. The Christian view that the Mosaic Covenant and Law have been replaced by another covenant.

[praise_yeshua]

No. Yes. No..

So you're an practicing Orthodox Jew? Do you wear Priestly garments?

It seems like you think that God should have just executed all of the Israelites after giving them to the Mosaic Law when in reality God knows how to give gifts to His children that are for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).

Nonsense. God has given Grace to all men. Even those Gentiles you "seem" not to appreciate. You know, those "second class" children?

Someone cursing their parents amounts to wishing that they had never been born, so giving them to death penalty is doing their best to comply with that sentiment.

So you actually practice stoning children that curse their father and mother? Be specific.

 

[Johann]

I applaud your efforts. Thank you for your service to Jesus Christ. I sincerely mean that.

Please don't take this the wrong way.....

However, there is no pleasure to be found in recognition of our service apart from the very voice of God confirming our value to Him. There will come a day when He will speak and all men with stand silent as He alone establishes those who have actually pleased Him. Any person can do good things for all the wrong reasons. Which is what Jesus Christ came to reveal. He came to a group of religiously pious peoples that claimed to please the Father. Yet, they sought to murder our Lord. In fact, Peter used those very words to describe these people. Murders. Murders in their hearts for hating the lovely Son of God. I don't see these things in you. I'm not claiming they are but motives are everything when it comes to God.

We can do so very little to please God. So very little. The littlest of faith pleases God. Too many seek acknowledgement in their service when God desires that we just love Him. Love Him enough to put Him first. Love Him enough to train our own children. Abraham didn't have a single person to praise his works. Not one.

I still insist that when it comes to actually "loving our neighbor as ourselves"..... Only Christ has accomplished this. He did what only He could do. He proved it by actually having the power to actually love us to Himself.

Sure. We can claim to love in such a manner but our love doesn't have any power to TRANSFORM.... in and of itself. Remember James? In same manner, what good is it to say you love someone and yet not have the power to actually help them with what they actually need? God alone saves. We might point someone to Him but it is God, who in love, actually saves mankind. We are powerless to do such.

There are plenty that feed the power and tell others they love them but there are few that actually bow the knee completely to the power of Christ. We are always look for it ourselves. I grew tired of that a long time ago. I started actually changing my doctrine to reflect these truths in what I believe. That is the most I can do.

It would seem you are ignoring Matthew 25 and James-but I am not here to judge you-each one must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling.

For me-Christianity ain't passivism-too many Imperatives recorded in Scriptures.

I happened to be involved in the Underground Church-for God's glory, not to earn merit, like the Muslims do. There is always something we can do.
Give this a listen brother.

Living Faith or Dead Faith

Mike contrasts God-given living faith that produces evidence of a changed life with dead, deceptive faith that is useless.

www.proclaimingthegospel.org

 

[praise_yeshua]

It would seem you are ignoring Matthew 25 and James-but I am not here to judge you-each one must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling.

For me-Christianity ain't passivism-too many Imperatives recorded in Scriptures.

I happened to be involved in the Underground Church-for God's glory, not to earn merit, like the Muslims do. There is always something we can do.
Give this a listen brother.

Living Faith or Dead Faith

Mike contrasts God-given living faith that produces evidence of a changed life with dead, deceptive faith that is useless.

www.proclaimingthegospel.org

Never said it was. I agree with the very real fact that we are to produce good works. My problem is with those seeking to judge other's efforts when those same people don't actually answer to them.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Which is very similar to what you've said above.

I'm not ignoring Matthew 25 and whomever the author of "James" is...... got it wrong. That author appeals to the same arguments some are using in this thread as proof of serving God. That isn't proof. Paul got it right when he dealt with this issue.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Co 7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

It is a very "slippery slope" for another man to start claiming God's servants must live like themselves. That is what men do. I try to afford men Grace as God has. I leave the final judgement to God.

I've often thought there will be some that think they are going to be "cheering" the judgment of others will ignoring themselves. I don't believe that is going to happen. I'd about "bet" that every man will soon care more about his own pending judgment than those they criticized all these years.

 

[Soyeong]

I have no desire to continually repeat myself.

If you're unable to explain why I was wrong, then it is ok for you to admit that.

If they didn't haven't been guilt, they wouldn't have died. Why are you ignoring this?

