Tensions in Calvin’s Idea of Predestination

[praise_yeshua]

You said " Even thought requires order. Sequence. Cause and effect."

I disagree because it not always does. When you multitask things often blurr to the point of no order.
A decision has to be made and if you chose to un multitask. Fine... You will be back to order.

In a case like I am... I just keep the multitaking up until all is done.

Same with replying to differing threads and subjects in different forum.

It is more of a balancing act.

Wrong order imo...
You
The willingness of Christ alone requires the willingness of the creature.

Agreed, but there would be no need for "willingness" when the creature hass come to seek themselves. Then the Willingness of Christ acts

You
If Jesus Christ was predetermined, God's choice above all, then all things must answer to that choice.

You are not a trin are you? I need to start a score card.

There is no argument . Jesus WAS predetermined. As the messiah, what do you think was the reason he was sent?
Yes, all things must answer to that choice for that reason..... Either with a for as we have seen, Jesus came only for the lost sheep of Israel... and not all of them fell into line. The offer was made, the reasons for the offer were explained and still some said no due to inability to understand or due to what they preferred.

I do not expect you to understand.

You
Divinity requires sequential thought when an opposing will is variable.

This requires no comment.... DUH.

I noticed your signature.

When God was planning and predestined Jesus Christ to make man in His own Image and after His own likeness....

Did God have your personally "in mind". I believe your signature would require this.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Even when you multitask those thoughts themselves have order. It is called concurrent processing. However, there is no such thing as thoughts without sequence. Cause and effect. I know, I build things.

I did. I used to fabricate window treatments and things for the home,,, as wwell as many a cornice board I constructed and installed my own work.

But right now this afternoon I have, aside from replies here, and elsewhere, attempted unsuccessfully to handle a printer problem at the same time because I need something printed from the printer and it is not happening today, during this time I was researching for a trip I am planning. So while I am posting here, and got one sentence I concurrently was looking up mileage from Forge Road to Lorton VA and pulling up what I could from HO about what may be wrong with the printer that once again went off line and today would not come back only to believe now it is verizons fault because HP said wifi direct has been temporarily deactivated because you wifi network is currently useing a restricted 5 Ghz cahnnel 132 (DFS).Because this channel is used by radar systems . WIFI Direct is unable to operate using this channel in the printer. And while all this is simultaneously going on and I am tryig to type one though while thinking about others like routes, and such my main laptop
screen went black while using . Then it came back and I turned away and when I turned back it was black again.

So you tell me about my thoughts and what sequence was there when 4 things were being thought at once.

Without order of events, there is no process. It is called chaos.

But you do not have to have a systematic process to avoid chaos.

Nope. You maybe fast but there is always an order of events. I know. I build things.

Ah, well,.... I wont fight you anymore... I am going to go make dinner now.

Balance requires order. 1,2,3,4,5,6 Even concurrent acts must be reassembled in order.



Can you rephrase. I don't understand.

I don't understand you.

Yes. I know it better than most anyone else.



To make man in God's likeness and after His image. I think I've already said this.



Then why do you insist that God's thought have no order?

This I see as God being very orderly

Gen 1

In Gen 1

The First Day
3And God said, “Let there be light,

The Second Day
6And God said, “Let there be an expanse ~ 8God called the expanse “sky.”

The Third Day
9“Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, 10God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” 11Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation:

The Fourth Day
14And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky
16God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. And He made the stars as well.

The Fifth Day
20And God said, “Let the waters teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth

The Sixth Day
24And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds:

TO THIS POINT IT WAS ALL NICE AND ORDERLY.

light
sky
waters and dry land
vegetation
more light
waters with life and birds in the air
and living creatures for the earth

ORDERLY

AND THEN

26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness,
27male and female He created them.
28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth
29Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit contains seed. They will be yours for food
Show me the orderliness in Gen 2, picking up after the 7th day.
4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created,

5Now no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, nor had any plant, no man to cultivate the ground.

NOTE: IN GEN 1 EVERYTHING WAS MADE AND GROWING BEFORE GOD MADE MAN AND WOMAN. THE SEAS WERE STOCKED, THE BIRDS IN THE AIR WERE FLYING, THE BEASTS OF THE FIELD WERE MADE AND THEN CAME THE MAN AND THE WOMAN.

6 But springsc welled up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

STILL AT THIS POINT NOTHING IS GROWING, THERE ARE NO FISH BIRDS OR ANIMALS.

