Salvation and Unitarians

[Pancho Frijoles]

Far be it for me to venture an opinion on who is saved and who is not.

Hello, Synergy
My personal apologies for being absent of the Forum over the last two weeks for the reasons I shared in my last post.

It is wonderful to know that you or other person who self-identifies as Trinitarian will not venture an opinion on which Unitarian (or Jew, or Muslim) is saved and which one is not.
The problem starts when a Trinitarian establishes clear criteria for damnation based on a doctrine that any Unitarian (or Jew, or Muslim) would confess publicly and consciously.

Put in that situation, the Trinitarian has two choices:

1. retract and say that believing that Jesus is God is not what determine salvation, or
2. stand their ground and say that all Unitarians that die consciously rejecting the doctrine that Jesus is God will burn in hell.

Imagine an evangelical who preaches confidently "Gays will not enter the Kingdom of God" and then, trying to answer a question from Andy Clayton his gay friend at work, mumbles "Well... only God knows who will be saved, you see? I'm nobody to make a judgement on you, buddy".

If you recognize that God can save a Unitarian for reasons more important that the Unitarian's conscious rejection of the concept that Jesus is God, then you are recognizing that such rejection (even if wrong) is not the criteria God uses to save his children.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Just as an FYI I'm all about love as the mark of the believer. But that does not mean we cannot rebuke, correct those who oppose sound doctrine. So the question becomes what is sound doctrine.


BTW- I really like you and enjoy reading your thoughtful posts even though we may disagree on some things. I'm glad you are here my friend.

Thank you very much, civic. My apologies for the long absence from the forum. I have now a narrow window to interact and thank you for your posts and friendly spirit, which comes from God.

Yes, it is absolutely correct for anyone to rebuke any idea that they believe opposes to sound doctrine.
Debate among people from different religious ideas or traditions is rooted in the acceptation of this basic right and duty.

My concern is the confusion between "holding a wrong idea" and "burning in eternal hell" (or "holding the sound doctrine" and "being saved"). People are not saved because of the creeds they adhere to, but because of the grace of God acting in people to live up to the holy life those creeds teach.

 

[synergy]

Hello, Synergy
My personal apologies for being absent of the Forum over the last two weeks for the reasons I shared in my last post.

It is wonderful to know that you or other person who self-identifies as Trinitarian will not venture an opinion on which Unitarian (or Jew, or Muslim) is saved and which one is not.
The problem starts when a Trinitarian establishes clear criteria for damnation based on a doctrine that any Unitarian (or Jew, or Muslim) would confess publicly and consciously.

Put in that situation, the Trinitarian has two choices:

1. retract and say that believing that Jesus is God is not what determine salvation, or
2. stand their ground and say that all Unitarians that die consciously rejecting the doctrine that Jesus is God will burn in hell.

Imagine an evangelical who preaches confidently "Gays will not enter the Kingdom of God" and then, trying to answer a question from Andy Clayton his gay friend at work, mumbles "Well... only God knows who will be saved, you see? I'm nobody to make a judgement on you, buddy".

If you recognize that God can save a Unitarian for reasons more important that the Unitarian's conscious rejection of the concept that Jesus is God, then you are recognizing that such rejection (even if wrong) is not the criteria God uses to save his children.

Good to hear from you again, Pancho.

There is a 3rd option:

3. stand their ground and make all aware that most (if not all) heresies, like Arianism, have been annihilated by Historical Saints and that there is very little excuse for anyone to lead others into those very same heresies. Proceed at your own risk.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Take a look at the image below.
They are Fatima, Muslim girl, and Nancy, a Christian girl. Fatima is 9 year-old and Nancy is one year younger.
They both are thanking God sincerely for the family, food, shelter and friends they have at school. They attend their respective religious lessons devotedly.
According to the shared consensus in this Forum, both are citizens of the Kingdom of God since they are children.
God listens to their prayers and pours on them His blessings.

Let's imagine that 10 years later, their lives change radically. Their families get very wealthy and they learn to worry more about dresses, cars, trips, makeup and showing off. They start despising and bullying girls that do not live up to their material standards and interests. They start failing at school, and forgetting about God at all.