Because that is false. It is contradictory for someone to both be blameless and guilty.

Googling an article leaves you less than capable of a valid response. You admit I know more yet insist that what you said doesn't match what I referenced. How does that actually work? Such is double mindedness.

An article should give me sufficient understanding of whether there might be some validity to what you said, but you're not even in the right ballpark. If this is accurate, then you are incorrect about my views:

"Hyper-dispensationalism (or sometimes ultra-dispensationalism), as opposed to traditional (or classic) Dispensationalism, views the start of the Christian church as beginning with the ministry of the Apostle Paul after the early part of the book of Acts. Although variations exist in specifics, all hyper-dispensationalists view the four Gospels and many of New Testament Epistles as applying to the pre-Pauline Jewish-Christian church or to the future Davidic Kingdom; not directly applicable to the predominantly Gentile Church of today."

I'm glad you recognize the superiority of Abraham. I hope you realize that Abraham continually sinned. Abraham did good things but it was only faith that pleased God.

If Abraham sinned, then he repented.

 

[Johann]

Never said it was. I agree with the very real fact that we are to produce good works. My problem is with those seeking to judge other's efforts when those same people don't actually answer to them.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Which is very similar to what you've said above.

I'm not ignoring Matthew 25 and whomever the author of "James" is...... got it wrong. That author appeals to the same arguments some are using in this thread as proof of serving God. That isn't proof. Paul got it right when he dealt with this issue.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Co 7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

It is a very "slippery slope" for another man to start claiming God's servants must live like themselves. That is what men do. I try to afford men Grace as God has. I leave the final judgement to God.

I've often thought there will be some that think they are going to be "cheering" the judgment of others will ignoring themselves. I don't believe that is going to happen. I'd about "bet" that every man will soon care more about his own pending judgment than those they criticized all these years.

Do me a favor-don't engage me in future-not if you don't believe James is not inspired.
And you are misrepresenting me with your subtle nuances.
There are many who need to hear the gospel-not by word only, but by deed.
Thanks
J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Do me a favor-don't engage me in future-not if you don't believe James is not inspired.
And you are misrepresenting me with your subtle nuances.
There are many who need to hear the gospel-not by word only, but by deed.
Thanks
J.

You can make James's arguments your own and defend his position."Inspiration" has often been used to stop people from thinking. There is nothing wrong with questions and challenges. Example, I ask God questions and He answers. He promised to answer me. We shouldn't avoid such questions. I will respect your request.

So you believe deeds sell the Gospel? I do too. Who's deeds might that be? Your deeds or the deeds of Christ?

I've heard this stuff all my life. That the Gospel works best when we sell it to others by our good deeds. I began to reject this tactic a long time ago. You know what I believe works best? I believe the Gospel works best when guilty men declare the truth of the wonderous Glory of Jesus Christ and the forgiveness of sin for all men.

I found this to be true the more I learned about God. The man that won me to Jesus is a seriously flawed man. If I judged Jesus Christ by him, then I what do think I would have done? I find no fault in Jesus Christ. Zero. All other men are guilty. I expect sin from sinners. Thank God I never have to worry about Jesus. I believe such a perspective as you have on selling the Gospel is flawed. It makes disciples of men, not disciples of Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If you're unable to explain why I was wrong, then it is ok for you to admit that.


Because that is false. It is contradictory for someone to both be blameless and guilty.


An article should give me sufficient understanding of whether there might be some validity to what you said, but you're not even in the right ballpark. If this is accurate, then you are incorrect about my views:

"Hyper-dispensationalism (or sometimes ultra-dispensationalism), as opposed to traditional (or classic) Dispensationalism, views the start of the Christian church as beginning with the ministry of the Apostle Paul after the early part of the book of Acts. Although variations exist in specifics, all hyper-dispensationalists view the four Gospels and many of New Testament Epistles as applying to the pre-Pauline Jewish-Christian church or to the future Davidic Kingdom; not directly applicable to the predominantly Gentile Church of today."


If Abraham sinned, then he repented.

Abraham repented? How do you know?

Tell me, have you ever sinned for years and not realized it? Did God abandon you?

 

[Johann]

You can make James's arguments your own and defend his position."Inspiration" has often been used to stop people from thinking. There is nothing wrong with questions and challenges. Example, I ask God questions and He answers. He promised to answer me. We shouldn't avoid such questions. I will respect your request.

