Sealed by the baptism en the Holy Ghost

[Jim]

when we place baptism above circumcision. as salvation by the hands of men, we are in serious danger.

Then you should not, as you apparently do, place baptism above, or even alongside, circumcision.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Then you should not, as you apparently do, place baptism above, or even alongside, circumcision.

I am not

those who claim it is required to be saved do..

 

[Doug Brents]

One can be filled with the Holy Spirit but He doesn't indwell them?
That's false.

Certainly one can be filled with the Holy Spirit's power, wisdom, experience, etc. but not be indwelt by Him. The indwelling of the Spirit is a NT era gift that the OT saints did not have. It was completely new to the NT saints, and was unheard of in the OT.

 

[Fred]

Certainly one can be filled with the Holy Spirit's power, wisdom, experience, etc. but not be indwelt by Him.

You haven't provided any proof for this.

The indwelling of the Spirit is a NT era gift that the OT saints did not have. It was completely new to the NT saints, and was unheard of in the OT.

See my comment above.


When did Paul initially have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Doug Brents]

Faith does not require anything

James 2:26 - faith without action is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead. - faith requires action.

Faith is the power behind obedience. You obey because you trust. You do not obey so you can trust. you have it back wards

Trust is in the action. If you don't act, then you don't really trust.

It is not watered down grace. it is not grace at all
if it is grace it is no longer works, otherwise grace is no longer grace
grace plus works = works

There is a difference between actions in order to earn something and actions in trust. If you do good things in order to earn salvation, you will never receive it. But if you do the things that God commanded that He said lead to receiving His gift, then you receive His gift. If you do not do what He commanded, then you do not receive His gift.

 

[Doug Brents]

When did Paul initially have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

When he was baptized into Christ after Ananias told him to get up and be baptized and wash away his sins (Acts 22:16).

 

[Jim]

I am not

those who claim it is required to be saved do..

Just curious - what do you think the water in John 3:5 refers too. I am not interested in debating the issue, but I would just like to know your answer.

 

[Jim]

When he was baptized into Christ after Ananias told him to get up and be baptized and wash away his sins (Acts 22:16).

AMEN!! One cannot be saved and still need to have his sins wash away, i.e., have his sins forgiven. And on cannot have the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit and still not be justified.

 

[Fred]

When he was baptized into Christ after Ananias told him to get up and be baptized and wash away his sins (Acts 22:16).

Great, because this initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit by Paul is equally described as him being "filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 9:17).

Thus, when Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him were filled with the Holy Spirit (= having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) they became part of the NT church before their water baptism (Acts 11:17; 15:8; cf. Acts 2:4).

 

[Fred]

And on cannot have the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit and still not be justified.

To possess the gift of the Holy Spirit is to have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/eli-insurance-policy.589/page-3#post-25287

 

[Doug Brents]

Great, because this initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit by Paul is equally described as him being "filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 9:17).

Indeed. But you seem to think that every time that phrase is used that it always means the same thing. It does not. You have to look at the context to see what that phrase is referring to. In some cases it does indeed indicate the indwelling of the Spirit. In other cases it refers to the empowerment of the Spirit. And in some cases it refers to both.

Thus, when Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him were filled with the Holy Spirit (= having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) they became part of the NT church before their water baptism (Acts 11:17; 15:8; cf. Acts 2:4).

This is one of the cases where this phrase refers to the empowerment of the Spirit only. These Gentiles were not indwelt by the Spirit until they were baptized into Christ and had their sins removed in water baptism shortly after He fell on them in power.

 

[Fred]

Indeed. But you seem to think that every time that phrase is used that it always means the same thing. It does not. You have to look at the context to see what that phrase is referring to. In some cases it does indeed indicate the indwelling of the Spirit. In other cases it refers to the empowerment of the Spirit. And in some cases it refers to both.

No proof given.

Typical.

