Taking credit for your salvation

[TibiasDad]

Which is why "endure" is a more fitting choice of words. Paul is dealing with the dangers of idolatry. Idolatry can bring death.

And the trial is the constant temptation to replace God with other things. With every attempt to get us to choose something other than God, God provides the means of escaping that temptation and avoiding sinning against him.

Doug

 

[civic]

And the trial is the constant temptation to replace God with other things. With every attempt to get us to choose something other than God, God provides the means of escaping that temptation and avoiding sinning against him.

Doug

Otherwise 1 Cor 10:13 is a worthless and empty promise.

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Doctrinal statements are, by definition, an expression of belief about what the scriptures teach!

A believer is not incapable of doing good! Paul often commends his followers for the good they are doing, and often refers to them as holy or saints.

For example: Eph 1:
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus, a the faithful in Christ Jesus:…15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers.

Sounds like believers being holy and doing good to me.

Doug

Word parsing again.
I said very clearly that believers are not capable of doing good and sinning not.

The church at Ephesus?

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Sounds serious to me. Does a little leaven... leaven the entire to lump?

 

[praise_yeshua]

And the trial is the constant temptation to replace God with other things. With every attempt to get us to choose something other than God, God provides the means of escaping that temptation and avoiding sinning against him.

Doug

That is your false doctrine. Not many Christan actually build idols and literally get killed by God for doing so. The context is clear.
I mean seriously, you used Ephesus as a perfect example of holiness and they did exactly what you are saying this applies to here.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Otherwise 1 Cor 10:13 is a worthless and empty promise.

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

So you are claiming there isn't sins that require death? Does the text reference the destroyer?

You don't need to listen to Arminans. They are not your Master.

I appealed to the semantic range and etymology of the text.
Your strawman about "otherwise" is not viable. There is certainly meaning to the verse. Just not the one you prefer.

 

[Johann]

Word parsing again.
I said very clearly that believers are not capable of doing good and sinning not.

The church at Ephesus?

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Sounds serious to me. Does a little leaven... leaven the entire to lump?

Here is what I'm totally against-sinless perfection already obtained in THIS life-the Greek Grammar is against this teaching.
Just my input-and Rom 7 is a liberating passage to me, our brother Paul, as a chosen vessel-revealing what is going on IN the believer and many other passages-and perfect means "mature" as you well know @praise_yeshua
J.

 

[civic]

So you are claiming there isn't sins that require death? Does the text reference the destroyer?

You don't need to listen to Arminans. They are not your Master.

I appealed to the semantic range and etymology of the text.
Your strawman about "otherwise" is not viable. There is certainly meaning to the verse. Just not the one you prefer.

I never claimed that what I said is God provides a way to escape temptation when we are faced with sin.

 

[TibiasDad]

You insist that man can live above sin

I insist that Christ has set us free from the dominion of sin. (Rom 6:14) Therefore, the expectation that sinning should be stopped (Rom 6:1, 1 John 2:1, John 8:11) means that we have an obligation, not to sin by following the sinful nature, but rather to live by the Spirit. (Rom 8:12-13) Thus, our choice of direction is ours to make, and there is no necessity to sin, and we will receive the consequences of our choices.

We are able to choose not to sin; we are commanded not to sin; we are expected not to sin. Therefore, to not sin is the normal practice of a healthy believer. How can we be conformed to the image of Christ and yet continue to sin? (Rom 8:29)

To not insist that we live above sin is contrary to common sense, let alone Biblical teaching.


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

I insist that Christ has set us free from the dominion of sin. (Rom 6:14) Therefore, the expectation that sinning should be stopped (Rom 6:1, 1 John 2:1, John 8:11) means that we have an obligation, not to sin by following the sinful nature, but rather to live by the Spirit. (Rom 8:12-13) Thus, our choice of direction is ours to make, and there is no necessity to sin, and we will receive the consequences of our choices.

We are able to choose not to sin; we are commanded not to sin; we are expected not to sin. Therefore, to not sin is the normal practice of a healthy believer. How can we be conformed to the image of Christ and yet continue to sin? (Rom 8:29)

To not insist that we live above sin is contrary to common sense, let alone Biblical teaching.


Doug

You are surrounded by sin. You are always within the dominion of sin. You are are bound to the life filled with sin without your choice. If I had my choice, I wouldn't be in the very presence of sin. We have an inheritance that we haven't received. That inheritance is assured in Him/Christ. It is a reckoning beyond our own abilities.

You keep appealing to righteous actions that show you are still guilty. Surely you believe sin established your guilt. When you sin you are still guilty.

 

[TibiasDad]

Word parsing again.
I said very clearly that believers are not capable of doing good and sinning not.

The church at Ephesus?

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Sounds serious to me. Does a little leaven... leaven the entire to lump?

Rev 2:2I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

Sounds like they were doing something good. They were not without fault, and I have never said that Christians can’t sin or never sin. I have only claimed that that is not supposed to be the norm of Christian life.