So you believe deeds sell the Gospel? I do too. Who's deeds might that be? Your deeds or the deeds of Christ?

I've heard this stuff all my life. That the Gospel works best when we sell it to others by our good deeds. I began to reject this tactic a long time ago. You know what I believe works best? I believe the Gospel works best when guilty men declare the truth of the wonderous Glory of Jesus Christ and the forgiveness of sin for all men.

I found this to be true the more I learned about God. The man that won me to Jesus is a seriously flawed man. If I judged Jesus Christ by him, then I what do think I would have done? I find no fault in Jesus Christ. Zero. All other men are guilty. I expect sin from sinners. Thank God I never have to worry about Jesus. I believe such a perspective as you have on selling the Gospel is flawed. It makes disciples of men, not disciples of Christ.

Discerning Truth in a World..

Jim Schneider | Crosstalk America

sermonaudio.com

I am not rabbi Tovia-"selling" Judaism-or Islam-but the crucified and risen Christ Jesus-evangelizing online to those steeped in deception in the hope that they might hear-be convicted by the Spirit-and welcome the Mashiach.
J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Discerning Truth in a World..

Jim Schneider | Crosstalk America

sermonaudio.com

I am not rabbi Tovia-"selling" Judaism-or Islam-but the crucified and risen Christ Jesus-evangelizing online to those steeped in deception in the hope that they might hear-be convicted by the Spirit-and welcome the Mashiach.
J.

I didn't think otherwise. Just dealing with a proper perspective.

 

[Soyeong]

So you're an practicing Orthodox Jew? Do you wear Priestly garments?

Following Christ's example is not just for Orthodox Jews, but also for Gentiles too.

Nonsense. God has given Grace to all men. Even those Gentiles you "seem" not to appreciate. You know, those "second class" children?

Well then do you think that you should be dead or not?

I said nothing about not appreciating Gentile or as seeing Gentiles as "second class" children.

So you actually practice stoning children that curse their father and mother? Be specific.

It would be unlawful to enforce a penalty that has already been paid.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Following Christ's example is not just for Orthodox Jews, but also for Gentiles too.

You mean the example of dying for man's sins? How exactly do I follow that example?

Do you wear Priestly garments? Are you a priest in the order of Aaron or Melchizedek.... like Christ? If you're going to follow Christ's example, then you have many things to follow. Many of them are impossible for you. You need to recognize this. You need to add this to your theology. It will stop you from making the false claims you're making.

Well then do you think that you should be dead or not?

I'm dead with Christ and my life is hide with Christ in God. Or do you reject those words?

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

I suppose you're already perfect? You have a standard that requires current perfection. Myself.... I'm going to be changed. I need to be changed. I have a war going on this life. A war between flesh/bone and Spirit. A war where the flesh wins more than I care to admit. Yet, I must admit it. It is realty. I am a wretched man.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Are you going be changed? If you're capable of doing what you claim you can do, then why do you need to be changed?

I said nothing about not appreciating Gentile or as seeing Gentiles as "second class" children.

I already know what you believe. Don't pretend your theology doesn't promote one man OVER another. I know differently. Why don't we start a thread and discuss that fact. I believe I will.

It would be unlawful to enforce a penalty that has already been paid.

You're one the said the law must be enforced. You believe in punishment for breaking the law.... right? You can't claim forgiveness from breaking the law while demanding adherence to the law. There is word for that. It is called hypocrisy.

Be bold as a lion. You can say it. You can say that children should be stoned for cursing father and mother. After all, you've not done it yourself. What does it matter.... right?

There is no Empathy to be found in this "theological requirement" you're pushing. Just punishment.

 

[Soyeong]

Abraham repented? How do you know?

Tell me, have you ever sinned for years and not realized it? Did God abandon you?

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teaching his children and those of his household to walk in His way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heave, to his children he will give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham love the Lord their God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to possess. So the promise was made to Abraham because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he spread the Gospel by teaching his children and those of his household to do that, and because his children did that. If Abraham lived in sin without practicing repentance, then the promise would have never been made to him.

People can repent or not through their actions regardless of what they say with their mouth.

 

[Soyeong]

You mean the example of dying for man's sins? How exactly do I follow that example?

