The 5 Articles of Remonstrance (Arminianism)

[Eternally-Grateful]

Determinism.
Hard determinism.

What's the difference?

If the outcome is the same.

God,,,in Calvinist theology, is not a just God.

There is NO RECONCILIATION between
FOREKNOWLEDGE and PREDESTINATION

We either have free will or we do not.
Compatibilism is Not free will....
as much as some I've posted to seem to believe that it is.

predestination is based on foreknowqledge.

That allows God to remain a just God.

 

[Dizerner]

Oh really? And just where in the Bible to you read about that "sin nature"?

The body of sin and death, the old man, everyone dying in the first Adam, the flesh in which no dwells no good thing.

But I'm sure there's lots of great things in your flesh, right?

All over the place, self-righteous theology is everywhere condemned in Scripture.

Anyway, we've already been over this, I have an entire thread with hundreds of Scriptures.

Thread 'FOUR reasons I believe in the sinful nature. (original sin/ancestral sin/total depravity)'

Aug 17, 2023

PREFACE.

For those whom I have come across, who deny that humans have a sinful nature, that is a nature that is incapable of performing a righteously meritorious thought or action without supernatural undeserved grace from God, it all seems to stem back to the idea that, if God allows such a thing, it makes people victims instead of criminals, since no one can help sinning. And underneath that is the appeal to the idea that we can improve ourselves and polish up our genuinely good and pure nature underneath, a kind of self-esteem and self-improvement program to discover the...

• Dizerner
• Replies: 299
• Forum: Original Sin

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Correct.
Did you see my post no. 33?

It's just a term to explain a conditon of mankind.
What we want to call it isn't so important...
what it REPRESENTS IS important.

yes people use different terms to do the same thing

 

[atpollard]

Determinism. Compatibalism (Soft Determinism)
Hard determinism.

What's the difference?

Adam
Sin
Fallen
Human Nature

... One claims they matter and the other claims that they make no difference.

• (a distinction that makes all the difference in the world.)

 

[GodsGrace]

Adam
Sin
Fallen
Human Nature

... One claims they matter and the other claims that they make no difference.

• (a distinction that makes all the difference in the world.)

HOW does
Adam
Sin
Fallen
Human Nature

matter if God is doing all the work?

 

[Jim]

What does sarx mean in Koine Greek?

G4561
σάρξ
sarx
sarx
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

 

[Jim]

flesh nature (the nature to serve self) which would equal a sin nature which by definition is serving self

So then you think eating food and drinking water is sin.

 

[atpollard]

HOW does
Adam
Sin
Fallen
Human Nature

matter if God is doing all the work?

God doesn't do ALL the work ...

• Man provides the sin ("Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." - James 1:13-15)
• Man flees the light ("For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." - John 3:20)
• Man hides ("And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden." - Genesis 3-8)
• Man is not willing ("O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!" - Matthew 23:37)
• Man walks in disobedience earning the wrath ("And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." - Ephesians 2:1-3)

God merely does the WORK of salvation, not damnation ... That is the SOFT of Soft Determinism and the part that matters.

 

[GodsGrace]

God doesn't do ALL the work ...

• Man provides the sin ("Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." - James 1:13-15)
• Man flees the light ("For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." - John 3:20)
• Man hides ("And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden." - Genesis 3-8)
• Man is not willing ("O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!" - Matthew 23:37)
• Man walks in disobedience earning the wrath ("And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." - Ephesians 2:1-3)

God merely does the WORK of salvation, not damnation ... That is the SOFT of Soft Determinism and the part that matters.

When the NT teaches us that we are to do good works....
It means good works.

It's not speaking about us sinning.

And God does NOT do all the work for us....
we contribute to our salvation by doing good works.....

Your reply just shows how fatal calvinism is.

I'll reply to the verses you posted above. Perhaps there's some light at the end of the tunnel:
My replies in green.


1. Man provides the sin.
Agreed.


2. Man flees the light... Your verse:

• Man flees the light ("For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." - John 3:20)

Man comes to the light:
John 3:21
21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
Just as everyone practicing evil hates the light and flees from it...
Those that practice the truth come to the light.
3. Man hides....your verse

• Man hides ("And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden." - Genesis 3-8)

Man depends on God:

Genesis 4:1
1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, "I have gotten a manchild with the help of the LORD."
Adam and Eve's relationship with God changed.
But they still sought Him and they still felt He was with them and they still relied on Him for help.
4. Man is not willing.....your verse
("O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!" Matthew 23:37


No counter verse required.
You posted a verse that proves that man has free will.
If man has the free will to NOT be willing...
then he also has the free will to BE willing.

(those in Acts that believed were willing.
Those that were baptized were willing.
Those that profess their faith are willing....)


5. Man walks in disobedience earning the wrath of God....
Agreed.



You haven't really explained the difference between soft determinism and determinism.
Determinism means that God determines....God predestines.....God decrees.

Is this not what determinism means?

Every Christian knows that God saves mankind.
What does that have to do with God determining?

 

[GodsGrace]

@Jim

REPLY on your post no. 46 won't work.

But I agree with @Eternally-Grateful in his post no. 47

I really don't understand your reply to him.....

The flesh,,,in the NT,,,,means that thing in us that makes us tend toward sin.

Do you not agree with this?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So then you think eating food and drinking water is sin.

lol

I mean really now

do you really want me to answer this nonsensical question?

give me a break.

