praise_yeshua
Well-known member
How about repeating yourself again. Here.....
I say hello and then you can copy and paste what you said before....
Hi Tom..... (go)....
Taking credit for your salvation
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
How about repeating yourself again. Here.....
I say hello and then you can copy and paste what you said before....
Hi Tom..... (go)....
You're not exactly addressing what was stated, are you?
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Well PY, you are welcome to your opinion, but there is nothing about your claims regarding me that is even remotely true.
I will end my part in this discussion by stating exactly my position so that there is no confusion on your part.
1) Christ has set the believer free from the power of sin and death, which means that sin no longer has dominion over us.
2) Therefore, we have the capacity to not live according to the sinful nature, and can choose to either live according to the sinful nature or according to the Spirit.
3) All men, believers or not, are peccable in this life, and therefore are capable of sinning.
4) So while the believer has the capacity to not sin, it is not an automatic response. He must choose whom he will listen and follow. He is still capable of sinning, but it is not ever a necessity.
Scripture is unequivocal in its stand on the expectation of the healthy Christian life; a) The command is to not sin! (1 John 2:1, Romans 6:1, John 8:11g b) We are capable of fully meeting the requirements of the law. (Rom 8:1-4) c) we can choose the follow either the sinful nature or the Spirit, (but are not obligated to the sinful nature) and will reap the results of that choice: follow the sinful nature you will die, or follow the Spirit and live. (Rom 8:12-13)
Doug
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Rockson
Well-known member
I like the Heb 12:14 verse which says the same but the first part of the verse I think we can agree is equally important.
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Heb 12:14
Seeing he adds on about the root of bitterness springing up troubling you and people becoming defied tells us the following PEACE part is of equal importance as the holiness part. In fact the seeking peace is a part of holiness.....a very important part. It's just I grew up in Christian circles hearing like a mantra, without holiness no man shall see the Lord but they didn't add the first part about seeking peace. I've pondered that perhaps one of the most hardest thing it seems that Christians struggle to do is the one word ENDEAVOR. We are to ENDEAVOR to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:3 To endeavor means one has to work at it. To endeavor means it's not always going to be easy. To endeavor means we're not going to use hyperbolic language to make some disagreements like making a mountain out of a mole hill and cause an unnecessary rift among brethren.
I'd suggest we need to be extremely cautious I mean extremely watchful that our discussing scripture doesn't gravitate to just truly being or becoming in God's sight a biting and devouring work of the flesh. Such could be considered I think one of the most deceptive traps of the enemy he sets. Get God's own people into unjustified wrath or anger towards their brethren using God's word no less in thinking they're doing God a favor. We could enter a place of thinking are but not knowing what Spirit we're of. I encourage one and all that none of us make that mistake.
Sometimes one's lack discernment in regard to just what subject matter must need to be stood up for as compared to other areas of thought where we just hold back our powder and seek to more lovingly appeal for another to change their position realizing that good men or brethren just may not be at the place of seeing a particular truth or freedom that we have In Christ. Perhaps that will come in time and we pray like Paul that the eyes of the understanding of the body of Christ will be opened....to understand the truth more adequately. I think we saw that with Priscilla and Aquila who heard Apollos speak and invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately. He chose with meekness to hear the word of God . May each one of us ourselves seek to do the same. We may actually need to do that more than we think. God Bless and PEACE.
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You ignoring most everything I've said to repeat yourself. You insisted upon not dealing with any other Scripture except what you insist upon focusing upon.
I have answered you many times now. How much further do you want to double down on what you insist upon talking about while ignoring what I've said?
Prove Ezekial 36:27 is complete right now. Go for it.
We wait for Ezekial 36:27 to be completed in us.
Maybe you should read the Scriptures again
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
I no. I no. You're not waiting are you. You've arrived.
When is your adoption taking place? Is it finalized?
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
How nice of you. You're certainly not meeting your own requirement of others. You say but do not just like everyone else.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
This is a doctrinal statement. It is not what the Scriptures teach.
You insist that man can live above sin when he incapable of doing good.... and sinning not. It is useless double talk.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
The same man faced down Peter. The same man threatened to "not spare" in his 4th episode to Corinth. Yes. There are more epistles to Corinth.I like the Heb 12:14 verse which says the same but the first part of the verse I think we can agree is equally important.
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Heb 12:14
Seeing he adds on about the root of bitterness springing up troubling you and people becoming defied tells us the following PEACE part is of equal importance as the holiness part. In fact the seeking peace is a part of holiness.....a very important part. It's just I grew up in Christian circles hearing like a mantra, without holiness no man shall see the Lord but they didn't add the first part about seeking peace. I've pondered that perhaps one of the most hardest thing it seems that Christians struggle to do is the one word ENDEAVOR. We are to ENDEAVOR to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:3 To endeavor means one has to work at it. To endeavor means it's not always going to be easy. To endeavor means we're not going to use hyperbolic language to make some disagreements like making a mountain out of a mole hill and cause an unnecessary rift among brethren.
