The Doctrine of Free Will

[Diserner]

However, in all of that, God trumps all. Why? Because He is God the Creator, who owns us, having created us. It is the old "His house, His rules" paradigm that many do not want to accept.

Oh, trust me, I hated the idea of the Arminian God. I fought it every step of the way, I cried, everything in me didn't want it to be true. I would be the last person to want this Arminian God with his free will that seems so arbitrary and cruel.

But I just had to give in eventually, I could not fight the Sovereignty of God.

 

[armylngst]

Oh, trust me, I hated the idea of the Arminian God. I fought it every step of the way, I cried, everything in me didn't want it to be true. I would be the last person to want this Arminian God with his free will that seems so arbitrary and cruel.

But I just had to give in eventually, I could not fight the Sovereignty of God.

Arminians have the same God, and the same Christ. There understanding of soteriology needs help. Just like those who call themselves calvinists, not all can call themselves Christians. There are plenty out there who we would call arminians, who would not call themselves arminians, and thus aren't actually inconsistent in their beliefs. I hate labels, because then everyone places people under labels, and tell them what they believe, and don't listen when they say that they don't actually believe that. Don't fall into that trap.

 

[Diserner]

Don't fall into that trap.

Oh, trust me.

Those who "claim" they used to be Arminians, they never studied the first thing about it, nor understand what it taught.

They just never really truly understood Armianism, they were never truly Arminian.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Those whom think they were predestined of God for salvation, before the foundations of the world were lain, in essence, have no need of a saviour, in their own theology !
For Christ Jesus is the work of God to be the propitiation for our debt of redemption from sin's wages.
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that YE BELIEVE ON HIM whom he hath sent.

God does NOT force, coerce, nor control the actions of faith or the ability to believe in his Son.
John 7:16-17
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man WILL DO his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

1 John 2:2-5 - and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 1:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

“to propitiate” means “to satisfy the wrath of God against sin,” “to turn away God's wrath,” or “to offer a sacrifice that appeases God's just judgment and righteous anger against us and our sin.” And note, Jesus is not simply “the propitiator” but the “propitiation.” He is what satisfies the justice of God.

We have "nothing" in ourselves that can bring us salvation; no amount of works of good deeds nor behaviours can redeem us before God. It took the blood of bulls & goats to only pass the sun debt off the Jews for a year but it took the blood of Jesus,a the lamb without spit nor blemish, without sin to secure us redemption from the wages of sin.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works,lest any man should boast.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

And Deuteronomy says, "You're going to choose to disobey, and I'm going to punish you and scatter you. But eventually I will bring you back and write my laws into your hearts so that you may love the Lord and live."

In other words, a free-will choice leads to damnation. But when God changes you, you inherit eternal life.

 

[armylngst]

Those whom think they were predestined of God for salvation, before the foundations of the world were lain, in essence, have no need of a saviour, in their own theology !
For Christ Jesus is the work of God to be the propitiation for our debt of redemption from sin's wages.
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that YE BELIEVE ON HIM whom he hath sent.

You may want to read Ephesians 1 again. I will use the grammer as seen in various translations. God has foreordained us (us being belivers/the elect) to the adoption of children. You probably stop there. However, the verse doesn't stop there. It says to the adoption of children through Christ to Him. That is important. Through Christ. Having done this, He chose us before the foundation of the world, to live as His children. That is to be blameless and holy. As His children...ACT LIKE IT. BE IT. We were chosen to be different. Not to follow the world. That isn't why we were chosen before the foundation of the world.

God does NOT force, coerce, nor control the actions of faith or the ability to believe in his Son.
John 7:16-17
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man WILL DO his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

That is correct. Calvinists don't believe this either. The circumstances of life will bring about the inevitable conclusion. The regeneration that calvinists hold to, which is the dead spirit (dead by sin) becoming alive and able to understand the spiritual truth of the gospel, results in the transformation (radical) of the mind and understanding. One of these, what has been seen cannot be unseen events. They are forever changed. Have you ever had a deep belief that someone completely destroyed on you simply by showing you the truth, or you heard the truth and it completely changed your view on something. (Like a belief in santa clause, where kids are utterly crushed when parents tell them the truth. (not all kids, this is just showing you the kind of change in understanding being spoken about. Why else was Saul utterly destroyed by Jesus revelation that Paul was actually attacking the one he claimed to be serving?)

1 John 2:2-5 - and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Ah, a universalist. Nice. (Note: That is the only response I can give when someone uses this verse to show the universality of salvation, which is the forgiveness of sin, the cleansing of sin by Jesus' blood.) If you are not a universalist, then by definition you believe in the limitation of the atonement. It doesn't save those who don't believe, right? A better way to look at it is as "specific atonement". It atones those who believe in Him. Just as the sacrifice of atonement in the Old Testament did not atone the world, but only the congregation of Israel, so Jesus sacrifice only atones the congregation of believers: past, present and future.

1 John 1:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

An action on God's part, not ours. And the our John is speaking about is not humanity, but believers, past, present, and future.