That is required. who gives you the food. do you thank self for the food. or do you thank God?

I am talking about taking sex, Taking someone property (theft) etc etc

 

[synergy]

lol

I mean really now

do you really want me to answer this nonsensical question?

give me a break.

That is required. who gives you the food. do you thank self for the food. or do you thank God?

I am talking about taking sex, Taking someone property (theft) etc etc

Therefore, flesh in and of itself is not sinful. God is not in the business of creating sinful anything let alone a sinful nature or a sin nature, whatever you want to call it. Nature doesn't sin, people sin. It is us as persons who sin. As such, we all have one common human nature (no aliens around us) and it is us as persons who sin. That way we are the one responsible for our sins.

 

[GodsGrace]

Therefore, flesh in and of itself is not sinful. God is not in the business of creating sinful anything let alone a sinful nature or a sin nature, whatever you want to call it. Nature doesn't sin, people sin. It is us as persons who sin. As such, we all have one common human nature (no aliens around us) and it is us as persons who sin. That way we are the one responsible for our sins.

It's difficult for me to realize that some Christians don't understand the FLESH,,,,,,or SINFUL NATURE,,,,or anything else one wants to call it.

So let me ask this:

WHAT is it in mankind that makes him tend toward sin (before salvation)?

 

[GodsGrace]

Therefore, flesh in and of itself is not sinful. God is not in the business of creating sinful anything let alone a sinful nature or a sin nature, whatever you want to call it. Nature doesn't sin, people sin. It is us as persons who sin. As such, we all have one common human nature (no aliens around us) and it is us as persons who sin. That way we are the one responsible for our sins.

PS

@Eternally-Grateful and I are NOT stating that God creates sin.

 

[ProDeo]

1. Conditional Election: Arminians believe God's election of individuals for salvation is based on foreseen faith and perseverance.
2. Universal Atonement: Christ's death on the cross is considered sufficient for the sins of all people, not just the elect, but salvation is only applied to those who believe and persevere.
3. Human Inability: While humans cannot achieve saving faith on their own, they are not inherently totally depraved. God's grace is necessary, but humans can respond to it.
4. Resistible Grace: God's grace is not irresistible; it can be resisted and rejected by individuals.
5. Uncertainty of Perseverance: While believers are called to persevere, they can, in principle, fall from grace.

In comparison to TULIP, sounds and smells like a ROSE

 

[ProDeo]

Oh really? And just where in the Bible to you read about that "sin nature"?

Ps 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This ?

Just for the discussion, I have no fixed opinion, complicated...

 

[Jim]

@Jim

REPLY on your post no. 46 won't work.

But I agree with @Eternally-Grateful in his post no. 47

I really don't understand your reply to him.....

The flesh,,,in the NT,,,,means that thing in us that makes us tend toward sin.

Do you not agree with this?

I believe it is human nature to not always obey God's law. Most of the times that we choose to disobey are in one way or another associated with the fact that we have desires of the flesh.

 

[atpollard]

In comparison to TULIP, sounds and smells like a ROSE

I completely agree. If I were creating a ‘god’ I would never have selected the plan of salvation that HE chose. That is one of the things that philosophers point to as evidence that “God is not an invention from the imagination of man”.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe it is human nature to not always obey God's law. Most of the times that we choose to disobey are in one way or another associated with the fact that we have desires of the flesh.

Agreed.....but....
Those desires Of the flesh are caused by something.

This is not important to me.
But when I grasped the meaning of the sinful nature, or what you want to call it, it helped me a lot to understand our human nature prior to being saved.

Maybe it does,,,,maybe not.

 

[atpollard]

When the NT teaches us that we are to do good works....
It means good works.

It's not speaking about us sinning.

And God does NOT do all the work for us....
we contribute to our salvation by doing good works.....

Your reply just shows how fatal calvinism is.

I'll reply to the verses you posted above. Perhaps there's some light at the end of the tunnel:
My replies in green.


1. Man provides the sin.
Agreed.


2. Man flees the light... Your verse:

• Man flees the light ("For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." - John 3:20)

Man comes to the light:
John 3:21
21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
Just as everyone practicing evil hates the light and flees from it...
Those that practice the truth come to the light.
3. Man hides....your verse

• Man hides ("And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden." - Genesis 3-8)

Man depends on God:

Genesis 4:1
1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, "I have gotten a manchild with the help of the LORD."
Adam and Eve's relationship with God changed.
But they still sought Him and they still felt He was with them and they still relied on Him for help.
4. Man is not willing.....your verse
("O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!" Matthew 23:37


No counter verse required.
You posted a verse that proves that man has free will.
If man has the free will to NOT be willing...
then he also has the free will to BE willing.

(those in Acts that believed were willing.
Those that were baptized were willing.
Those that profess their faith are willing....)


5. Man walks in disobedience earning the wrath of God....
Agreed.



You haven't really explained the difference between soft determinism and determinism.
Determinism means that God determines....God predestines.....God decrees.

Is this not what determinism means?

Every Christian knows that God saves mankind.
What does that have to do with God determining?

Just out of curiosity, why do you ask questions if your response to the answer is to explain why that is not what I really believe or mean? You asked a very specific question and I answered the question that you asked. This non sequitur is your response. Even if every word in the above is true (and it is not) it has nothing to do with the question you asked and I answered.