply the needed power (grace) so that when He presents the truth you can make the choice for yourself without coercion or manipulation from any and all sources including ones own sinful bent.
 
brightfame52 said:
How can someone believe that Im a universalist when I have witnessed to limited atonement, that Christ died only for the elect ? And you know it as well, that was just a false misrepresentation to win a argument and you know it, and Im not taking it back. Prov 25 is for you
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I asked you about your "God is Sovereign over all wills!" statement and 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish" and not about your life story. I have no idea about your life story nor do I keep tabs on your life story. So again, in what way am I incorrect in thinking you are a Universalist based on your statement and 2 Peter 3:9 which I presume you believe?
 
People Are Saved because Christ Died and Rose to Save Them. People are not saved by believing just anything; according to Scripture, saving faith has specific content. It is faith in one particular person—in him who said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

No one comes to the Father except through me”. John 14:6

Peter speaks plain words: “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved”. Acts 4:12

Saving faith is faith that Jesus died and was raised to save sinners, as Paul says when he summarizes the gospel: “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures”. 1 Cor. 15:3–4

Free will is how people believe that Jesus died and rose to save them.
 
civic said:
Apologist John Lennox explains free will.
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Let's look at Free Will from a Christological point of view but before that let's start with Jesus' declaration of freedom that awaits all believers:

John 8:36 Therefore if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

So since each and everyone of us are composed of mind, heart, and will then all of those components will be set free by the Son of God.

But free in what sense and how does that fit in with the fact that Christ has both a human will and a divine will? In John 6:38, Christ exhibits what it truly means to possess a human free will through the many times he synergistically aligned his human will with his divine will. In similar fashion, we need to align our will to God's will, through God's Grace of course, for us to truly possess the Free Will to do good.

John 6:38 For I came down from Heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me.
 
synergy said:
Let's look at Free Will from a Christological point of view but before that let's start with Jesus' declaration of freedom that awaits all believers:

John 8:36 Therefore if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

So since each and everyone of us are composed of mind, heart, and will then all of those components will be set free by the Son of God.

But free in what sense and how does that fit in with the fact that Christ has both a human will and a divine will? In John 6:38, Christ exhibits what it truly means to possess a human free will through the many times he synergistically aligned his human will with his divine will. In similar fashion, we need to align our will to God's will, through God's Grace of course, for us to truly possess the Free Will to do good.

John 6:38 For I came down from Heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me.
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Amen
 
Azriel said:
People Are Saved because Christ Died and Rose to Save Them. People are not saved by believing just anything; according to Scripture, saving faith has specific content. It is faith in one particular person—in him who said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

No one comes to the Father except through me”. John 14:6

Peter speaks plain words: “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved”. Acts 4:12

Saving faith is faith that Jesus died and was raised to save sinners, as Paul says when he summarizes the gospel: “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures”. 1 Cor. 15:3–4

Free will is how people believe that Jesus died and rose to save them.
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You don't choose to believe anything of your own free will. Try it. The notion that God came to earth as a man born of a virgin, performed miracles, was crucified, and still being God for some reason cried out "my God my God why have you forsaken me?", then was resurrected with holes in his body, and appearing disguised as another person so that he wasn't recognized until later. All of that is completely absurd to any sane human in the flesh.

You believe that now because you're a Christian. Your belief in that absurd story is a result of what God did in you, not your free will.

But pick anything as absurd as the reality of Jesus to our human understanding and decide of your own free will to believe it. Decide of your own free will that Choktar from the planet Xanax is coming to teach you how to fly. Decide of your own free will to believe in Scientology.

Do you think Scientologists just decided of their own free will to believe that horse hockey? Or perhaps a supernatural outside force had something to do with it?

Try it, and let me know how it turns out.
 
Let me add that when I was first saved, most of my friends thought I had lost my mind, that I had gone crazy. And that makes perfect sense. They were unable to believe, not un-free-willing to believe.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
You don't choose to believe anything of your own free will. Try it. The notion that God came to earth as a man born of a virgin, performed miracles, was crucified, and still being God for some reason cried out "my God my God why have you forsaken me?", then was resurrected with holes in his body, and appearing disguised as another person so that he wasn't recognized until later. All of that is completely absurd to any sane human in the flesh.

You believe that now because you're a Christian. Your belief in that absurd story is a result of what God did in you, not your free will.

But pick anything as absurd as the reality of Jesus to our human understanding and decide of your own free will to believe it. Decide of your own free will that Choktar from the planet Xanax is coming to teach you how to fly. Decide of your own free will to believe in Scientology.

Do you think Scientologists just decided of their own free will to believe that horse hockey? Or perhaps a supernatural outside force had something to do with it?

Try it, and let me know how it turns out.
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What absurd story are you talking about? I see three different scriptures from the Bible that @Azriel posted.


No you're a post on the other hand is full of absurdities.
 
Wilber said:
What absurd story are you talking about? I see three different scriptures from the Bible that @Azriel posted.


No you're a post on the other hand is full of absurdities.
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Scripture? I read the Bible when I was an atheist. I didn't believe any of it. It was hogwash to me. No "free will" was involved - I didn't CHOOSE not to believe it. I simply didn't believe it.

Neither did I later choose to believe it of my own free will. God changed me.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
Scripture? I read the Bible when I was an atheist. I didn't believe any of it. It was hogwash to me. No "free will" was involved - I didn't CHOOSE not to believe it. I simply didn't believe it.

Neither did I later choose to believe it of my own free will. God changed me.
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calvinists and atheist both reject free will. That is very telling your foundation is the same.
 

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