This is one of the cases where this phrase refers to the empowerment of the Spirit only. These Gentiles were not indwelt by the Spirit until they were baptized into Christ and had their sins removed in water baptism shortly after He fell on them in power.

See my first comment.



1. In Acts 11:17 (cf. 15:8) Peter describes their reception of the Holy Spirit as the "same gift" with what took place in Acts 2:4 (cf. Acts 1:5).

2. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDTT)
What until Pentecost, the decisive date for the universal church, was the privilege of only a few individuals, is from that day forward the most important characteristic of the Jewish and subsequently (cf. Acts 10) the Gentile church. According to Acts 2:4 all were "filled with the Spirit"...To be filled with the power of the Spirit means to "live by the Spirit" (Gal. 5:25), or to be "in Christ", to "have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:16), and thus to have the fullness of the gifts of grace flow through one as a member of the body of Christ.
(1:739, Fullness)

3. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT)Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT):
Expressions like mantis, chrēsmologos, mainomai and enthousiasmos are not used for Chr. prophecy. This does not mean that NT prophets did not have ecstatic experiences. That they did may be deduced from the narratives in Ac. which speak of believers being filled with the Spirit, Ac. Ac. 2:4, 17; 4:31; 10:44 ff.; 11:15; 19:6 (6:851, prophētēs, Friedrich).

The boldface above is mine.

It is so easy to refute your false doctrine.

 

[Doug Brents]

1. In Acts 11:17 (cf. 15:8) Peter describes their reception of the Holy Spirit as the "same gift" with what took place in Acts 2:4 (cf. Acts 1:5).

The gift received in Acts 10:44-46, which is the gift referenced in Acts 11:17, is indeed the same gift that was received in Acts 2:4 (the gift of tongues and praise). This was NOT the indwelling of the Spirit.

2. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDTT)
What until Pentecost, the decisive date for the universal church, was the privilege of only a few individuals, is from that day forward the most important characteristic of the Jewish and subsequently (cf. Acts 10) the Gentile church. According to Acts 2:4 all were "filled with the Spirit"...To be filled with the power of the Spirit means to "live by the Spirit" (Gal. 5:25), or to be "in Christ", to "have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:16), and thus to have the fullness of the gifts of grace flow through one as a member of the body of Christ.

It is so easy to refute your false doctrine.

This NIDTT is not Scripture. It is a man made document, and so is prone to be full of errors (as this clip indicates). Just because someone is "filled with the Holy Spirit" does not indicate their salvation. To be filled with the Spirit can mean that He is empowering you with special purpose (see the tradesmen given special gifts of craftsmanship to build the Tabernacle). It can mean that He is giving you strength, wisdom, or skill at arms as He did to the Judges, Saul, David, the army of Israel, and many others. None of these cases indicate that He is indwelling their hearts.

 

[Fred]

The gift received in Acts 10:44-46, which is the gift referenced in Acts 11:17, is indeed the same gift that was received in Acts 2:4 (the gift of tongues and praise). This was NOT the indwelling of the Spirit.

False.
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/eli-insurance-policy.589/page-3#post-25287

This NIDTT is not Scripture. It is a man made document,

The same applies to what you write.

and so is prone to be full of errors (as this clip indicates). Just because someone is "filled with the Holy Spirit" does not indicate their salvation. To be filled with the Spirit can mean that He is empowering you with special purpose (see the tradesmen given special gifts of craftsmanship to build the Tabernacle). It can mean that He is giving you strength, wisdom, or skill at arms as He did to the Judges, Saul, David, the army of Israel, and many others. None of these cases indicate that He is indwelling their hearts.

More worthless opinions on your part.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

James 2:26 - faith without action is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead. - faith requires action.

silly you. Looking to an author accusing people who claim to have faith of being saved then losing it because they had no works.

Again, romans 4 would be your go to verse. James is not talking to you.