Do you wear Priestly garments? Are you a priest in the order of Aaron or Melchizedek.... like Christ? If you're going to follow Christ's example, then you have many things to follow. Many of them are impossible for you. You need to recognize this. You need to add this to your theology. It will stop you from making the false claims you're making.

Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and we are told to follow his example of refraining from sin (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). In 1 Peter 2:21-22, it is not speaking about follow his example of dying for our sins or about wearing robes and sandals. I do not were the Levitical priestly garments because I am not a Levitical priest.

I'm dead with Christ and my life is hide with Christ in God. Or do you reject those words?

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

I suppose you're already perfect? You have a standard that requires current perfection. Myself.... I'm going to be changed. I need to be changed. I have a war going on this life. A war between flesh/bone and Spirit. A war where the flesh wins more than I care to admit. Yet, I must admit it. It is realty. I am a wretched man.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Are you going be changed? If you're capable of doing what you claim you can do, then why do you need to be changed?

I don't reject those words, just taking them out of context. I said nothing about being perfect or about having a standard that requires perfection. Indeed, you need to be changed into someone who follows the Torah in accordance with Christ example instead of arguing against doing that. I am capable because I have been changed.

I already know what you believe. Don't pretend your theology doesn't promote one man OVER another. I know differently. Why don't we start a thread and discuss that fact. I believe I will.

I've said nothing to promote one man over another, but I supposed I can't stop you from making up things about what I believe.

You're one the said the law must be enforced. You believe in punishment for breaking the law.... right? You can't claim forgiveness from breaking the law while demanding adherence to the law. There is word for that. It is called hypocrisy.

Be bold as a lion. You can say it. You can say that children should be stoned for cursing father and mother. After all, you've not done it yourself. What does it matter.... right?

There is no Empathy to be found in this "theological requirement" you're pushing. Just punishment.

The law still has a penalty and that penalty has been paid, so again it would be unlawful to enforce a penalty that has already be paid. To demand that the penalty still be enforced would be to deny that Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty. I'm said nothing about pushing judgement, but you feel free to make up whatever you want about what I believe.

 

[praise_yeshua]

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teaching his children and those of his household to walk in His way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heave, to his children he will give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham love the Lord their God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to possess. So the promise was made to Abraham because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he spread the Gospel by teaching his children and those of his household to do that, and because his children did that. If Abraham lived in sin without practicing repentance, then the promise would have never been made to him.

People can repent or not through their actions regardless of what they say with their mouth.

Bloviating again.... You don't have to remind me of the narrative over and over again. I know the narrative. The last two sentences in your response is relative.

You need to provide evidence for your claim here. The Scriptures state specifically that Abraham believed God. That is the reason God approved of Abraham. You're adding your bias to the narrative.

In fact, you believe God to some degree, yet you still sin. Knowing myself and humanity, I know we all do. You're not different than I am. We are brothers in Adam.

I asked a question that you ignored. Have you ever sinned and it took a long time to recognize it yourself? I know the answer. It is why you didn't answer. The answer is yes. Your own experience defeats your arguments.

This life is a life of discovery. It often takes many years for us to see ourselves for what we actually are. I'm glad that God extends Grace to us. You should focus on Grace and not your own efforts.

 

[Soyeong]

Bloviating again.... You don't have to remind me of the narrative over and over again. I know the narrative. The last two sentences in your response is relative.

You need to provide evidence for your claim here. The Scriptures state specifically that Abraham believed God. That is the reason God approved of Abraham. You're adding your bias to the narrative.

In fact, you believe God to some degree, yet you still sin. Knowing myself and humanity, I know we all do. You're not different than I am. We are brothers in Adam.

I asked a question that you ignored. Have you ever sinned and it took a long time to recognize it yourself? I know the answer. It is why you didn't answer. The answer is yes. Your own experience defeats your arguments.

This life is a life of discovery. It often takes many years for us to see ourselves for what we actually are. I'm glad that God extends Grace to us. You should focus on Grace and not your own efforts.

You demand evidence from Scripture and then complain when I do that.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5).

I did no ignore the question, but rather I said that we can repent through our actions regardless of what we say.

