civic
Well-known member
Can you explain how you view penal substitution atonement ?
PSA is necessary for the U and L in TULIP
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Isaiah 53:5
But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
That's sufficient enough for me.
If what you're asking is "does this include God's wrath?", then I have no answer. IMO, it is a matter of useless speculation. The only speculation I'm willing to make is that one of the most torturous moments, if not THE most torturous moment for Jesus was when the Father apparently temporarily severed their connection, causing Jesus to cry out “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” I imagine that moment was more painful than any physical torture. But, like I said, that's just my speculation.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Maybe relative to Substitutionary but not the appeal to justice as the primary driving force of the atonement.
civic
Well-known member
Thanks and there is nothing you said that I would be opposed to my friend.
. The only thing that I would differ from you above would be to say there was no wrath from Father to Son whereas you have more of a neutral position which I can respect.
Rockson
Well-known member
I agree. The only thing one needs to have a focus on are those verses you quoted above.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You're setting an unnecessary requirement.
Why did Jesus need to get everything you deserve? We know He didn't. You deserve Eternal Damnation. Damnation WITHOUT END....
Your appeal doesn't match the facts.
civic
Well-known member
no the PSA has by necessity the U and L in tulip since Gods wrath only atoned for the elect by Jesus as the rest not atoned for face Gods future wrath,
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
PSA is teaching an essential conformity of Christ to be just like the sinner. It is what gives the value and appeal of PSA to sinners. They want to fully see themselves chosen for love of God.
Conformity of Christ to sinners. Not conformity if sinners to Christ.
Diserner
Well-known member
Justice is the FOUNDATION of God's throne, and without it there is no moral standard or bases for holiness or righteousness.
God can forgive without Jesus dying AT ALL if God doesn't at all care about any standard of justice.
He can just "cheat" his own rules, and create constant exemptions or be inconsistent.
Yes, but there are different levels of hell, because we are talking about FINITE creatures' experience.
Thus your argument from the unquantifiable infinite fails, because we have different amounts of punishment combined with the infinite.
An infinite being can experience in finite time, what a finite being can experience in infinite time, and there is no possible objection to this.
God is outside of, and beyond, the limitations of time as we have the ability to conceive it.
Diserner
Well-known member
What?
Why are you using a failed Calvinist argument?
It's a non sequitur.
Conditional payments have a logical reality.
Diserner
Well-known member
No, it is upholding the Law of God instead of setting it aside.
Scripture tells us the Law will be fulfilled.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You keep making that false claim. You haven't established this claim. If Justice is the foundation then you are without hope.
I thought you believe the Christ was 100 percent like you? You believe Christ was conformed in your likeness.... SIN, JUDGEMENT and WRATH.
You're not recognizing a finite application. You're contradicting yourself.
If you can't conceive it, then you have no argument. You're making an argument from conjecture.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
By God's Grace in Christ not by God's justice. By the Grace of God Christ tasted DEATH for every man.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The double jeopardy argument only exists because Calvinists believe atonement is a commercial transaction. Christ gets the sin of those he died for and those he died for receive his righteousness. They fail to note the conditional aspect of atonement
Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.