“to propitiate” means “to satisfy the wrath of God against sin,” “to turn away God's wrath,” or “to offer a sacrifice that appeases God's just judgment and righteous anger against us and our sin.” And note, Jesus is not simply “the propitiator” but the “propitiation.” He is what satisfies the justice of God.

His selfless sacrifice satisfied the justice of God. The law God gave was a law of death. Jesus fulfilled the law by His death, freeing believers from the penalty of the law, but only believers.

We have "nothing" in ourselves that can bring us salvation; no amount of works of good deeds nor behaviours can redeem us before God. It took the blood of bulls & goats to only pass the sun debt off the Jews for a year but it took the blood of Jesus,a the lamb without spit nor blemish, without sin to secure us redemption from the wages of sin.

Absolutely. I would hope any calvinist would believe that. Why? Because it is God who stands before the universe and states "*name here* stands justified before Me." We cannot justify ourselves. Salvation is monergistic, not synergistic. God is the justifier. If He doesn't want to justify you, it doesn't matter what you say. [I say this to explain to you just who God is, not to say that that is how it is.] We can't tell God He has to spend eternity with us. He chose who He wants to spend eternity with, and according to Ephesians 1, it was "according to the good pleasure of His will." To summarize in paraphrase... He felt like it. No merit. No condition. He just felt like it.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works,lest any man should boast.

Absolutely, but you missed "faith; and that not of yourselves". However, that is a kind of trap. Faith is not what that refers to. That refers to salvation en toto. All of it. All of it is a gift of God and not of ourselves. It is monergistic, not synergistic. I don't go as far as saying faith is a gift of God, because I got it down to faith being a reaction to the word of God. Spontaneous, not a work, but a reaction. Consider the child who is utterly crushed by the realization that Santa Claus doesn't exist. The tears that flow, to me, is like faith being a reaction and not a work. A reaction to the utter radical transformation of our understanding/thoughts. It is still wrapped up in the full package of salvation, but I see it as a reaction to God's work.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Yet we have Deuteronomy 31:
"14 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, [g]the time for you to die is near; call Joshua and present yourselves at the tent of meeting, and I will commission him.” So Moses and Joshua went and presented themselves at the tent of meeting. 15 And the Lord appeared in the tent in a pillar of cloud, and the pillar of cloud stood at the entrance of the tent. 16 The Lord said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to [h]lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the prostitute with the foreign gods of the land into the midst of which they are going, and they will abandon Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. 17 Then My anger will be kindled against them on that day, and I will abandon them and hide My face from them, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will find them; so they will say on that day, ‘Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have found us?’ 18 But I will assuredly hide My face on that day because of all the evil that they will have done, for they will have turned away to other gods."

That is determinate language there. It will happen. God is telling Moses and Joshua that it will happen. Which means that even though God set before them life and death, blessing and cursing, it was already written in stone that they will choose death and cursing, and cannot avoid it.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Not a universalist !
Today is the day of salvation and we must choose to believe in Jesus as our Savior !

Jesus said we are as the grass that withers and the flower that fades away, there will be NO second chances at believing after one dies !

However our choosing of faith is not bc one is chosen by some special reasoning nor predestined of God to be saved rather his word says............

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

We are called by the Spirit in conviction of our sin and predestined to be in his image.
Romans 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Our purpose:
1 Peter 2:9 - But ye are a
chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God created all men to receive glory, honour and praise; to have fellowship with as he did with Adam in the garden.

 

[armylngst]

Not a universalist !
Today is the day of salvation and we must choose to believe in Jesus as our Savior !

Jesus said we are as the grass that withers and the flower that fades away, there will be NO second chances at believing after one dies !

However our choosing of faith is not bc one is chosen by some special reasoning nor predestined of God to be saved rather his word says............

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ah, so you got caught up in the English language as well. It doesn't say that in the original language. It says that those in the action of believing in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Again, it doesn't say whosoever.

AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE

πᾶς (pas)

3956: all, every

a prim. word

As such, it does not rule out predestination, or special reasoning on the part of God. When you downgrade God to the level of human, who can't do whatever He wishes/will, you have problems. Are you saying that God doesn't have the right to choose who will spend eternity with Him, but that we dictate terms?

We are called by the Spirit in conviction of our sin and predestined to be in his image.

And what if the Spirit doesn't call?

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

"26 Now in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with [o]groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the [p]saints according to the will of God."

You can't leave out all the context, and there is still more.

What about those who are not called according to His purpose? Can they thwart His purpose in not calling them?

Our purpose:
1 Peter 2:9 - But ye are a
chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Yes. He called. What if He didn't call? Who says He has to call?

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God created all men to receive glory, honour and praise; to have fellowship with as he did with Adam in the garden.

I thought Paul said that God created many types of pottery, some for honor and some for dishonor? He also asked who we are to think we can talk back at God for however He made us.

