Romans 10:11 - Does 'him' refer to the Father or to the Lord Jesus?

November 1, 2004 "him" refers to God.
The Watchtower
Phew! I'm not affiliated with the Watchtower. So, I got that going for me.

The question of the thread is just another back door attempt to rationalize an indefensible doctrine. Let's just ignore all the explicit verses that are unequivocal about who God is; his eternal name is YHWH not Jesus. This is your first clue that Jesus is not God.

The more ambiguous the verse, the more trinitarians invest with doctrinal significance.
 
No Scripture says that.

The answer to the question of which 'him' Romans 10:11 refers to; it's the one that least supports the man is God thesis.

You couldn't even take a stand as to whom the "Him" refers to in Romans 10:11.

How pathetic.
 
No Scripture says that.

The answer to the question of which 'him' Romans 10:11 refers to; it's the one that least supports the man is God thesis. :giggle:

@Wrangler,
May you have a Blessed Week and a Joyful Thanksgiving along with Health in your body and Joy in the Holy Spirit


Today is the Day of Salvation - We will Rejoice and be Glad in God our Savior

Isaiah ch45
Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.

“Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.

Hebrews 12:1-2
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Rejoice in the Salvation of God who came from the Father that we may inherit Eternal Life
In His Name alone, LORD Jesus Christ, there is forgiveness of sins and the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit
Blessed be the Israel of God
 
November 1, 2004 "him" refers to God.
The Watchtower: The apostle Paul wrote: “None that rests his faith on [God] will be disappointed.” (Romans 10:11) (Will We Ever Enjoy Real Security?, page 32)

June 15, 2011 "him" refers to Jesus.
The Watchtower: With reference to Jesus, Paul quoted Isaiah’s words: “None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed.” (Rom. 10:11; Isa. 28:16) (There Is Good News That All Need, page 11)
Its obvious, one has faith in both Father and son, after all Jesus did exactly what his God and commanded him to teach and do. John 12:49)-Jesus is the #1 Jehovah witness-Rev 1:5
 
Question: Does the singular "him" refers to Jehovah (their creator) or to Jesus (their creature)?
Answer: That would depend on the time the question is in reference to.
Well @Fred -

10:11 This is a quote from Isa. 28:16 to which Paul has added the word "whoever." In Isaiah this referred to faith in the Messiah, God's cornerstone (cf. Rom. 9:32-33).

As Romans 9 magnifies God's sovereignty, Romans 10 magnifies the need for individuals, any and all individuals, to respond to Christ. The universal offer is clearly seen in the "everyone" of Rom. 10:4 and the "whosoever" of Rom. 10:11, 13, and "all" of Rom. 10:12 (twice)! This is the theological balance to the selective (predestination) emphasis of Romans 9.

"believes in Him"
This is a present active participle with the preposition epi (cf. Rom. 4:24; 9:33; 1 Tim. 1:16).


Believing is not only an initial response, but an ongoing requirement for salvation! It is not only correct theology (gospel truths) that saves, but personal relationship (gospel person) resulting in a godly lifestyle (gospel living). Beware of easy believism which separates truth from life, justification from sanctification. A faith that saves is a faith that persists and changes! Eternal life has observable characteristics!

NASB, TEV"not be disappointed"
NKJV, NRSV"will not to put to shame"
NJB"will have no cause for shame"

Those who trust ("believe") in Christ will not be turned away. This is a quote from Isa. 28:16, which was a key verse in Paul's presentation in Rom. 9:33.
 
Well @Fred -

10:11 This is a quote from Isa. 28:16 to which Paul has added the word "whoever." In Isaiah this referred to faith in the Messiah, God's cornerstone (cf. Rom. 9:32-33).

As Romans 9 magnifies God's sovereignty, Romans 10 magnifies the need for individuals, any and all individuals, to respond to Christ. The universal offer is clearly seen in the "everyone" of Rom. 10:4 and the "whosoever" of Rom. 10:11, 13, and "all" of Rom. 10:12 (twice)! This is the theological balance to the selective (predestination) emphasis of Romans 9.

"believes in Him"
This is a present active participle with the preposition epi (cf. Rom. 4:24; 9:33; 1 Tim. 1:16).


Believing is not only an initial response, but an ongoing requirement for salvation! It is not only correct theology (gospel truths) that saves, but personal relationship (gospel person) resulting in a godly lifestyle (gospel living). Beware of easy believism which separates truth from life, justification from sanctification. A faith that saves is a faith that persists and changes! Eternal life has observable characteristics!

