Sealed by the baptism en the Holy Ghost

[Eternally-Grateful]

Your OPINION is noted. Thanks.

well you have not proven me wrong. so my opinion stands

Paul does not define faith. The Hebrew writer does (as evidence of what is unseen and substance of what is hoped for), and James defines it as having the spirit of actions that gives life, just as the spirit gives man gives life to his body. Paul uses the term frequently, but he does not define it, so studying him to discover what faith is brings no result.

Actually yes paul does. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen (many believe Paul wrote hebrews)

even if you do not believe this.

Paul said faith is not of works

in fact, he said faith and works do not mix.. he said if abraham was found by works, he has something to boast about.

If we try to work for it, we are trying to earn a wage and reject grace.

but hey, just study paul. don't take my word for it.

 

[Doug Brents]

well you have not proven me wrong. so my opinion stands

Opinions are worth less than the air it takes to speak them, or the ink it takes to write them. Stand on your paper tiger, lol.

Actually yes paul does. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen (many believe Paul wrote hebrews)

Many do, but that is not really known, so I do not claim it.
And I already said that Hebrews defines faith thusly.

even if you do not believe this.

Paul said faith is not of works

No. He said faith is not works of the Law. There are works that are part of faith, as is evidenced by Paul's statement that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord with the mouth RESULTS in receiving salvation. So much for "no works in faith"

in fact, he said faith and works do not mix.. he said if abraham was found by works, he has something to boast about.

If we try to work for it, we are trying to earn a wage and reject grace.

but hey, just study paul. don't take my word for it.

I have studied Paul. And he says that it is: in baptism that we die to sin (Rom 6:2-3), in baptism we are clothed with Christ and adopted as God's children (Gal 3:26-27), in baptism we are resurrected with Christ (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12), in baptism we are washed clean of all stains, spots, and blemishes (Eph 5:26-27).

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Opinions are worth less than the air it takes to speak them, or the ink it takes to write them. Stand on your paper tiger, lol.

same goes to you.. Your opinion is no better than mine, lets stick to the word

Many do, but that is not really known, so I do not claim it.
And I already said that Hebrews defines faith thusly.

Paul claims what it is also. it is NOT OF WORKS.

No. He said faith is not works of the Law. There are works that are part of faith, as is evidenced by Paul's statement that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord with the mouth RESULTS in receiving salvation. So much for "no works in faith"

No he did not say this except in galations..

I have studied Paul. And he says that it is: in baptism that we die to sin (Rom 6:2-3), in baptism we are clothed with Christ and adopted as God's children (Gal 3:26-27), in baptism we are resurrected with Christ (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12), in baptism we are washed clean of all stains, spots, and blemishes (Eph 5:26-27).

If you studied paul you would not preach what you do..

Paul rejects your gospel of works. and he preached against it

 

[Doug Brents]

same goes to you.. Your opinion is no better than mine, lets stick to the word

I have not stated any opinions that I did not note as such.

Paul claims what it is also. it is NOT OF WORKS.

It is not of works of the Law, not just any works. It is obvious that there are some works that ARE required.

No he did not say this except in galations..

If he said it in Galatians, then it is Scripture from God, and so is true.
But he also said it in Romans 3:20.

If you studied paul you would not preach what you do..

Paul rejects your gospel of works. and he preached against it

Paul rejected works of the Law, but he advocated works of faith. He understood that there were some actions that are required to receive God's gift of salvation. That is why he wrote what he did about baptism in so many of his letters, and about confession of Jesus as Lord in Rom 10 stressing that it is absolutely a physical action because it must be done "with the mouth" (not just a mental image, or a thought running through one's head/heart).

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I have not stated any opinions that I did not note as such.

nor did I.

It is not of works of the Law, not just any works. It is obvious that there are some works that ARE required.

Its not of works period.

the wage of sin is death, not your feeble works,

If he said it in Galatians, then it is Scripture from God, and so is true.
But he also said it in Romans 3:20.

eph 2,
romans 4, 9, 11
2 timothy 1
titus 3

works of any type. works of the law are not in context in any of these passages

Paul rejected works of the Law, but he advocated works of faith. He understood that there were some actions that are required to receive God's gift of salvation. That is why he wrote what he did about baptism in so many of his letters, and about confession of Jesus as Lord in Rom 10 stressing that it is absolutely a physical action because it must be done "with the mouth" (not just a mental image, or a thought running through one's head/heart).

Actually he advocates all works.