NOW
7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

AFTER THE MAN IS FORMED AND GOD BREATHED LIFE INTO HIM HE GOES AND PLANTS A GARDEN FOR THE MAN TO LIVE IN... NOT THE ENTIRE EARTH....

8And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, where He placed the man He had formed.

9 Out of the ground the LORD God gave growth to every tree that is pleasing to the eye and good for food. And in the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

AND THROUGH VERSE 10 THROUGH 14 WE HEAR OF THE RIVERS AND WHY THEY ARE SPECIAL

15Then the LORD God took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it.

BY HIMSELF

16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden,

17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil;

18The LORD God also said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make for him a suitable helper.”

19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and He brought them to the man to see what he would name each one. And whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

20 But for Adam no suitable helper was found.

21So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he slept, He took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the area with flesh.

22And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him

23And the man said:

“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’

IN GEN 1 WE HAD AN ORDERLY START TO THINGS WITH GOD MAKING MAN AND WOMAN AT THE END OF
ALL PLANT AND ANIMAL LIFE. THEY WERE TOLD TO GO CARE FOR IT AND THE EARTH AND TO MULTIPLY.

IN GEN 2 WE HAVE

no shrub yet but a mention of springs
nothing is growing yet. no fish, birds or animals
then God made man and breathed life into him
finally he made the garden in Eden
and THEN put the man there.
And God caused the trees to grow, including the ones forbidden
And God told the man to cultivate the garden
And he told the man he could eat of every tree except
the tree of knowledge of good and evil

then God knew he needed a helper
So he brought all the animals, and birds for the man to name
BUT no helper was found for him

So God caused him to fall asleep and took a rib.
And formed a woman from the man's rib
And Adam called her woman, for she was taken from man

NOT EXACTLY THE NICE ORDER OF GEN 1

Gen 1 and the first couple were told to tend the earth, to multiply, and that they were allowed to eat of the plants and trees with NO exception.

Gen 2 and the man was placed in a specially made garden just for him , and God was going to allow him to name and pick an animal or bird to be his helper, and when none was found created a woman from the mans rib. He was told to eat of all the trees, just not the one of Good and Evil.

The difference is, aside from telling the man to cultivate the garden, they could eat of any tree but the one of good and evil.

Adam and Eve were treated entirely differently from the first couple.

Adam had life breathed into him. There was no mention of this when God simply said Let us make man in our image and he made them... at the same time.

And the fact there was not a 7th day to be rest and kept holy in Gen 1 leads me further to believe that Gen 2 is an entirely different story being tied together or trying to with Gen 1 and we have no real way of knowing the timing of either.

Both Gen 1 and 2 are from God and His work. Moreso even in chapter 2, but it is written as if there is no order.
Yet we are told 4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created,

I suppose a case can be made that God saw to it Gen 1 was orderly.... but let Moses not carry the same feel int 2.

I got to go before I burn the meatballs.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I noticed your signature.

When God was planning and predestined Jesus Christ to make man in His own Image and after His own likeness....

Did God have your personally "in mind". I believe your signature would require this.

" God knew the name of everyone who would accept the remedy so He knew who would accept. He knew not all would accept. Then there still is free will involved? YES!!!!!

Why?

I am not a predestined anyone that he would have me singled out for such a thing as salvation or given an important task to do.

Maybe this can better explain my feelings.

Redemption is not meant to be obvious. It is a test of vision, a challenge to awaken and seek Him. We are not meant to be passive spectators waiting for God to redeem with supernatural miracles. (Or by predestination) We are called to study His word, recognize the signs, and take part in the redemption He is revealing.
( This was borrowed from Israel365 Inspiration as it far better explains my beliefs then even I can myself)

As I said, in my free will thinking that God because of his foreknowledge knew those who would accept what faith had to offer
by their seeing and hearing and study and those people he knew/knows the names of.... Not just me. After all He is Our Heavenly Father,
Right?

Tomorrow, God willing I will change my signature to these thoughts from 365.

 

[praise_yeshua]

" God knew the name of everyone who would accept the remedy so He knew who would accept. He knew not all would accept. Then there still is free will involved? YES!!!!!

Why?

Prove it. Provide a reference to one single named man that was foreknown. Only Jesus Christ was foreknown. This nonsense that exists relative C.S. Lewis is preposterous. Why do you follow C.S. Lewis?