NASB, TEV"not be disappointed"
NKJV, NRSV"will not to put to shame"
NJB"will have no cause for shame"

Those who trust ("believe") in Christ will not be turned away. This is a quote from Isa. 28:16, which was a key verse in Paul's presentation in Rom. 9:33.

Good points.

It's interesting that Peter also quotes Isaiah 28:16 in reference to Jesus.


Paul and Peter
Romans 10:11 - 1 Peter 2:6
Romans 10:12 - Acts 10:36
Romans 10:13 - Acts 2:21
1. Paul and Peter wrote that whoever believes in Him (in reference to Jesus) would not be disappointed. (Romans 10:11; 1 Peter 2:6)
2. Paul wrote and Peter spoke that Jesus is "Lord of all." (Romans 10:12; Acts 10:36)
3. Paul wrote and Peter spoke that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord (in reference to Jesus) shall be saved. (Romans 10:13; Acts 2:21)
 
Good points.

It's interesting that Peter also quotes Isaiah 28:16 in reference to Jesus.


Paul and Peter
Romans 10:11 - 1 Peter 2:6
Romans 10:12 - Acts 10:36
Romans 10:13 - Acts 2:21
1. Paul and Peter wrote that whoever believes in Him (in reference to Jesus) would not be disappointed. (Romans 10:11; 1 Peter 2:6)
2. Paul wrote and Peter spoke that Jesus is "Lord of all." (Romans 10:12; Acts 10:36)
3. Paul wrote and Peter spoke that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord (in reference to Jesus) shall be saved. (Romans 10:13; Acts 2:21)
Good work brother.
 
Once one admits (and that correctly) that the "Him" in Romans 10:11 refers to Jesus then it follows the "Lord" in Romans 10:12 and Romans 10:13 does as well. (See the link in post 75).

This is perhaps why there are Unitarians (such as Wrangler) who refuse to man up and affirm to whom the "Him" in Romans 10:11 refers to.
It's obviously in reference to Jesus. This hits to close to home that the "Lord" in the next two passages also refers to Jesus. He has said elsewhere that it doesn't refer to Jesus in Romans 10:13. See his last sentence:

It's simply easier for Wrangler to run away from Romans 10:11.
 
Once one admits (and that correctly) that the "Him" in Romans 10:11 refers to Jesus then it follows the "Lord" in Romans 10:12 and Romans 10:13 does as well. (See the link in post 75).

This is perhaps why there are Unitarians (such as Wrangler) who refuse to man up and affirm to whom the "Him" in Romans 10:11 refers to.
It's obviously in reference to Jesus. This hits to close to home that the "Lord" in the next two passages also refers to Jesus. He has said elsewhere that it doesn't refer to Jesus in Romans 10:13. See his last sentence:

It's simply easier for Wrangler to run away from Romans 10:11.
CONFESSING CHRIST INEVITABLE

It is impossible to believe with the heart and not confess with the mouth - this were to have a fire which did not burn, a light which did not illuminate, a principle which did not actuate, a hope which did not stimulate. Genuine Christians are temples of the living God; but think ye to be so. There must issue a sound from the recesses of the sanctuary, the sound as of a presiding deity, eloquent to all around of the power and authority of the Being that dwelleth within.
-H. Melvill

Give him a chance-what looks hopeless to us is God working silently-opening the eyes of the understanding.


Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches and the chochmah (wisdom) and da'as (knowledge) of Hashem. How unfathomable are His mishpatim and unsearchable His ways.
Rom 11:34 For who has known the Ruach of Hashem? Or who has been ISH ATZATO ("His Counselor") [Isa 40:13]?
Rom 11:35 Or who has given in advance to Him so that His presents come only as a (choiv) debt repaid? [IYOV 41:3 (11); Ro 4:4]
Rom 11:36 Because from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. Lo HaKavod l'Olamim. Omein. ("To Him be glory forever. Amen.")


The Hound Of Heaven
By Francis Thompson (1890)
I fled Him, down the nights and down the days;

I fled Him, down the arches of the years;

I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways

Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears

I hid from Him, and under running laughter.

Up vistaed hopes I sped;

And shot, precipitated,

Adown Titanic glooms of chasmèd fears,

From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.

But with unhurrying chase,

And unperturbèd pace,

Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,

They beat—and a Voice beat

More instant than the Feet—

‘All things betray thee, who betrayest Me.’

I pleaded, outlaw-wise,

By many a hearted casement, curtained red,

Trellised with intertwining charities;

(For, though I knew His love Who followèd,

Yet was I sore adread

Lest having Him, I must have naught beside).

But, if one little casement parted wide,

The gust of His approach would clash it to.

