The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

Runningman said:
Your philosophy doesn't really make any sense with the Bible. You just said Jesus is the Word and the Father is God, but John 1:1 from the KJV says:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So if Jesus is the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, but God is the Father as you said then John 1:1 could read like:

In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father, and Jesus was the Father.
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God is a personal being, but we do not say that Jesus and God are the same individual. We say that Jesus and the Father are unique individual beings who are both God in quality of their existence. Just like you and I are unique individual beings who are “human” in quality of our existence.

Thus, “in the beginning was the Word, (that is in the context of eternity past before creation began) and the Word was with God, (indicating two distinct individuals in a communal relationship) and the Word was God. (In relation to his nature of being eternal and his quality of nature of existence. ie, What type of being he was in the beginning before creation began while co-existing with the Father.)

Doug
 
Runningman said:
Nonsense. I don't want you to be a Muslim, but rather I want you to be a Christian. You want me to be a Muslim and now you're denying that you're the one acting like a Muslim. You're tripping over your own shoe laces.
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It's not that I want you to be a Muslim, it's that you are thinking exactly like a Trinitarian-denying Muslim. In fact, you could easily rise to the level of an Imam with the way you despise the Trinity.
 
synergy said:
It's not that I want you to be a Muslim, it's that you are thinking exactly like a Trinitarian-denying Muslim. In fact, you could easily rise to the level of an Imam with the way you despise the Trinity.
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It's not that I think like a "Trinity denying" Muslim anymore than your act a Unitarian denying polytheistic pagan. I don't despise your beliefs. I am debating them and vetting them against the Bible.
 
TibiasDad said:
God is a personal being, but we do not say that Jesus and God are the same individual. We say that Jesus and the Father are unique individual beings who are both God in quality of their existence. Just like you and I are unique individual beings who are “human” in quality of our existence.

Thus, “in the beginning was the Word, (that is in the context of eternity past before creation began) and the Word was with God, (indicating two distinct individuals in a communal relationship) and the Word was God. (In relation to his nature of being eternal and his quality of nature of existence. ie, What type of being he was in the beginning before creation began while co-existing with the Father.)

Doug
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I don't see it the same way because there is no one in the beginning with God creating in Genesis or elsewhere in the Old Testament. I see it more along the lines of how John put it in 1 John 1:1-3 where he referred to the Word of life as a thing. I know that the Word is not a person and a thing at the same time. So the way it makes most sense in accordance with what the Bible says is that John 1:1 either has translation issues or it's more along the lines of poetry.
 
Runningman said:
I don't see it the same way because there is no one in the beginning with God creating in Genesis or elsewhere in the Old Testament. I see it more along the lines of how John put it in 1 John 1:1-3 where he referred to the Word of life as a thing. I know that the Word is not a person and a thing at the same time. So the way it makes most sense in accordance with what the Bible says is that John 1:1 either has translation issues or it's more along the lines of poetry.
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so you might just be an accidental heretic.

I suspect you encounter sort of the limitations of what the Trinitarian conception portrays. It may be that the Trinitarian aspect of the Godhead lacks some element that blocks you from seeing the divinity of Christ in the Godhead such that an improved doctrine could explain the Sonship of Christ in a way that you would recognize the Triune nature. You are just stumbling over terminology or abstract details.

The result is that you cannot think around and beyond your denial of the obvious passages of the divinity of Christ. That is the best I can discern for your situation. It is possible God could give you leeway for making that error.
 
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TibiasDad said:
Where to start….?

First of all, heir, cannot be taken literally, for the Father cannot die. Heir is symbolic of being family, and Jesus is the Son of God. We become family with the Father and the Son when we are adopted, not because of we are like in nature of God, but because we were created in his image and are His creation.

Jesus/the Word was in the beginning with the Father/God, which means he is eternal in nature of existence. The only type being that is eternal/uncreated is God. If he is with God in the Beginning, then he is co-eternal with the Father.


Doug
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There's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the Bible. No whole paragraph or chapter teaching that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.
 
mikesw said:
funny how you request that be in scripture and we see Jesus conveying his divinity. We could call your symptoms as blindness.
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Every single place I post the following folks comment on... "There's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the Bible. No whole paragraph or chapter teaching..." But nobody and I mean nobody says jack about... "that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God."

There's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the Bible. No whole paragraph or chapter teaching that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
 
Peterlag said:
Every single place I post the following folks comment on... "There's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the Bible. No whole paragraph or chapter teaching..." But nobody and I mean nobody says jack about... "that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God."
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I do not understand your point here about people saying jack.

Peterlag said:
There's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the Bible. No whole paragraph or chapter teaching that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
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That is your philosophical eisegetical option if you want to neglect broad themes in scripture. I shared with Runningman that the problem of missing the triune nature of God may be with some nuances that could use improvement in the Trinitarian doctrine.
 
mikesw said:
I do not understand your point here about people saying jack.