Then a turn of events (say, the death of one of their parents) make them realize they need God. They want to come back to that personal relationship they had with God when they were little girls. They repent. They cry. They ask for help.

Who in this Forum would say that God would now listen to only one of them, based on their theological beliefs?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Good to hear from you again, Pancho.

There is a 3rd option:

3. stand their ground and make all aware that most (if not all) heresies, like Arianism, have been annihilated by Historical Saints and that there is very little excuse for anyone to lead others into those very same heresies. Proceed at your own risk.

That's not a 3rd option. It's the same second option: since such people have no excuse, such people have no excuse.
So they are not forgiven and it is all right that they are tortured for ever.

Take my case: I know the Bible. I know the arguments from both sides. I myself was a Trinitarian (Catholic, then Seventh Day Adventist).
I am consciously choosing to reject the deity of Jesus as a doctrine. I have no excuse. So, if you stand your ground, you could confidently state that, if I died in this moment from a heart attack, it would be fair and just to see me tortured forever.

Now, if you say "No, Pancho... I can't make such judgment... only God knows your heart" then you are recognizing that there is something in my heart that God knows, that COULD be more important that my conscious rejection of the deity of Jesus.

 

[synergy]

That's not a 3rd option. It's the same second option: because such people have no excuse, such people have no excuse.
So they are not forgiven and it is all right that they are tortured for ever.

How do you know they have no excuse? What about all the Historical Pagan Gentiles that knew nothing about God of the OT? Are they to be blamed for that?

Here is God's Judgment concerning those without the Law:

Rom 2:12 For as many as sinned without Law will also perish without Law. And as many as have sinned within Law shall be judged through Law.
Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another,
Rom 2:16 in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Take my case: I was a Trinitarian. I know the Bible. I know the arguments from both sides. I consciously choose to reject the deity of Jesus. I have no excuse. So, if you stand your ground, you could confidently state that, if I died in this moment from a heart attack, it would be fair and just to see me tortured forever.

I barely know you. How could I possibly say that?

Now, if you say "No, Pancho... I can't make such judgment... only God knows your heart" then you are recognizing that there is something in my heart that God knows, that COULD be more important that my conscious rejection of the deity of Jesus.

I would have to dig into why and under what circumstances you committed a "conscious rejection of the deity of Jesus".

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I barely know you. How could I possibly say that?

That's right.
Now, what else would you need to know from me in order to say that?

I would have to dig into why and under what circumstances you committed a "conscious rejection of the deity of Jesus".

What type of circumstances would you need to know?
How would that knowledge of my circumstances change your mind about my eternal destiny?

 

[101G]

My apologies for not having contacted you within the two last weeks.
I have committed entirely to the workload for the job I have received as a mission (the evaluation of adverse events of medications) and then my closest family.
I appreciate a lot your response and I now understand a bit better your position on the unity of God.

no worries, and thanks.

be blessed.

101G.

 

[synergy]

That's right.
Now, what else would you need to know from me in order to say that?

What type of circumstances would you need to know?
How would that knowledge of my circumstances change your mind about my eternal destiny?

You're a Doctor. How would you approach someone who is ill? It's a similar way with spiritual illnesses/heresies. My doctor would always gather whatever information he can pertaining to the symptoms exhibited and he would critically analyze that information in order to isolate the cause/source of the illness.

 

[Runningman]

Though Peter was slow to recognize God's work among the Gentiles, he certainly spoke true words in Acts 10:34-35.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

God saves. He has people everywhere. He alone is Judge of humanity. I'm not the judge of any man. However, I have studied the words of Christ. Christ has spoken boldy about His Position in salvation. For example.....Sobering words are found in

John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

The question must be asked, "What must a person believe about Christ to be saved?". I'm not asking when you believe you were saved. I'm not asking how you believe you were saved. I'm asking what about Christ did you believe that fulfilled John 8:24? Not Romans 10:9-10. Though Paul is absolutely right about Romans 10:9-10 most people fail to realize that he had spent 9 chapters previous to these statements defining salvation in context of Jesus Christ. It is very important what a person actually believes about Jesus Christ. It is clear to me that the Threshold of salvation rests in how anyone deals with Jesus Christ.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jesus mentions that "many have come"

John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

I will add, many have come since. This world is filled with "idols of imagination". People seem to think they can just name Christ and "fabricate" most anything they want to believe about Him and everything will be okay. No. It is very important what you believe about Christ.