Just not as a means of salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

nor did I.

It is your opinion that James is only talking to those who "say they have faith". That is not stated, nor is it supported by the Scripture. So it is your opinion, and will be treated as such.

eph 2,
romans 4, 9, 11
2 timothy 1
titus 3

works of any type. works of the law are not in context in any of these passages

Clearly not, because these passages cannot contradict other passages of Scripture. So when Paul says that the physical action of confessing with the mouth that Jesus is Lord RESULTS IN receiving salvation, he is not contradicting any of these passages. He is making the distinction between works of the Law (works of merit, work to earn) and works of faith (works of obedience, works of acceptance). If you work to earn God's approval, you will never receive it. But if you work because He commanded it as your duty to Him because He is Lord, then you receive His gifts overflowing.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It is your opinion that James is only talking to those who "say they have faith".

No. James said, what does it profit one if they say they have faith

James said it. Not me

That is not stated, nor is it supported by the Scripture. So it is your opinion, and will be treated as such.

Yet I just posted the words.

dude, You just proved you are led by your belief and not the word. I will move on. If you can not listen to the word.. then I can not help you only God can

 

[Doug Brents]

No. James said, what does it profit one if they say they have faith

James said it. Not me

James is talking ABOUT those who say that. He is not talking TO someone who says that. He is talking directly TO the 12 dispersed tribes of Israel, and through them TO all of us who are in Christ and all of those who may someday be joined to Christ.

Yet I just posted the words.

You posted the words, and your interpretation of them. Psalm 14:1 says, "there is no God." Now, if we just take that phrase, then we get a distorted view of what Scripture says, which is, "A fool says in his heart there is no God". This is what you are doing with James 2:14. You skipped over part of that verse: "What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith..." He is talking TO the brothers and sisters, ABOUT those who might say this.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

James is talking ABOUT those who say that. He is not talking TO someone who says that. He is talking directly TO the 12 dispersed tribes of Israel, and through them TO all of us who are in Christ and all of those who may someday be joined to Christ.

You keep hurting yourself because you do not look before you post

Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith bymy works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

again, good day

 

[dwight92070]

None of those verses negates or invalidates the verses that include repentance, confession, or baptism together with faith as conditions necessary for salvation. That you would think they do reveals your extreme ignorance of the New Testament.

There are NO verses that make confession and baptism necessary for salvation - so you reveal your ignorance of scripture.

 

[dwight92070]

Doug said: "Certainly one can be filled with the Holy Spirit's power, wisdom, experience, etc. but not be indwelt by Him."

Not in the New Covenant. Being filled with the Holy Spirit's power is a reference to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only believers can receive that, those who already have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Doug said: "Certainly one can be filled with the Holy Spirit's power, wisdom, experience, etc. but not be indwelt by Him."

Not in the New Covenant. Being filled with the Holy Spirit's power is a reference to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only believers can receive that, those who already have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

baptism of spirit precedes anointing of the spirit

If one is not washed, the HS can not come in

 

[TomL]

I deny none of those passages, but I put the events in them in their proper order. The Gentiles received empowerment from the Spirit before they demonstrated faith by which they received salvation. Notice in Acts 15 that verses 8 and 9 are completely separate sentences. They are completely separate because they are talking about two different events. God testified to the Gentiles by giving them empowerment through the Spirit. And then He united the Gentiles with the Jews by cleansing their hearts THROUGH FAITH. They did not exhibit faith sitting in the room while Peter spoke. They did not exhibit faith by the Spirit falling on them. They exhibited faith by obeying Peter's command to be baptized in water which is where they received forgiveness of sin. This is when the Spirit moved from simply empowering them to indwelling their hearts.

Sorry you are ignoring them all, and even contradict yourself multiple times.

Scripture does not state they received only empowerment.

That is your theology speaking which ignores the following.

Acts 10:45–47 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”

They received the Spirit, a phrase which is used to indicate the indwelling of the spirit

Where did you address that fact seen below

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

You didn't

They received the gift of the Spirit

the gift of the Holy Spirit which your theology holds is salvational in

Acts 2:37–38 (LEB) — 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “What should we do, men and brothers?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

You did not address that either

They were baptized en the Spirit

Acts 11:14–16 (LEB) — 14 who will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Which you and scripture indicated as saving

1 Corinthians 12:13 — 13 For en one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free persons, and all were made to drink one Spirit.

Yet another passage you do not address and you have even contradicted yourself.