That is your philosophical eisegetical option if you want to neglect broad themes in scripture. I shared with Runningman that the problem of missing the triune nature of God may be with some nuances that could use improvement in the Trinitarian doctrine.
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Forget about the first part of the following sentence. Let's talk about the last part of the sentence. Everyone comments on the first half of the sentence and does not say jack (anything) about the second half of the sentence. In other words where's the verse that says that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

There's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the Bible. No whole paragraph or chapter teaching that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
 
Runningman said:
It's not that I think like a "Trinity denying" Muslim anymore than your act a Unitarian denying polytheistic pagan. I don't despise your beliefs. I am debating them and vetting them against the Bible.
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You would make a fantastic Imam with your unfounded derogatory comments like "polytheistic pagan' stigmatizations. That's your calling right there! Go for being an Imam who is oblivious to the fact that Trinitarians are monotheistic by virtue of the fact that God is One by nature.
 
Runningman said:
Matthew 6:6,9 is the teaching from Jesus about prayer. Do you believe if Jesus only ever opened his mouth about praying to the Father then that is what we should go by or are we free to include others as well?
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In Jesus’ name, Amen

When Jesus ascended to heaven after his resurrection, he became our intercessor and our advocate to the Father. Praying in his name is to acknowledge and remember that Christ is the only way—that our standing before the Father is based on the finished work of Christ alone. We come to him in prayer, not because of our own works or merit, but in the name of Jesus.

King James Version​

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

English Standard Version​

Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

The Message​

From now on, whatever you request along the lines of who I am and what I am doing, I'll do it. That's how the Father will be seen for who he is in the Son. I mean it. Whatever you request in this way, I'll do.

New King James Version​

And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

New Living Translation​

You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!
 
God the Son, eternal God come to earth in human, but sinless, flesh and we most definitely can and should be prayed to. Jesus Christ is eternal God.
 
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mikesw said:
so you might just be an accidental heretic.

I suspect you encounter sort of the limitations of what the Trinitarian conception portrays. It may be that the Trinitarian aspect of the Godhead lacks some element that blocks you from seeing the divinity of Christ in the Godhead such that an improved doctrine could explain the Sonship of Christ in a way that you would recognize the Triune nature. You are just stumbling over terminology or abstract details.

The result is that you cannot think around and beyond your denial of the obvious passages of the divinity of Christ. That is the best I can discern for your situation. It is possible God could give you leeway for making that error.
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I think you may be an accidental heretic as well, so let's try a different angle to see if we can get you to see what the Bible is actually talking about.

I think the way to reach you and the others here may be to find other doctrines aside from the trinity that lack Biblical support, that maybe you also reject, but can still be inferred from the Bible. The trinity is clearly a non-negotiable for you, but do you see that @101G preaches Oneness with tenacity and energy every day, posts walls of scripture and supporting evidence, but has completely missed the mark?

There is also the Immaculate Conception since there is no direct mention in the Bible of Mary being conceived without original sin.

There is the Assumption of Mary that says Mary was taken both body and soul into heaven at the end of her life. The Bible doesn't mention that, but there are ways to preach it by piecing verses together.

There is the doctrine of Purgatory where there is no explicit mention of it in the Bible.

The Trinity doctrine is in the same boat as these other doctrines. It is never directly talked about. Like the other aforementioned doctrines, the Trinity also comes from Catholicism.

See how you're mishandling the Scriptures yet?
 
synergy said:
You would make a fantastic Imam with your unfounded derogatory comments like "polytheistic pagan' stigmatizations. That's your calling right there! Go for being an Imam who is oblivious to the fact that Trinitarians are monotheistic by virtue of the fact that God is One by nature.
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But you just used an unfounded derogatory statement about me being a "Trinitarian-denying Muslim." You seem to be a closet Muslim. No thanks I'll stick with Christainity.
 
Wilber said:
In Jesus’ name, Amen

When Jesus ascended to heaven after his resurrection, he became our intercessor and our advocate to the Father. Praying in his name is to acknowledge and remember that Christ is the only way—that our standing before the Father is based on the finished work of Christ alone. We come to him in prayer, not because of our own works or merit, but in the name of Jesus.

King James Version​

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

English Standard Version​

Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

The Message​

From now on, whatever you request along the lines of who I am and what I am doing, I'll do it. That's how the Father will be seen for who he is in the Son. I mean it. Whatever you request in this way, I'll do.

New King James Version​

And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

New Living Translation​

You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!
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Jesus said don't ask him for anything later.

John 16 KJV
23And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
 
Peterlag said:
Every single place I post the following folks comment on... "There's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the Bible. No whole paragraph or chapter teaching..." But nobody and I mean nobody says jack about... "that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God."

There's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the Bible. No whole paragraph or chapter teaching that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
Click to expand...
I realized that there are probably some other doctrines that are not mentioned in the Bible that they probably reject as heresy, but adopt a different standard for the trinity because their churches teach it. Psychology is a funny and fascinating thing. It's possible for the human mind to be indoctrinated and that person will swear they see something that no one else can see. For example, the trinity isn't mentioned in the Bible but they still see it there.
 
Runningman said:
Jesus said don't ask him for anything later.

John 16 KJV
23And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
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Jesus and the Father are one.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”


John 1:1 explicitly notes that Jesus was both with God in the beginning and was God.

Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.
Got?
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Runningman said:
On the point of Jesus not being God, Muslims are correct, but I am not a Muslim.
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both you and muslims are incorrect- you believing the same thing should be your first clue from the unbelieving/ ungodly islamists.

A true believer has nothing in common with Isalm when it comes to biblical truth especially concerning God, the Father and the Son and salvation
 

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