 

[TomL]

Yet we have Deuteronomy 31:
"14 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, [g]the time for you to die is near; call Joshua and present yourselves at the tent of meeting, and I will commission him.” So Moses and Joshua went and presented themselves at the tent of meeting. 15 And the Lord appeared in the tent in a pillar of cloud, and the pillar of cloud stood at the entrance of the tent. 16 The Lord said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to [h]lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the prostitute with the foreign gods of the land into the midst of which they are going, and they will abandon Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. 17 Then My anger will be kindled against them on that day, and I will abandon them and hide My face from them, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will find them; so they will say on that day, ‘Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have found us?’ 18 But I will assuredly hide My face on that day because of all the evil that they will have done, for they will have turned away to other gods."

That is determinate language there. It will happen. God is telling Moses and Joshua that it will happen. Which means that even though God set before them life and death, blessing and cursing, it was already written in stone that they will choose death and cursing, and cannot avoid it.

You would have to assume determination rather than foreknowledge. and you would have to assume it against God claims

Ezekiel 18:32 (ESV) — 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”

Ezekiel 33:11 (ESV) — 11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

 

[armylngst]

You would have to assume determination rather than foreknowledge. and you would have to assume it against God claims

Using foreknowledge puts a lot of contradictions into the Bible, when one looks at the whole context. For instance, one says that God used His foreknowledge to look down the halls of history to see who would believe and then saves them. However, Jesus clearly states that man on His own cannot believe. With man it is impossible. So all God would see with that kind of foreknowledge is the damnation of all humanity. No salvation. However, God is the author of life, and, according to Hebrews, the author of salvation. So God is an author. How do books work with characters? Are they robots? No. They all have character. They make choices based on their character. They go their own way. A good author follows the character. The only way a character changes is if the author intercedes and changes the character. The character cannot change himself.

Ezekiel 18:32 (ESV) — 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”

"30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your offenses, so that wrongdoing does not become a stumbling block to you. 31 Hurl away from you all your offenses which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why should you die, house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live!”

Hmm... this isn't a call to an individual. What did God tell Moses about the house of Israel in Deuteronomy? THEY WILL REJECT AND REBEL. Not, that they might. He even had Moses compose a song of all the things God would do to Israel for their rejection. That didn't even stop them. However, He always spoke of reconciliation.

Ezekiel 33:11 (ESV) — 11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

So, if God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, why doesn't God save them all? Is God powerless to do this? Is God thwarted at every turn by evil? God could snap His fingers and all would be saved from death. He doesn't. He only snaps His fingers for some. Look at Paul. He got the VIP treatment. God came to Him personally and saved Him. Why not everyone? If it would be a violation of the rules, didn't He violate the rules with Paul? Or is there something more to what happened, and it is just a visible manifestation of what happens in the heart, soul, and mind of every believer before they are saved? God tells them that they in rebellion with Him, the creator of the universe. And their way of thought, their world view, implodes under the weight of the truth.

 

[TomL]

Using foreknowledge puts a lot of contradictions into the Bible, when one looks at the whole context. For instance, one says that God used His foreknowledge to look down the halls of history to see who would believe and then saves them. However, Jesus clearly states that man on His own cannot believe. With man it is impossible. So all God would see with that kind of foreknowledge is the damnation of all humanity. No salvation. However, God is the author of life, and, according to Hebrews, the author of salvation. So God is an author. How do books work with characters? Are they robots? No. They all have character. They make choices based on their character. They go their own way. A good author follows the character. The only way a character changes is if the author intercedes and changes the character. The character cannot change himself.

Looking down the halls of history is a calvinist false stereotype. And Jesus does not say man is incapable of believing

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?


John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

 

[brightfame52]

Man naturally doesnt have the ability to believe in Christ for Salvation Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So he has no freewill in this regard.

Coming here denotes believing as it shows here Jn 6:35

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

 

[civic]

Man naturally doesnt have the ability to believe in Christ for Salvation Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So he has no freewill in this regard.

Coming here denotes believing as it shows here Jn 6:35

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Sure they do just like they can believe in the tooth fairy if they want to.

 

[brightfame52]

Sure they do just like they can believe in the tooth fairy if they want to.

Man naturally doesnt have the ability to believe in Christ for Salvation Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So he has no freewill in this regard.

 

[civic]

Man naturally doesnt have the ability to believe in Christ for Salvation Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So he has no freewill in this regard.

Coming and believing are not the same you are conflating them

 

[Presby02]

Projecting it’s the fatalist/ determinist who is teaching a false doctrine.

But then again you are only a preprogrammed robot, a puppet on a string all for his good pleasure to burn you up or play with you like a stuffed animal as a child does. No relationship just an imaginary one.

Empty childish rhetoric

 

[brightfame52]

Coming and believing are not the same you are conflating them

Man naturally doesnt have the ability to believe in Christ for Salvation Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So he has no freewill in this regard.

 

[civic]

Man naturally doesnt have the ability to believe in Christ for Salvation Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So he has no freewill in this regard.

Let all who thirst come drink freely

 

[brightfame52]

Let all who thirst come drink freely

No man can come means no ability to come, believe.

 

[brightfame52]

No man can come because all men, by nature, are spiritually dead Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.