They had their heart purified by faith

Acts 15:8–10 (LEB) — 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 So now why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

a purification which is accompanied by the giving of the Spirit a term indicating the indwelling of the Spirit

Ezekiel 36:26–27 (LEB) — 26 And I will give a new heart to you, and a new spirit I will give into your inner parts, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will give my spirit into your inner parts, and I will make it so that you will go in my rules, and my regulations you will remember, and you will do them.

Still yet another argument you do not address

In fact You offer only a bald denial of multiple verses of scripture.

 

[TomL]

None of those verses negates or invalidates the verses that include repentance, confession, or baptism together with faith as conditions necessary for salvation. That you would think they do reveals your extreme ignorance of the New Testament.

um faith results in salvation

John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

John 3:36 (LEB) — 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life—but the wrath of God remains on him.

 

[Doug Brents]

Not in the New Covenant. Being filled with the Holy Spirit's power is a reference to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only believers can receive that, those who already have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

That is your assumption. It does not reflect Biblical truth.

 

[dwight92070]

Your OPINION is noted. Thanks.

Paul does not define faith. The Hebrew writer does (as evidence of what is unseen and substance of what is hoped for), and James defines it as having the spirit of actions that gives life, just as the spirit gives man gives life to his body. Paul uses the term frequently, but he does not define it, so studying him to discover what faith is brings no result.

Doug said: Paul uses the term frequently, but he does not define it, so studying him to discover what faith is brings no result.

What an ignorant thing to say. By the way, James does not define faith either. Yes, he says faith without works is dead, but that does not define faith. Even Jesus did not define faith.

So who is studying Paul to learn what faith is? No one that I know of.

Jesus obviously assumes that the man of normal intelligence knows what faith is, as does the Bible itself. Faith is to put trust or belief in some one or some thing. Hebrews defines it in more detail, but it's essentially the same thing.

However, faith in God, according to Hebrews, adds a new dimension:

"And without faith it is impossible to please (God), for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

Did you notice, faith in God does not require baptism or confession or any other work? It ONLY requires BELIEF in two things - that God exists and that He will reward any who seek Him - some call that "mental assent", although the Bible does not call it that. That term belittles and dishonors God and Jesus and His sacrifice for us.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Sorry, but the Holy Spirit being in you does not rob him of his power.

Silly comment!!! Nothing "robs the Holy Spirit of His power". Especially not "Man's theology".

According to Jesus, the Holy SPirit has ALWAYS been WITH people, and occasionally enabling them to manifest miraculous occurrences.

BUT: The Holy Spirit did NOT INDWELL people until after Calvary, when the PROMISE OF SALVATION finally became experimentally REAL in actual fact. (John 14:17)

 

[dwight92070]

James 1:18 "In the exercise of His will He BROUGHT US FORTH BY THE WORD OF TRUTH, ..."

So we were born again by the word of the gospel - NOT by confession and NOT by baptism.

James 1:21 " ... in humility RECEIVE THE WORD IMPLANTED, WHICH IS ABLE TO SAVE YOUR SOULS."

So the word of the gospel is planted in our hearts and then our souls are saved - NOT by confession and NOT by baptism.

 

[TomL]

Silly comment!!! Nothing "robs the Holy Spirit of His power". Especially not "Man's theology".

According to Jesus, the Holy SPirit has ALWAYS been WITH people, and occasionally enabling them to manifest miraculous occurrences.

BUT: The Holy Spirit did NOT INDWELL people until after Calvary, when the PROMISE OF SALVATION finally became experimentally REAL in actual fact. (John 14:17)

Um it was your silly comment previously suggesting the Holy Spirit being in one somehow cannot manifest power to perform a miracle.

 

[mailmandan]

nor did I.

Its not of works period.

the wage of sin is death, not your feeble works,

eph 2,
romans 4, 9, 11
2 timothy 1
titus 3

works of any type. works of the law are not in context in any of these passages

Actually he advocates all works.

Just not as a means of salvation.

Yes, Paul covered works in general - God imputes righteousness apart from works (Romans 4:6) saved by grace through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2:8,9) not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5) God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (2 Timothy 1:9). Works-salvationists will try to spin the truth and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works/works of faith/works of obedience etc..) but just not "those" works (works of the law) but that argument is bogus.

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, one cannot dissect good works from the law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Good works in general cannot be "detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

*NOWHERE does the Bible teach that we are saved by grace through faith "plus works" of any kind.