2Cor 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

You know what works matter when it comes to living for Christ?.....It is how you proclaim Christ that defines what you are. "Witnesses"

Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

What we witness matters....

I said all this to say this......

It find it difficult to accept that Unitarians are part of the family of God. So I'm asking Unitarians to convincely proclaim Christ for who He is. Can you preach the Gospel message that extols the Eternal value of Jesus Christ? I can't say that I see that happening from Unitarians. Can you show me the reality of the Gospel from a Unitarian perspective that doesn't craft/fabricate an Idol of Christ?

Christ is the perfect expression of Divinity. Christ is the only sacrifice for sin. God dying for humanity. The Heir of all things. The Name which is above every name. This doctrine is essential to understand the "Door". How can you ever imagine to "walk through the door" when you're treating it every way but as THE ONLY DOOR?

Technically, in Trinitarianism, since God can't die then the sin sacrifice for you was just the body of a human. Essentially, flesh, bones, meat, etc. Means you don't have a sin sacrifice under the rules of Trinitarianism.

Let's see how you answer. Who or what is your sin sacrifice? The body of a man, the soul of a man, or did the immortal God die?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You're a Doctor. How would you approach someone who is ill? It's a similar way with spiritual illnesses/heresies. My doctor would always gather whatever information he can pertaining to the symptoms exhibited and he would critically analyze that information in order to isolate the cause/source of the illness.

I agree. You would need to collect more information on my history and current condition other than taking my Unitarism as the only criterion.
To me it is a refreshing sign from your part and I appreciate it.

 

[synergy]

I agree. You would need to collect more information on my history and current condition other than taking my Unitarism as the only criterion.
To me it is a refreshing sign from your part and I appreciate it.

There's no need for me to pry into anyone's privacy but we can speak generally.

Statistically, many Catholics have had a bad experience with their Church and became secular or atheists. The French were first with the French Revolution. In North America the French Canadians ditched their Catholic Church starting with the sexual revolution in the 1960's. I'm not sure what happened in Mexico and the other Latin Nations.

 

[synergy]

Technically, in Trinitarianism, since God can't die then the sin sacrifice for you was just the body of a human. Essentially, flesh, bones, meat, etc. Means you don't have a sin sacrifice under the rules of Trinitarianism.

Let's see how you answer. Who or what is your sin sacrifice? The body of a man, the soul of a man, or did the immortal God die?

You forget that only God can save. We're not judaizers that think we can just sacrifice a beast and poof God is forever appeased. We're not pagans either that sacrifice a human virgin and poof their pagan god is appeased. Unitarianism falls under the category of Judaizing paganism.

No. We believe Scripture when it says that only God saves. That stands to reason because only God can do what Jesus did in Hades and in Heaven. As human, he died. As God, he crippled Hades, ascended to Heaven, entered the very abode of his Father, and personally poured out the Holy Spirit to all nations. Tell me which human can do that? Only in your Judaizing Pagan dreams.

 

[Runningman]

You forget that only God can save. We're not judaizers that think we can just sacrifice a beast and poof God is forever appeased. We're not pagans either that sacrifice a human virgin and poof their pagan god is appeased. Unitarianism falls under the category of Judaizing paganism.

No. We believe Scripture when it says that only God saves. That stands to reason because only God can do what Jesus did in Hades and in Heaven. As human, he died. As God, he crippled Hades, ascended to Heaven, entered the very abode of his Father, and personally poured out the Holy Spirit to all nations. Tell me which human can do that? Only in your Judaizing Pagan dreams.

I don't think you believe that only God saves. I have already chatted with numerous people here who deny calling on YHWH to be saved (Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13) and then say one must call on Jesus to be saved, contrary to Scripture.

So, to be clear, God did not die for your sins, but rather the body of a man died in your religion? That's it? If that's your final answer then let's look at what the Bible actually says.

Let me know if you see anything interesting in the below passage please.