I am not a predestined anyone that he would have me singled out for such a thing as salvation or given an important task to do.

Maybe this can better explain my feelings.

Redemption is not meant to be obvious. It is a test of vision, a challenge to awaken and seek Him. We are not meant to be passive spectators waiting for God to redeem with supernatural miracles. (Or by predestination) We are called to study His word, recognize the signs, and take part in the redemption He is revealing.
( This was borrowed from Israel365 Inspiration as it far better explains my beliefs then even I can myself)

As I said, in my free will thinking that God because of his foreknowledge knew those who would accept what faith had to offer
by their seeing and hearing and study and those people he knew/knows the names of.... Not just me. After all He is Our Heavenly Father,
Right?

Tomorrow, God willing I will change my signature to these thoughts from 365.

I see inconsistencies in your position. I always have seen such in Anglicans and Arminians. C.S. Lewis began this concept that Eternity has already happened, thusly, God knows everything. It is preposterous.

Eternal things are without end.

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Eph 3:21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

God doesn't end. Not matter how you try to make the doctrine of C.S. Lewis your own, it is a failing position. It limits God. There is no end to God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I did. I used to fabricate window treatments and things for the home,,, as wwell as many a cornice board I constructed and installed my own work.

But right now this afternoon I have, aside from replies here, and elsewhere, attempted unsuccessfully to handle a printer problem at the same time because I need something printed from the printer and it is not happening today, during this time I was researching for a trip I am planning. So while I am posting here, and got one sentence I concurrently was looking up mileage from Forge Road to Lorton VA and pulling up what I could from HO about what may be wrong with the printer that once again went off line and today would not come back only to believe now it is verizons fault because HP said wifi direct has been temporarily deactivated because you wifi network is currently useing a restricted 5 Ghz cahnnel 132 (DFS).Because this channel is used by radar systems . WIFI Direct is unable to operate using this channel in the printer. And while all this is simultaneously going on and I am tryig to type one though while thinking about others like routes, and such my main laptop
screen went black while using . Then it came back and I turned away and when I turned back it was black again.

So you tell me about my thoughts and what sequence was there when 4 things were being thought at once.


But you do not have to have a systematic process to avoid chaos.


Ah, well,.... I wont fight you anymore... I am going to go make dinner now.

I'm going to break this apart. I appreciate you responding in detail but the responses are getting too long to my liking. If I miss something meaningful, please remind me.

I like debates. They solve problems. Calling it a "fight" doesn't bother me. That is what it is at times. A battle of words.

I'm an technology professional. I've meet very few people that were as good as I am at it. Not bragging. Just the truth. Not trying to gain any favor from saying it. WIFI direct error messages are often not meaningful. Happens all the time. You're getting the error within the context of operations where the actual error isn't considered. It is basically defaulting to the last error message that isn't meaningful. Happens all the time to programmers that don't know how to write a debugging process that can meaningful relate all error conditions. There are many reasons for this. I could name a few off the top of my heads but you're oversimplifying. Most everyone does.

While you have been "thinking" concurrently, you're actually acting sequentially. You might even try to pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time but you're really not doing it concurrently. Patting requires movement that isn't identical to rubbing. The demands of progression in varying motions even with identical hands, nerve impulses, and brain signals requires variance wherein they can not happen simultaneously. Even your mind is working sequentially.

Your mind thinks it is working concurrently. It isn't. You maybe faster than some but slower than others.

If you break this down to cause and effect. There is no effect/result without cause. All the variances in motion and etc doesn't matter. One must be before the other.

 

[atpollard]

I got to go before I burn the meatballs.

Definitely take care of the meatballs … far more important than arguing nuances of scripture that will likely lead nowhere.

 

[atpollard]

This I see as God being very orderly

Gen 1

In Gen 1

The First Day
3And God said, “Let there be light,

The Second Day
6And God said, “Let there be an expanse ~ 8God called the expanse “sky.”

The Third Day
9“Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, 10God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” 11Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation:

The Fourth Day
14And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky
16God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. And He made the stars as well.

The Fifth Day
20And God said, “Let the waters teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth

The Sixth Day
24And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds:

TO THIS POINT IT WAS ALL NICE AND ORDERLY.

light
sky
waters and dry land
vegetation
more light
waters with life and birds in the air
and living creatures for the earth

ORDERLY

AND THEN

26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness,
27male and female He created them.
28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth
29Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit contains seed. They will be yours for food
Show me the orderliness in Gen 2, picking up after the 7th day.
4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created,

5Now no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, nor had any plant, no man to cultivate the ground.