I'd suggest we need to be extremely cautious I mean extremely watchful that our discussing scripture doesn't gravitate to just truly being or becoming in God's sight a biting and devouring work of the flesh. Such could be considered I think one of the most deceptive traps of the enemy he sets. Get God's own people into unjustified wrath or anger towards their brethren using God's word no less in thinking they're doing God a favor. We could enter a place of thinking are but not knowing what Spirit we're of. I encourage one and all that none of us make that mistake.
Sometimes one's lack discernment in regard to just what subject matter must need to be stood up for as compared to other areas of thought where we just hold back our powder and seek to more lovingly appeal for another to change their position realizing that good men or brethren just may not be at the place of seeing a particular truth or freedom that we have In Christ. Perhaps that will come in time and we pray like Paul that the eyes of the understanding of the body of Christ will be opened....to understand the truth more adequately. I think we saw that with Priscilla and Aquila who heard Apollos speak and invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately. He chose with meekness to hear the word of God . May each one of us ourselves seek to do the same. We may actually need to do that more than we think. God Bless and PEACE.
My problem is with false doctrine and hypocrisy. If the Truth causes division and it does, then so be it. All you give as good as you get. I do too. We are alike in this flesh we live in.
Does a little leaven.... Leaven the entire lump?
If a little leaven robs me of holiness, then I have no hope. Just cast me out to the dogs...
Do you remember when Jesus called a women an ole dirty Gentile dog in Mark 7?
Did Jesus tell her something she couldn't accomplish herself? Yes. He did. She respond in hope.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Rockson
Well-known member
With all due respect PY I think you're overlooking something major here. No body is saying we can do good or the righteousness of God in and of ourselves. But we're not just ourselves. Paul stated,
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2:20
That's faith in the Son of God that he is living his life through us by the power of the Holy Spirit. And the Bible says that No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. 1 Cor 10:13
That's made available to us and there's no time it is not. So there's our God has provided the way to not yield to sin right? He said there is NO temptation that we can't as we apply the walk of faith in the Son of God that we can't rise above.....
Please really give that some thought and consideration and God Bless.
Rockson
Well-known member
Peter through his actions was leaving the impression the Gentiles couldn't be saved unless they were circumsized . That's a far higher magnitude of a thing I'd suggest to you then dear precious brethren believing in the grace of God that in Christ he'll give them victory over sin. No offence but quite frankly I can't imagine why you are not acknowledging this yourself. I trust and hope you'll make a change about this.
What you have been speaking about is what you experience. However we are not to judge the word of God by our experience but our experiences by the word of God
You have reversed sound practice
And you do not exegete scripture
You either believe what it states or you don't
Romans 8:1–13 (NASB 2020) — 1 Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brothers and sisters, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—13 for if you are living in accord with the flesh, you are going to die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Ezekiel 36:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 And I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes, and are careful and follow My ordinances.
I have posted three passages of scripture supporting what I stated and have no intention of discussing anything else until you can address those verses and show they are consistent with your view
One should not try to understand scriptural truth based on personal experience.
Behold
Well-known member
If Jesus came into the world to save sinners, then why would God later need you to be faithful, when in fact God saved you while you were "all have sinned"
You weren't faithful or obedient before God saved you.. .so, its LEGALISM, and self righteousness that now says....."OK now here is MY PART"
There is no "your part", there is only God's Salvation, that is a Gift., that you receive, or you dont.
The reason that Salvation is eternal is because its based on the faithfulness of the One who died on The Cross so that we could receive God's salvation as "The GIFT of Salvation".
There is no contract with God, whereby we have to make certain promises to do this, and do that, later on, and THEN God will save us.
God does not require anything of any SINNER, to save them, and keep them saved except for the Faith in Christ that releases God to save you, based on the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
So you don't believe there are those who abandon Christianity over such teachings? Do I believe those that abandon Christianity over false doctrine such this are rejected by God? Joyce Myers for example. She has robbed God's children of their livelihoods through the good name of God. Do you think I want her to scream in agony as the flames endless burn away at her flesh? NO.... NEVER.... As much as she is wrong, I have no means to judge her different than I must judge myself.
Arminian set requirements for fellowship with God that can not be lived by anyone. They don't live it but they preach the requirement to for others to live it to be in fellowship with God.