Isaiah 53 (KJV)
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[civic]

I don't think you believe that only God saves. I have already chatted with numerous people here who deny calling on YHWH to be saved (Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13) and then say one must call on Jesus to be saved, contrary to Scripture.

So, to be clear, God did not die for your sins, but rather the body of a man died in your religion? That's it? If that's your final answer then let's look at what the Bible actually says.

Let me know if you see anything interesting in the below passage please.

Isaiah 53 (KJV)
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Just like God applies to both the Father and the Son, the Lord applies to both the Father and the Son.

next FALLACY

 

[synergy]

I don't think you believe that only God saves. I have already chatted with numerous people here who deny calling on YHWH to be saved (Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13) and then say one must call on Jesus to be saved, contrary to Scripture.

Jesus has many names. Does one name give you more entitlements than other names of his?

So, to be clear, God did not die for your sins, but rather the body of a man died in your religion? That's it? If that's your final answer then let's look at what the Bible actually says.

You just ran away from the fact that only God can do what Jesus did in Hades and in Heaven. As God, he crippled Hades, ascended to Heaven, entered the very abode of his Father, and personally poured out the Holy Spirit to all nations. Tell me which human can do that? Only in your Judaizing Pagan dreams.

Let me know if you see anything interesting in the below passage please.

Isaiah 53 (KJV)
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

That's another thing that only God can truly do. Thanks for mentioning that. Only God has the capability to make amends for and abolish human sin. We make a terrific Trinitarian Apologist Pair!

So to summarize, Jesus is God because:

1. He abolishes sin,
2. He crippled Hades,
3. he ascended to Heaven,
4. he entered the very abode of his Father, and
5. he personally poured out the Holy Spirit to all nations.

If any one of those things didn't happen then we are all lost. Your Judaizing paganism fails miserably in light of all these facts

 

[civic]

Jesus has many names. Does one name give you more entitlements than other names of his?

You just ran away from the fact that only God can do what Jesus did in Hades and in Heaven. As God, he crippled Hades, ascended to Heaven, entered the very abode of his Father, and personally poured out the Holy Spirit to all nations. Tell me which human can do that? Only in your Judaizing Pagan dreams.

That's another thing that only God can truly do. Thanks for mentioning that. Only God has the capability to make amends for and abolishes human sin. We make a terrific Trinitarian Apologist Pair!

So to summarize, Jesus is God because:

1. He abolishes sin,
2. He crippled Hades,
3. he ascended to Heaven,
4. he entered the very abode of his Father, and
5. he personally poured out the Holy Spirit to all nations.

If any one of those things didn't happen then we are all lost. Your Judaizing paganism fails miserably in light of all these facts

Undeniable biblical facts concerning the Divine Son who is identified as God/YHWH/IAM in many places in both testaments.

 

[Runningman]

Just like God applies to both the Father and the Son, the Lord applies to both the Father and the Son.

next FALLACY

Oh, you remembered when we talked about that huh. So Jesus isn't the One Lord is he?

 

[Runningman]

Jesus has many names. Does one name give you more entitlements than other names of his?

Someone who doesn't share all of the names/titles of God isn't God.

You just ran away from the fact that only God can do what Jesus did in Hades and in Heaven. As God, he crippled Hades, ascended to Heaven, entered the very abode of his Father, and personally poured out the Holy Spirit to all nations. Tell me which human can do that? Only in your Judaizing Pagan dreams.

Your story is completely foreign to scripture.

That's another thing that only God can truly do. Thanks for mentioning that. Only God has the capability to make amends for and abolish human sin. We make a terrific Trinitarian Apologist Pair!

Which means Jesus didn't do it. That's my point.

So to summarize, Jesus is God because:

1. He abolishes sin,
2. He crippled Hades,
3. he ascended to Heaven,
4. he entered the very abode of his Father, and
5. he personally poured out the Holy Spirit to all nations.

If any one of those things didn't happen then we are all lost. Your Judaizing paganism fails miserably in light of all these facts

Which verses say that?

 

[civic]

Oh, you remembered when we talked about that huh. So Jesus isn't the One Lord is he?

just like the Father is not the one/only God

next fallacy