Fear wist not to evade, as Love wist to pursue.

Across the margent of the world I fled,

And troubled the gold gateways of the stars,

Smiting for shelter on their clangèd bars;

Fretted to dulcet jars

And silvern chatter the pale ports o’ the moon.

I said to Dawn: Be sudden—to Eve: Be soon;

With thy young skiey blossoms heap me over

From this tremendous Lover—

Float thy vague veil about me, lest He see!

I tempted all His servitors, but to find

My own betrayal in their constancy,

In faith to Him their fickleness to me,

Their traitorous trueness, and their loyal deceit.

To all swift things for swiftness did I sue;

Clung to the whistling mane of every wind.

But whether they swept, smoothly fleet,

The long savannahs of the blue;

Or whether, Thunder-driven,

They clanged his chariot ’thwart a heaven,

Plashy with flying lightnings round the spurn o’ their

feet:—

Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue.

Still with unhurrying chase,

And unperturbèd pace,

Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,

Came on the following Feet,

And a Voice above their beat—

‘Naught shelters thee, who wilt not shelter Me.’


I sought no more that after which I strayed

In face of man or maid;

But still within the little children’s eyes

Seems something, something that replies;

They at least are for me, surely for me!

I turned me to them very wistfully;

But just as their young eyes grew sudden fair

With dawning answers there,

Their angel plucked them from me by the hair.

‘Come then, ye other children, Nature’s—share

With me’ (said I) ‘your delicate fellowship;

Let me greet you lip to lip,

Let me twine with you caresses,

Wantoning

With our Lady-Mother’s vagrant tresses,

Banqueting

With her in her wind-walled palace,

Underneath her azured daïs,

Quaffing, as your taintless way is,

From a chalice

Lucent-weeping out of the dayspring.’

So it was done:

I in their delicate fellowship was one—

Drew the bolt of Nature’s secrecies.

I knew all the swift importings

On the wilful face of skies;

I knew how the clouds arise

Spumèd of the wild sea-snortings;

All that’s born or dies

Rose and drooped with; made them shapers

Of mine own moods, or wailful or divine;

With them joyed and was bereaven.

I was heavy with the even,

When she lit her glimmering tapers

Round the day’s dead sanctities.

I laughed in the morning’s eyes.


I triumphed and I saddened with all weather,

Heaven and I wept together,

And its sweet tears were salt with mortal mine;

Against the red throb of its sunset-heart

I laid my own to beat,

And share commingling heat;

But not by that, by that, was eased my human smart.

In vain my tears were wet on Heaven’s gray cheek.

For ah! we know not what each other says,

These things and I; in sound I speak—

Their sound is but their stir, they speak by silences.

Nature, poor stepdame, cannot slake my drouth;

Let her, if she would owe me,

Drop yon blue bosom-veil of sky, and show me

The breasts o’ her tenderness:

Never did any milk of hers once bless

My thirsting mouth.

Nigh and nigh draws the chase,

With unperturbèd pace,

Deliberate speed, majestic instancy;

And past those noisèd Feet

A voice comes yet more fleet—

‘Lo! naught contents thee, who content’st

not Me.’


Naked I wait Thy love’s uplifted stroke!

My harness piece by piece Thou hast hewn from me,

And smitten me to my knee;

I am defenceless utterly.

I slept, methinks, and woke,

And, slowly gazing, find me stripped in sleep.

In the rash lustihead of my young powers,

I shook the pillaring hours

And pulled my life upon me; grimed with smears,

I stand amid the dust o’ the mounded years—

My mangled youth lies dead beneath the heap.

My days have crackled and gone up in smoke,

Have puffed and burst as sun-starts on a stream.

Yea, faileth now even dream

The dreamer, and the lute the lutanist;

Even the linked fantasies, in whose blossomy twist

I swung the earth a trinket at my wrist,

Are yielding; cords of all too weak account

For earth with heavy griefs so overplussed.

Ah! is Thy love indeed

A weed, albeit an amaranthine weed,

Suffering no flowers except its own to mount?

Ah! must—

Designer infinite!—

Ah! must Thou char the wood ere Thou canst limn

with it?

My freshness spent its wavering shower i’ the dust;

And now my heart is as a broken fount,

Wherein tear-drippings stagnate, spilt down ever

From the dank thoughts that shiver

Upon the sighful branches of my mind.

Such is; what is to be?

The pulp so bitter, how shall taste the rind?

I dimly guess what Time in mists confounds;

Yet ever and anon a trumpet sounds

From the hid battlements of Eternity;

Those shaken mists a space unsettle, then

Round the half-glimpsèd turrets slowly wash again.