I know. I lived it myself when I was raised an Arminian. This doctrine I was taught made me believe I had to earn the fellowship of God. I believe Salvation was earning the approval of God. I know these facts are difficult for an Arminian to accept but they are absolutely true. I didn't know what the Gospel of the Grace of God was because I was taught that Repentance was simply me changing my mind about God. Which is true to certainly degree but this does not make a person realize just how sinful he is. This is why you and others can't accept the fact that you will never live above sin this life. You can't. Your flesh is incapable of living a 100 percent reliable life to your own standards of living.
This all started when I made the statement that I have a "low threshold for salvation". I told the truth because I know the Scriptures. I don't want anyone to go to hell. Paul murdered countless Christians and enjoyed doing it. Relative to justice and righteousness, he should have been tied to a stump and covered in honey in the middle of an Amazonian forest. The idea he could ever earn fellowship with God is contrary any common sense. Paul stole the life of Stephen from this world. He stole the loving fellowship and influence of loving Christians from this world.
There is no "making up" for such things. There is no "paying our debt". We should try but even the Spirit of God is confined and exposed to this world through our flesh. He had a goal that he never reached. He didn't want to be a castaway to his fellowman. He never pretended he was anything other than just like his fellowman in need of the Grace of God.
That message makes a difference in peoples lives. Trying to establish fellowship via compliance to your preferred view of what a Christian is, doesn't really add up to anything. Nor does it mine view.
I have hope that with all these false doctrines around us steering men... that the smallest faith is what makes the difference in an individuals life.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Like....
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I'm not going to respond to what I have dealt with multiple times. I asked that you do your own work by providing the semantic range of your argument. If you do, then you will realize that there is no absolute in your arguments.
As I have stated before, Ezekiel 36:27 isn't completed yet.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body
That "law" you claim you have isn't changing you like you claim it does. You're proof that our redemption isn't complete. The Scriptures are proof that our redemption isn't complete.
Our redemption isn't complete until we are all joined together in Christ.
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Can you focus upon "live in the flesh".
Even when we "live in the Spirit", it comes out in this world "through the flesh".
What if you get dementia or some genetic disease that renders you incapable of pleasing God? What if you literally lose your mind and end up in mental ward where you endless blaspheme the name of God and never ask God for forgiveness again. @civic (I'm certain you see many of these things throughout your life).... I've seen it myself.
Can we expect God to have mercy or to judge us based upon our debt payment?
Did Christ fail temptation? Have you failed temptation? Christ never failed and you have. I have. Paul did.
I believe you are extending the words of Paul beyond their intended meaning. Christ does live in us. I've never denied this. What I have repeatedly said is that you can not live this life in the flesh without sinning. You will sin more before you leave this world. If you permanently live a life without sin, then you wouldn't need your body to be changed.
We are not without our body. There is no scenario where our body doesn't affect our actions. When Paul went to do good, evil was present with him.
Can we escape temptation? Why certainly. There are times you can and there are times you can't. Is there always an alternative "route of escape"? It depends upon the circumstances. You should not see absolutes in words such as this because of their huge semantic range in Greek.
Thank you! I have given it extensive thought and consideration for many years. I appreciate your challenge here. I have revisited it now.
Can you check out ἔκβασις for me? Notice the broad semantic range
If you go back further into the ancient Greek sometimes used in the Greek OT, you will find a much broader sense of meaning relative to etymology.
I believe the NET edition is closer here than most any translation.
1Co 10:13 No trial has overtaken you that is not faced by others. And God is faithful: He will not let you be tried beyond what you are able to bear, but with the trial will also provide a way out so that you may be able to endure it.
Also the context of the verse is actually death relative to idolatry.
1Co 10:9 And let us not put Christ to the test, as some of them did, and were destroyed by snakes.
1Co 10:10 And do not complain, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroying angel.
1Co 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
1Co 10:12 So let the one who thinks he is standing be careful that he does not fall.
1Co 10:13 No trial has overtaken you that is not faced by others. And God is faithful: He will not let you be tried beyond what you are able to bear, but with the trial will also provide a way out so that you may be able to endure it.
1Co 10:14 So then, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.
Which is why "endure" is a more fitting choice of words. Paul is dealing with the dangers of idolatry. Idolatry can bring death.
There are sins to death. Then there are sins that are not so impactful. Not saying all sins doesn't show our guilt. They do.
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TibiasDad
Well-known member
Doctrinal statements are, by definition, an expression of belief about what the scriptures teach!
A believer is not incapable of doing good! Paul often commends his followers for the good they are doing, and often refers to them as holy or saints.
For example: Eph 1:
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus, a the faithful in Christ Jesus:…15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers.
Sounds like believers being holy and doing good to me.
Doug
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Feel free to elaborate, PY, what do I say but don’t do? What requirements do I have for others that I don’t do.
You don’t appear to be able to respond with a scripturally coherent answer to our scriptural arguments.
Doug