NOTE: IN GEN 1 EVERYTHING WAS MADE AND GROWING BEFORE GOD MADE MAN AND WOMAN. THE SEAS WERE STOCKED, THE BIRDS IN THE AIR WERE FLYING, THE BEASTS OF THE FIELD WERE MADE AND THEN CAME THE MAN AND THE WOMAN.

6 But springsc welled up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

STILL AT THIS POINT NOTHING IS GROWING, THERE ARE NO FISH BIRDS OR ANIMALS.

NOW
7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

AFTER THE MAN IS FORMED AND GOD BREATHED LIFE INTO HIM HE GOES AND PLANTS A GARDEN FOR THE MAN TO LIVE IN... NOT THE ENTIRE EARTH....

8And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, where He placed the man He had formed.

9 Out of the ground the LORD God gave growth to every tree that is pleasing to the eye and good for food. And in the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

AND THROUGH VERSE 10 THROUGH 14 WE HEAR OF THE RIVERS AND WHY THEY ARE SPECIAL

15Then the LORD God took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it.

BY HIMSELF

16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden,

17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil;

18The LORD God also said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make for him a suitable helper.”

19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and He brought them to the man to see what he would name each one. And whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

20 But for Adam no suitable helper was found.

21So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he slept, He took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the area with flesh.

22And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him

23And the man said:

“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’

IN GEN 1 WE HAD AN ORDERLY START TO THINGS WITH GOD MAKING MAN AND WOMAN AT THE END OF
ALL PLANT AND ANIMAL LIFE. THEY WERE TOLD TO GO CARE FOR IT AND THE EARTH AND TO MULTIPLY.

Feel free to completely ignore this, but I thought I would share a thought on Genesis 1.

Genesis 1 was not written to provide mankind with the first Astronomy, Planetology or Biology text book. It was created to serve a more important purpose. The first is a “polemic” (which means that Genesis 1 was written by God to directly attack all of the existing false narratives about “gods” and how things came to exist.

• As a quick illustration, EVERY other creation myths begins with a story about how the gods came to exist (a common theme involves some divine force as a primordial ‘water’ that creates the pantheon of gods). Genesis 1:1 begins with God as eternally existing, and without any other gods, and just in case there was any doubt about the place of God among the pagan myths, God hovers above the primordial water and commands it with a word! (and everything obeys God).

The second observation is that Genesis 1 is designed to teach us about HOW GOD WORKS (that we might understand WHO God is) more than what God did first, and what God did second.

• Observe the repeated pattern: first God separates/divides and in doing so, God creates room for something new. Then God creates something new to fill that void. The pattern is repeated: separate and create, separate and create, separate and create.
• Think for a moment of how this foreshadows HOW God will continue to function throughout the rest of the Bible narrative. God separates Noah’s family from the rest of fallen mankind, creating room to fill the earth. God separates “people” at Babel and scatters them to populate the four corners of the earth. God divides Abram from the rest of Mesopotamia and creates the people of the Middle East (including the line of Isaac and Jacob). God separates Israel as “His people”, then separates “Judah” as His tribe, then separates David as His king. Then Jesus comes to DIVIDE Israel (spiritual) from Jacob (fleshly) and multiplies and fills by grafting Jews and Gentiles into the “True Vine” (the family of God).
• However, we learned about God and how He works in Genesis 1. Which was more important than a Biology Text Book.

So just something to share. Think about it, or ignore it as you think best.
[It, too, is less important than the meatballs.]

 

[TibiasDad]

Not in the same sinse? So in what sense?

Slaves did not go to work and come home as we do today. Their activities were always under the auspices of their master’s direction. They couldn’t say “I’m off the clock and don’t have to listen to you!” They couldn’t go out and do anything they wanted to do.


Doug

 

[Presby02]

Slaves did not go to work and come home as we do today. Their activities were always under the auspices of their master’s direction. They couldn’t say “I’m off the clock and don’t have to listen to you!” They couldn’t go out and do anything they wanted to do.


Doug

Thats not what I said. Even prisoners today have free time to do as they wish. Lift weights and so on. Slave masters did not stand over them 24/7.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Prove it. Provide a reference to one single named man that was foreknown. Only Jesus Christ was foreknown. This nonsense that exists relative C.S. Lewis is preposterous. Why do you follow C.S. Lewis?