But not ere him who summoneth

I first have seen, enwound

With glooming robes purpureal, cypress-crowned;

His name I know, and what his trumpet saith.

Whether man’s heart or life it be which yields

Thee harvest, must Thy harvest-fields

Be dunged with rotten death?


Now of that long pursuit

Comes on at hand the bruit;

That Voice is round me like a bursting sea:

‘And is thy earth so marred,

Shattered in shard on shard?

Lo, all things fly thee, for thou fliest Me!

Strange, piteous, futile thing!

Wherefore should any set thee love apart?

Seeing none but I makes much of naught’ (He said),

‘And human love needs human meriting:

How hast thou merited—

Of all man’s clotted clay the dingiest clot?

Alack, thou knowest not

How little worthy of any love thou art!

Whom wilt thou find to love ignoble thee,

Save Me, save only Me?

All which I took from thee I did but take,

Not for thy harms,

But just that thou might’st seek it in My arms.

All which thy child’s mistake

Fancies as lost, I have stored for thee at home:

Rise, clasp My hand, and come!’

Halts by me that footfall:

Is my gloom, after all,

Shade of His hand, outstretched caressingly?

‘Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest,

I am He Whom thou seekest!

Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest Me.’

— Francis Thompson (1859–1907)
 
CONFESSING CHRIST INEVITABLE

It is impossible to believe with the heart and not confess with the mouth - this were to have a fire which did not burn, a light which did not illuminate, a principle which did not actuate, a hope which did not stimulate. Genuine Christians are temples of the living God; but think ye to be so. There must issue a sound from the recesses of the sanctuary, the sound as of a presiding deity, eloquent to all around of the power and authority of the Being that dwelleth within.
-H. Melvill

Give him a chance-what looks hopeless to us is God working silently-opening the eyes of the understanding.


Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches and the chochmah (wisdom) and da'as (knowledge) of Hashem. How unfathomable are His mishpatim and unsearchable His ways.
Rom 11:34 For who has known the Ruach of Hashem? Or who has been ISH ATZATO ("His Counselor") [Isa 40:13]?
Rom 11:35 Or who has given in advance to Him so that His presents come only as a (choiv) debt repaid? [IYOV 41:3 (11); Ro 4:4]
Rom 11:36 Because from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. Lo HaKavod l'Olamim. Omein. ("To Him be glory forever. Amen.")


The Hound Of Heaven
By Francis Thompson (1890)
I fled Him, down the nights and down the days;

I fled Him, down the arches of the years;

I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways

Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears

I hid from Him, and under running laughter.

Up vistaed hopes I sped;

And shot, precipitated,

Adown Titanic glooms of chasmèd fears,

From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.

But with unhurrying chase,

And unperturbèd pace,

Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,

They beat—and a Voice beat

More instant than the Feet—

‘All things betray thee, who betrayest Me.’

I pleaded, outlaw-wise,

By many a hearted casement, curtained red,

Trellised with intertwining charities;

(For, though I knew His love Who followèd,

Yet was I sore adread

Lest having Him, I must have naught beside).

But, if one little casement parted wide,

The gust of His approach would clash it to.

Fear wist not to evade, as Love wist to pursue.

Across the margent of the world I fled,

And troubled the gold gateways of the stars,

Smiting for shelter on their clangèd bars;

Fretted to dulcet jars

And silvern chatter the pale ports o’ the moon.

I said to Dawn: Be sudden—to Eve: Be soon;

With thy young skiey blossoms heap me over

From this tremendous Lover—

Float thy vague veil about me, lest He see!

I tempted all His servitors, but to find

My own betrayal in their constancy,

In faith to Him their fickleness to me,

Their traitorous trueness, and their loyal deceit.

To all swift things for swiftness did I sue;

Clung to the whistling mane of every wind.

But whether they swept, smoothly fleet,

The long savannahs of the blue;

Or whether, Thunder-driven,

They clanged his chariot ’thwart a heaven,

Plashy with flying lightnings round the spurn o’ their

feet:—

Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue.

Still with unhurrying chase,

And unperturbèd pace,

Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,

Came on the following Feet,

And a Voice above their beat—

‘Naught shelters thee, who wilt not shelter Me.’


I sought no more that after which I strayed

In face of man or maid;

But still within the little children’s eyes

Seems something, something that replies;

They at least are for me, surely for me!

I turned me to them very wistfully;

But just as their young eyes grew sudden fair

With dawning answers there,

Their angel plucked them from me by the hair.