Trust is in the action. If you don't act, then you don't really trust.

lol

but we are saved by faith, not in our actions.. Not of works lest anyone should boast.

those saved WILL ACT

There is a difference between actions in order to earn something and actions in trust.

yeah there is

actions in trust are actions in gratitude, expecting nothing in return.

Actions in order to earn salvation are that works of merit..

why do they works works of merit. because their faith or trust in in self. not God.. if they trusted God completely. they would just receive his gift. Let God change them, and go on growing in God

If you do good things in order to earn salvation, you will never receive it.

Including water baptism

But if you do the things that God commanded that He said lead to receiving His gift, then you receive His gift. If you do not do what He commanded, then you do not receive His gift.

see how you worded it.

leading to his gift. That makes it not a gift at all but a reward.

If it is of grace it is not of works.. grace plus works equals works

 

[Doug Brents]

Romans 4 would be your go to verse. James is not talking to you.

James is talking to everyone. He isn't talking about a single individual's faith, or even the particular faith of the congregation to whom he is writing. He is defining faith in general.

but we are saved by faith, not in our actions.. Not of works lest anyone should boast.

those saved WILL ACT

If we don't have actions, then we don't have faith, just intellectual assent and that will save no one.

yeah there is

actions in trust are actions in gratitude, expecting nothing in return.

Indeed so. But then, we trust that He will honor His promises. We do not expect a reward, as in a due or a wage. But He is faithful to His promises, and He has promised that IF we trust in Him, and obey Him, and repent of sin, confess Him as Lord, and submit to baptism into Him, THEN He will give us salvation, adoption, forgiveness, glorification with Him.

Actions in order to earn salvation are that works of merit..

There is no merit in repentance. There is no merit in confessing Him as Lord. There is no merit in being immersed in water. There is no merit in doing what He has commanded us to do (Luke 17:7-10). There is only our duty to do what He says, and trust that He will do what He has promised He would do.

why do they works works of merit. because their faith or trust in in self. not God.. if they trusted God completely. they would just receive his gift. Let God change them, and go on growing in God

You cannot receive what only He can give in your own way. You can only receive it as He says it is received. If He says you receive food if you jump on one foot, but you don't jump on one foot, do you receive food? No.

Including water baptism

What is "good" about being immersed in water? There is no meritorious value to it. There is no spiritual value to it. There is no honor or glory garnered to God for it. It is just one of those simple, innocuous, meaningless (in its own right) actions that God commanded that He said leads to receiving His gift of salvation from sin.

see how you worded it.

leading to his gift. That makes it not a gift at all but a reward.

Not at all. He earned salvation. He paid for it lock, stock, and barrel. He owns and possess it, and can give it to whomever He will in whatever manner He chooses. He chose to give it to those who repent from sin by turning to Him, who confess Him verbally and publicly as their Lord, and who submit to being immersed in water in His name. These three conditions are set by Him as the manner in which we unwrap his gift, take hold of it, and make it our own.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

James is talking to everyone.

No

james is talking to people who CLAIM to have faith, but has no works.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

If you have done any work at all. James is not written to you

He isn't talking about a single individual's faith, or even the particular faith of the congregation to whom he is writing. He is defining faith in general.

lol. Wow you need to read james.. You are taking away words

If we don't have actions, then we don't have faith, just intellectual assent and that will save no one.

The actions James spoke of for abraham was in Gen 22, Abraham was saved in Gen 15 many decades before the workd James spoke of.. in fact his son was not even born..

Indeed so. But then, we trust that He will honor His promises. We do not expect a reward, as in a due or a wage. But He is faithful to His promises, and He has promised that IF we trust in Him, and obey Him, and repent of sin, confess Him as Lord, and submit to baptism into Him, THEN He will give us salvation, adoption, forgiveness, glorification with Him.

There is no merit in repentance. There is no merit in confessing Him as Lord. There is no merit in being immersed in water. There is no merit in doing what He has commanded us to do (Luke 17:7-10). There is only our duty to do what He says, and trust that He will do what He has promised He would do.