Lets start with Jeremiah, then gotta include Job in this, then what was it that was said by Jesus to his diciples... OH yea...

John 15: 16. You thinkk Jesus did not foreknow these people.... and what they would do?
16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Or that God the Father as Well as God the Son had no inkling about what direction Judas would play in unquestionably the most important role a human being ever did?

I see inconsistencies in your position.

I am consistent. You just do not understand me.

I always have seen such in Anglicans and Arminians. C.S. Lewis began this concept that Eternity has already happened, thusly, God knows everything. It is preposterous.

Eternal things are without end.

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Eph 3:21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

God doesn't end. Not matter how you try to make the doctrine of C.S. Lewis your own, it is a failing position. It limits God. There is no end to God.

Never once have I ever suggested such a heretic idea.

Eternal things, like Christ Jesus are also without beginning.

I have not limited God. either by time or ability.

And I owe you no more explanations or comments as you singular goal it to diminish my beliefs in the hopes I will cave to yours and bow down in awe.

It aint gonna happen

 

[FreeInChrist]

Feel free to completely ignore this, but I thought I would share a thought on Genesis 1.

Genesis 1 was not written to provide mankind with the first Astronomy, Planetology or Biology text book. It was created to serve a more important purpose. The first is a “polemic” (which means that Genesis 1 was written by God to directly attack all of the existing false narratives about “gods” and how things came to exist.

• As a quick illustration, EVERY other creation myths begins with a story about how the gods came to exist (a common theme involves some divine force as a primordial ‘water’ that creates the pantheon of gods). Genesis 1:1 begins with God as eternally existing, and without any other gods, and just in case there was any doubt about the place of God among the pagan myths, God hovers above the primordial water and commands it with a word! (and everything obeys God).

The second observation is that Genesis 1 is designed to teach us about HOW GOD WORKS (that we might understand WHO God is) more than what God did first, and what God did second.

• Observe the repeated pattern: first God separates/divides and in doing so, God creates room for something new. Then God creates something new to fill that void. The pattern is repeated: separate and create, separate and create, separate and create.
• Think for a moment of how this foreshadows HOW God will continue to function throughout the rest of the Bible narrative. God separates Noah’s family from the rest of fallen mankind, creating room to fill the earth. God separates “people” at Babel and scatters them to populate the four corners of the earth. God divides Abram from the rest of Mesopotamia and creates the people of the Middle East (including the line of Isaac and Jacob). God separates Israel as “His people”, then separates “Judah” as His tribe, then separates David as His king. Then Jesus comes to DIVIDE Israel (spiritual) from Jacob (fleshly) and multiplies and fills by grafting Jews and Gentiles into the “True Vine” (the family of God).
• However, we learned about God and how He works in Genesis 1. Which was more important than a Biology Text Book.

So just something to share. Think about it, or ignore it as you think best.
[It, too, is less important than the meatballs.]

I find your comments interesting and far more so then those in another forum who turn Gen 2 into a continuation of Gen 1.

You also said...

Definitely take care of the meatballs … far more important than arguing nuances of scripture that will likely lead nowhere.

As I was doing both at the same time...I was ignoring neither.

Te meatballs were good and I only dropped a small bite into my lap as I was typing last evening.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Lets start with Jeremiah, then gotta include Job in this, then what was it that was said by Jesus to his diciples... OH yea...

John 15: 16. You thinkk Jesus did not foreknow these people.... and what they would do?
16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Lets just do Jeremiah.....

Before Jeremiah was born, God chose him. Not before this world was every formed. BIG difference.

Remember Samuel? What did Samuel's mother do for Samuel?

Now, please correct your mistake. Jeremiah could have been replaced. So can anyone. Faith is generational. Abraham's faith lead Isaac to be chosen.

 

[praise_yeshua]

John 15: 16. You thinkk Jesus did not foreknow these people.... and what they would do?
16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Or that God the Father as Well as God the Son had no inkling about what direction Judas would play in unquestionably the most important role a human being ever did?

Judas is a good example of the bad theology you're embracing.

1. Jesus said that He chose Judas. Why are YOU, separating Judas? Judas was chosen from among the people. Not before the foundation of the world.
2. Peter was chosen from among the people, not before the foundation of the world.

I don't see any comparison. This is about Predestination isn't it?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Never once have I ever suggested such a heretic idea.

Eternal things, like Christ Jesus are also without beginning.