Something that we do through own efforts efforts does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to think that focusing on relying on what God has instructed is focusing on our own efforts. God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey the Torah (Psalms 119:29-30, Exodus 33:13, Genesis 6:8-9, Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14), so obedience to it is the way to focus on grace.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You demand evidence from Scripture and then complain when I do that.

You didn't reference anything relative.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5).

He never offered Isaac. Isaac lived. God provided "Himself" a sacrifice. While Abraham was leading Isaac up the mountain, God was little that little Ram up the other side of the mountain. Isaac was never in danger. Abraham believed in the crucifiction of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Gospel was preached to Abraham. Abraham could not do what was required of him. He had to rely upon another. Your theology does not establish these facts.

I did no ignore the question, but rather I said that we can repent through our actions regardless of what we say.

Through our actions? Really. When you sin again what does that "say"?

Something that we do through own efforts efforts does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to think that focusing on relying on what God has instructed is focusing on our own efforts. God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey the Torah (Psalms 119:29-30, Exodus 33:13, Genesis 6:8-9, Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14), so obedience to it is the way to focus on grace.

I'm glad you used that word. Torah. I've been looking to start a conversation on that word. Just where did Christ Jesus use the word "Torah"? "Torah" means several different things depending on who says it.

You haven't obeyed the Torah. You have broken the Torah. Not once, but many times over.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and we are told to follow his example of refraining from sin (1 Peter 2:21-22),

This is one of your primary issues. I have repeatedly said this now and I'm not going to keep saying it. We are coming to end of my involvement. I'm not going to continue to be ignored. I don't believe I've ignored one single argument you've made.

If Christ is your example, then when are you going to die for mankind's sins? When are you going to accomplish the Atonement. Christ did what you STILL can't do. He is BETTER than us all. We are at best Ambassadors. We never speak of ourselves. We always speak and reference Christ.

How can I accept your claims when this much is so glaringly obvious. Is your response to just keep ignoring this to promote your talking points?

 

[Soyeong]

You didn't reference anything relative.

I showed that Abraham obeyed God's law and spread the Gospel by showing others to do that.

He never offered Isaac. Isaac lived. God provided "Himself" a sacrifice. While Abraham was leading Isaac up the mountain, God was little that little Ram up the other side of the mountain. Isaac was never in danger. Abraham believed in the crucifiction of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Gospel was preached to Abraham. Abraham could not do what was required of him. He had to rely upon another. Your theology does not establish these facts.T

I haven't said anything contrary to that.

Through our actions? Really. When you sin again what does that "say"?

That we need to repent.

I'm glad you used that word. Torah. I've been looking to start a conversation on that word. Just where did Christ Jesus use the word "Torah"? "Torah" means several different things depending on who says it.

For example, in Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came not to abolish the Torah and the Prophets, but to fulfill them. "Torah" generally refers to the Books of Moses or to the instructions that they contain.

You haven't obeyed the Torah. You have broken the Torah. Not once, but many times over.

The fact that I've broken the Torah many times does not mean that I haven't also obeyed it or that I haven't repented. If someone did something to honor their parents and then spent the rest of their life living in unrepentant sin, then that wouldn't change that they had done something in obedience to the Torah, so their disobedience to it does not mean that they haven't also obeyed it.

 

[Soyeong]

This is one of your primary issues. I have repeatedly said this now and I'm not going to keep saying it. We are coming to end of my involvement. I'm not going to continue to be ignored. I don't believe I've ignored one single argument you've made.

If Christ is your example, then when are you going to die for mankind's sins? When are you going to accomplish the Atonement. Christ did what you STILL can't do. He is BETTER than us all. We are at best Ambassadors. We never speak of ourselves. We always speak and reference Christ.

How can I accept your claims when this much is so glaringly obvious. Is your response to just keep ignoring this to promote your talking points?

I did not ignore that, but rather I addressed it and I will address it again. Again, 1 Peter 2:21-22 states that we should follow Christ's example of refraining from sin, not that we need to die for mankind's sins.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I did not ignore that, but rather I addressed it and I will address it again. Again, 1 Peter 2:21-22 states that we should follow Christ's example of refraining from sin, not that we need to die for mankind's sins.

Like I said, you are admitting that you can't follow the example of Christ and yet you are claiming to follow the example of Christ. YOU are not dealing this. You are "deflecting".

Do you only listen to Peter?