You cannot receive what only He can give in your own way. You can only receive it as He says it is received. If He says you receive food if you jump on one foot, but you don't jump on one foot, do you receive food? No.

What is "good" about being immersed in water? There is no meritorious value to it. There is no spiritual value to it. There is no honor or glory garnered to God for it. It is just one of those simple, innocuous, meaningless (in its own right) actions that God commanded that He said leads to receiving His gift of salvation from sin.

Not at all. He earned salvation. He paid for it lock, stock, and barrel. He owns and possess it, and can give it to whomever He will in whatever manner He chooses. He chose to give it to those who repent from sin by turning to Him, who confess Him verbally and publicly as their Lord, and who submit to being immersed in water in His name. These three conditions are set by Him as the manner in which we unwrap his gift, take hold of it, and make it our own.

lol. Your trying to merit salvation by your works.

stop denying it. Stop boasting. and give it all to God

 

[Doug Brents]

No

james is talking to people who CLAIM to have faith, but has no works.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

If you have done any work at all. James is not written to you

No, he is talking ABOUT people who claim to have faith. He is talking to everyone in the world. He says, "IF SOMEONE SAYS...". He is not talking about someone who doesn't say that. But he is still talking TO both of them.

lol. Wow you need to read james.. You are taking away words

The actions James spoke of for abraham was in Gen 22, Abraham was saved in Gen 15 many decades before the workd James spoke of.. in fact his son was not even born..

Indeed. The actions of faith must continue throughout life. Abraham exhibited faith in leaving his family, in going where God commanded, in sacrificing his son, in sending his slave son away, .... Repeatedly, Abraham demonstrated faith in God. James just chooses, with the Spirit's guidance, to mention only one of Abraham's acts of faith.

lol. Your trying to merit salvation by your works.

stop denying it. Stop boasting. and give it all to God

I don't deserve salvation, and neither does anyone else. But I trust that God will keep His word, and do what He promised He would do. I have nothing to boast about, other than that my Lord is the Maker, Founder, Creator, and God of all reality. My only boast is in the Lord, for He is the only one worthy of boasting.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

No, he is talking ABOUT people who claim to have faith. He is talking to everyone in the world. He says, "IF SOMEONE SAYS...". He is not talking about someone who doesn't say that. But he is still talking TO both of them.

word salad.

what does it profit a person if they SAY they have faith, but HAS NO WORKS.

this is who he is talking to.. No one else.

Indeed. The actions of faith must continue throughout life. Abraham exhibited faith in leaving his family, in going where God commanded, in sacrificing his son, in sending his slave son away, .... Repeatedly, Abraham demonstrated faith in God. James just chooses, with the Spirit's guidance, to mention only one of Abraham's acts of faith.

I don't deserve salvation, and neither does anyone else. But I trust that God will keep His word, and do what He promised He would do. I have nothing to boast about, other than that my Lord is the Maker, Founder, Creator, and God of all reality. My only boast is in the Lord, for He is the only one worthy of boasting.

Paul calls this thinking foolish. having begun the the spirit are you now being perfected in the flesh. are you so foolish....

Again, You need to get away from james, and study paul.

James can not help you, because you are not licentious. so he is not speaking to you. Paul is the one you need to listen to

 

[Doug Brents]

word salad.

what does it profit a person if they SAY they have faith, but HAS NO WORKS.

this is who he is talking to.. No one else.

Your OPINION is noted. Thanks.

Paul calls this thinking foolish. having begun the the spirit are you now being perfected in the flesh. are you so foolish....

Again, You need to get away from james, and study paul.

James can not help you, because you are not licentious. so he is not speaking to you. Paul is the one you need to listen to

Paul does not define faith. The Hebrew writer does (as evidence of what is unseen and substance of what is hoped for), and James defines it as having the spirit of actions that gives life, just as the spirit gives man gives life to his body. Paul uses the term frequently, but he does not define it, so studying him to discover what faith is brings no result.