‘Come then, ye other children, Nature’s—share

With me’ (said I) ‘your delicate fellowship;

Let me greet you lip to lip,

Let me twine with you caresses,

Wantoning

With our Lady-Mother’s vagrant tresses,

Banqueting

With her in her wind-walled palace,

Underneath her azured daïs,

Quaffing, as your taintless way is,

From a chalice

Lucent-weeping out of the dayspring.’

So it was done:

I in their delicate fellowship was one—

Drew the bolt of Nature’s secrecies.

I knew all the swift importings

On the wilful face of skies;

I knew how the clouds arise

Spumèd of the wild sea-snortings;

All that’s born or dies

Rose and drooped with; made them shapers

Of mine own moods, or wailful or divine;

With them joyed and was bereaven.

I was heavy with the even,

When she lit her glimmering tapers

Round the day’s dead sanctities.

I laughed in the morning’s eyes.


I triumphed and I saddened with all weather,

Heaven and I wept together,

And its sweet tears were salt with mortal mine;

Against the red throb of its sunset-heart

I laid my own to beat,

And share commingling heat;

But not by that, by that, was eased my human smart.

In vain my tears were wet on Heaven’s gray cheek.

For ah! we know not what each other says,

These things and I; in sound I speak—

Their sound is but their stir, they speak by silences.

Nature, poor stepdame, cannot slake my drouth;

Let her, if she would owe me,

Drop yon blue bosom-veil of sky, and show me

The breasts o’ her tenderness:

Never did any milk of hers once bless

My thirsting mouth.

Nigh and nigh draws the chase,

With unperturbèd pace,

Deliberate speed, majestic instancy;

And past those noisèd Feet

A voice comes yet more fleet—

‘Lo! naught contents thee, who content’st

not Me.’


Naked I wait Thy love’s uplifted stroke!

My harness piece by piece Thou hast hewn from me,

And smitten me to my knee;

I am defenceless utterly.

I slept, methinks, and woke,

And, slowly gazing, find me stripped in sleep.

In the rash lustihead of my young powers,

I shook the pillaring hours

And pulled my life upon me; grimed with smears,

I stand amid the dust o’ the mounded years—

My mangled youth lies dead beneath the heap.

My days have crackled and gone up in smoke,

Have puffed and burst as sun-starts on a stream.

Yea, faileth now even dream

The dreamer, and the lute the lutanist;

Even the linked fantasies, in whose blossomy twist

I swung the earth a trinket at my wrist,

Are yielding; cords of all too weak account

For earth with heavy griefs so overplussed.

Ah! is Thy love indeed

A weed, albeit an amaranthine weed,

Suffering no flowers except its own to mount?

Ah! must—

Designer infinite!—

Ah! must Thou char the wood ere Thou canst limn

with it?

My freshness spent its wavering shower i’ the dust;

And now my heart is as a broken fount,

Wherein tear-drippings stagnate, spilt down ever

From the dank thoughts that shiver

Upon the sighful branches of my mind.

Such is; what is to be?

The pulp so bitter, how shall taste the rind?

I dimly guess what Time in mists confounds;

Yet ever and anon a trumpet sounds

From the hid battlements of Eternity;

Those shaken mists a space unsettle, then

Round the half-glimpsèd turrets slowly wash again.

But not ere him who summoneth

I first have seen, enwound

With glooming robes purpureal, cypress-crowned;

His name I know, and what his trumpet saith.

Whether man’s heart or life it be which yields

Thee harvest, must Thy harvest-fields

Be dunged with rotten death?


Now of that long pursuit

Comes on at hand the bruit;

That Voice is round me like a bursting sea:

‘And is thy earth so marred,

Shattered in shard on shard?

Lo, all things fly thee, for thou fliest Me!

Strange, piteous, futile thing!

Wherefore should any set thee love apart?

Seeing none but I makes much of naught’ (He said),

‘And human love needs human meriting:

How hast thou merited—

Of all man’s clotted clay the dingiest clot?

Alack, thou knowest not

How little worthy of any love thou art!

Whom wilt thou find to love ignoble thee,

Save Me, save only Me?

All which I took from thee I did but take,

Not for thy harms,

But just that thou might’st seek it in My arms.

All which thy child’s mistake

Fancies as lost, I have stored for thee at home:

Rise, clasp My hand, and come!’

Halts by me that footfall:

Is my gloom, after all,

Shade of His hand, outstretched caressingly?

‘Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest,

I am He Whom thou seekest!

Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest Me.’

— Francis Thompson (1859–1907)

Simple Form = "they overcame him(satan) by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony" = Revelation
 
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