You, on the other hand, you have “said very clearly that believers are not capable of doing good and sinning not.”

That is an absolute statement which is easily falsified. I’m not parsing words, or you would have demonstrated my error. Your evidence against me doesn’t contradict anything I have ever said, but my quotation above devastates your absolute claim.

I think your entire philosophy is based on your misinterpretation of the meaning of “flesh”. It makes Christ’s death ineffective and denies what scripture says clearly that he did.


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

Rev 2:2I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

Sounds like they were doing

Your argument doesn't allow leaving your first love. A little leaven leavens the entire lump? Do you really not believe this?

You have a problem. It is almost impossible for you to change because your position as pastor and teacher will not allow you to. It is a difficult thing to get someone in that position to admit they are wrong. You would have to admit that you were not speaking for God. I know because I've been right where you are.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Here is what I'm totally against-sinless perfection already obtained in THIS life-the Greek Grammar is against this teaching.
Just my input-and Rom 7 is a liberating passage to me, our brother Paul, as a chosen vessel-revealing what is going on IN the believer and many other passages-and perfect means "mature" as you well know @praise_yeshua
J.

It is more that just sinless perfection. It is the core of Arminian theological thought. You are correct. Even the mature, sin.

The core of their theology teaches that man can please God to the level of obtaining holiness.

We should have a discussion concerning holiness.

There is no holiness apart from the root being holy.

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Holiness comes from the root. Christ.

 

[Johann]

It is more that just sinless perfection. It is the core of Arminian theological thought. You are correct. Even the mature, sin.

The core of their theology teaches that man can please God to the level of obtaining holiness.

We should have a discussion concerning holiness.

There is no holiness apart from the root being holy.

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Holiness comes from the root. Christ.

Maybe it stems from the Wesleyan Holiness Movement and Pentecostalism? What about glossalia?
I have never in my life heard so many diverse teachings on some of the core doctrines we hold dear, and make no mistake, I don't have it "all together" but we have the Holy Spirit to discern error from truth.
Later brother.
J.

 

[TibiasDad]

Your argument doesn't allow leaving your first love. A little leaven leavens the entire lump? Do you really not believe this?

You have a problem. It is almost impossible for you to change because your position as pastor and teacher will not allow you to. It is a difficult thing to get someone in that position to admit they are wrong. You would have to admit that you were not speaking for God. I know because I've been right where you are.

Reread my response…I wasn’t finished answering you, but accidentally posted it.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

You have a problem. It is almost impossible for you to change because your position as pastor and teacher will not allow you to.

You do not, and cannot know me and I have many differences of opinion about things within my denomination. Quit assuming that you know me, or can understand me. I give scriptural arguments, and exegetical reasons for my conclusions.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Your argument doesn't allow leaving your first love.

Yes it does! Yours doesn’t allow me to not leave him!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Here is what I'm totally against-sinless perfection

I have never advocated for this or implied it. The ability to not sin does not preclude the ability to sin.

Why is it so hard to believe that the believer in Christ should be able to stop the sinful behavior of his former life? Why is a consistent level of godly behavior that continually grows as we mature in the faith an absurdity that cannot be attained when that is the biblical expectation and expressed goal.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

You are surrounded by sin. You are always within the dominion of sin. You are are bound to the life filled with sin without your choice.

The fact of the world being filled with and controlled by sin doesn’t mean that the believer is controlled by sin.

The believer is not dominated by sin any longer.

For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. (Rom 6:14 ESV)

The circumstances of our external environment does not necessitate our choices. Our internal environment does! Having been set free from the law of sin and death, we are empowered by the Spirit to say “ “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.” (Titus 2:12)

I have no choice in being in this world, but being in this world does not necessitate my choices or take away my choice.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

That is your false doctrine.

You have not even tried to falsify, much less falsified anything I have said! Saying it is false doctrine doesn’t mean it is!

Not many Christan actually build idols and literally get killed by God for doing so. The context is clear.

Who said that they did?

I mean seriously, you used Ephesus as a perfect example of holiness and they did exactly what you are saying this applies to here.

Paul called them God’s holy people:

To God’s holy people in Ephesus, a the faithful in Christ Jesus: (Eph 1:1)

Are you calling Paul false?


Doug

 

[Rockson]

You are surrounded by sin. You are always within the dominion of sin.

With all due respect PY so what? When you're in an airplane at 30,000 ft you're still surrounded outside the plane by gravity. So just why is it that you don't just fall out of the sky. You know the answer to that. It's because you're applying other principles which cause you to transcend about gravity. Same as with the walk in the Spirit. Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. SHALL NOT.

You are are bound to the life filled with sin without your choice.

I am bound if you want to say it that way to a life where I can see sin working in the lives of others. That doesn't mean my life is filled with sin any more than if 10 people were rolling in the mud yards around me. Doesn't mean I am.

If I had my choice, I wouldn't be in the very presence of sin.

Sorry PY but a born again child of God isn't in the presence of sin in the way that you're saying it.