I have not limited God. either by time or ability.

And I owe you no more explanations or comments as you singular goal it to diminish my beliefs in the hopes I will cave to yours and bow down in awe.

It aint gonna happen

I have no other goal than to know the Truth and stand upon the Truth. I don't want you to bow to anything. Your position is right or it is wrong. A little leaven does what?

This conversation is about the worthiness of Jesus Christ. First in all things. The Glory and honor due Him is not dependent upon any of us. You and I included.

You are placing God's choices in yourself and others besides Jesus Christ. That is my issue.

C.S. Lewis began this modern theory that God sits outside of time and thusly is not subject to order. Which is what you're presenting..... though you don't realize you are.

So lets narrow this a little more.....

If all things God already exist so that God knows Himself and everything else that is created, then God is without doubt "quantifiable" in this "theory".

Since you say you reject this, then tell me how you're different?

 

[TibiasDad]

Thats not what I said. Even prisoners today have free time to do as they wish. Lift weights and so on. Slave masters did not stand over them 24/7.

But prison guards do…

Doug

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Exactly, thus there is no freedom for man to choose other than what God has planned. God’s plan and desire eliminates personal choice. The Reformed system had to redefine freedom sacrificing logic on its altar of paradox.

The slaves of the 1700 and 1800’s were not free to do anything that their owners didn’t want. The owners were sovereign and required their slaves to do their bidding. There was no freedom, that’s why they’re called slaves.

Doug

It eliminates choice and by definition would eliminate responsibility..

 

[civic]

It eliminates choice and by definition would eliminate responsibility..

ditto

 

[FreeInChrist]

Lets just do Jeremiah.....

Before Jeremiah was born, God chose him. Not before this world was every formed. BIG difference.

Prove it.

Remember Samuel? What did Samuel's mother do for Samuel?

You wanted to do Jerimiah. Stay there.

Now, please correct your mistake. Jeremiah could have been replaced. So can anyone. Faith is generational. Abraham's faith lead Isaac to be chosen.

Actually there is a possibility he was. Not replaced but in addition to that never made it into the Holy Book.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Prove it.

I did. Example. Samuel

Why in the world would you want to believe Jeremiah was chosen before the foundation of the world? Would you rather praise Jeremiah?

You wanted to do Jerimiah. Stay there.

Actually there is a possibility he was. Not replaced but in addition to that never made it into the Holy Book.

Ah. The "book"....Simple question relative to book..... Why does God need a book? Did God forget? Books aren't for God. Who are books for?

There's no book of names chosen before the foundation of the world. Prove it. The only book available is the writings of the Scriptures. Jesus Christ is the only Person named. Not you. Not I. Not anyone else.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Judas is a good example of the bad theology you're embracing.

1. Jesus said that He chose Judas. Why are YOU, separating Judas? Judas was chosen from among the people. Not before the foundation of the world.
2. Peter was chosen from among the people, not before the foundation of the world.

I don't see any comparison. This is about Predestination isn't it?

You have zero idea of who was chosen before the foundstiond of the eaaarth to fulfill God's plans.

Even you could not be so dense as to believe all that were lifted to greatness just happened randomly.

If you are a predestined believer then there would be little doubt about any of them because they all were in the plan.

But you seem to think only Jesus was....

I disagree. I disagree.

Jeramiah 1:5 states Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Galatians 1: 1;15-16 states
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Judas. Some say it was God's foreknowledge that Judas would betray Jesus. Not predestination yet other say he was... predestined.

So what of this foreknowledge idea?

Romans 8:29-30:
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Who did he call?
This passage explains that those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, indicating a divine plan for salvation and purpose.

Church of God International teaches To correctly understand these passages, it is essential that we understand that eternal life in the Kingdom of God is the proper destiny of every member of the human race! This does not mean that every individual will arrive at the destiny God has set before the human race. Rather, it means that God's purpose for humankind was established before the foundation of the world was laid, and that all who cooperate with Him will reach their proper destination. Hence, He "chose us [all who, through exercise of their divinely bestowed free will, accept His universal offer] in Him before the foundation of the world," and "predestined us [the whole race, potentially] to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ." Predestination, then, pertains to the purpose God had in mind when He decided to make creatures bearing His own image and likeness. It concerns the destination God established for the human race before He put humans on this planet.

Likewise, in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said: "He is the one who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not based on our works but on his own purpose and grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus before time began."

Ill stop now