Appeasement of a Monster God?
- Thread starter Fitzpatrick
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
I know you believe this but it really is nonsense to believe this.
First of all, they didn't commit treason. Tell us why they supposedly "committed treason"?
Dizerner
Active Member
You have a crazy low view of sin, it's actually scary.
Sin is transgression of the Law.
When your King tells you that you have ONE command to obey, and you deliberately disobey, that is definitionally treason.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I actually don't have a low view of sin. I see sin everywhere that most people don't even recognize as sin.
Don't judge Adam and Eve but what you've experienced.
Eve was deceived. Have you ever been deceived? She didn't know what she was doing. Damnation comes from understanding and knowing your own intent... then acting contrary to what you know. That certainly isn't ALL there is to say about forgiveness.
God actually forgave willful sin in the Atonement. Damnation comes from rejecting the remedy for sin. Jesus Christ. That is why we preach Jesus Christ.
Again. What Adam and Eve did wasn't worthy of damnation. They accepted the forgiveness of God.
civic
Active Member
Amen
civic
Active Member
Your view of wrath on the righteous, holy, innocent , sinless is what’s scary
Dizerner
Active Member
So you think it's okay for praise_yeshua to minimize how evil sin is.
But it's evil for me to magnify the sacrifice of Christ.
The hardening of the conscience is insane.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I never minimized how evil sin is. I actually believe sin is worse than you believe it. You think asking "forgive me" resolves the issue.
I don't.
Why don't you get to know me more before you think you understand me. You're rather simple in this. I'm not.
civic
Active Member
I’m not discussing another poster
Dizerner
Active Member
You totally did "discuss another poster."
Every time you make a value judgment on what they say, you discuss that poster.
You certainly felt free to discuss my view of God's wrath being scary, didn't you.
And you are so hardened in your heart, you would rather nitpick about a false doctrine you've idolized, then show integrity in calling out someone for what they said.
Minimizing sin to that extent is a SALVATION ISSUE.
You cannot say Adam and Eve do NOT deserve God's wrath for their sin and understand what salvation even means.
You have no wrath to be saved from, no holiness of God to be upheld, no atonement to be made in Christ.
And yet you don't care about another man's soul, you just want to get your little "diss" on me about your twisted Gospel.
The Lord rebuke you.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Even within the context of the Mosaic law itself. There isn't damnation to be found in what Adam and Eve did.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Most people ignore their own sin and blame it on others. Just like PSA does.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Holiness requires a nature of forgiveness. It is the only means to be both Just and the Justifier of others.
Does Satan forgive? Just curious if you've ever considered such things in your theology?
civic
Active Member
Jesus forgives sin many times without a sacrifice or payment for their sins.
Let the PSA advocates stumble over the Rock of offense
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. "
Perhaps we should go with nowhere is scripture did Jesus claim to be God. Even in the passage I gave, it is only assumed that that is what He was saying. And again, as you see above, Paul is clear that we were dead in our transgressions and sin before God made us alive with Christ. That is, we were unbelievers, unrighteous, wicked, evil, reprobates who like the rest, were by nature (sin nature) deserving of wrath. So we deserved wrath because we were sinners. So the point that I made that you were once an unbeliever stands.
Isaiah 53:
"Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
Considered punished by God, stricken by Him and afflicted. That is the wrath seen by us. This is the human view. Some, apparently such as yourself, stop there and don't go into the next verse, which gives God's view. While we see this, God sees His purpose. His Son pierced for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities. By what? God's justice. The requirement for the fulfillment of the Law, which Jesus said He came here to fulfill. It isn't about the wrath, but by what it brought. "By His wounds... By His stripes, WE ARE HEALED." You forget the purpose. Continue reading with the purpose in mind.
"He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
All of this was done to Jesus, all of this, signed off on by the Father. And Jesus faced it willingly. There is no division in the trinity. Jesus faced this all willingly. He faced being forsaken due to the iniquity He bore (seen earlier above), which was not forsaken as in, and today I disown you, but the inability of the Father to look upon sin. Again, Jesus faced this willingly. There was no rendering of the trinity, for Jesus was not forsaken as we consider it. Again, it was that the Father could not/would not look upon sin. (Not guilt but sin.) All of this ended, all of this came to an end the moment Jesus said "It is finished". He didn't mean, some things were finished, with more left to do. ALL OF IT. Consider the rest in the light of the understanding that all of man's actions, man's/Satan's wrath, was, like with Job, approved and permitted by the Father. All the pain, all the suffering.
"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
I don't emphasize all of it because it is all the same. The blessings, praise and honor poured out on Jesus by the Father because of what Jesus endured at the hands of man through the Father. It pleased the Father to crush Him. What does that mean? Again, you have to view this from God's viewpoint which is Jesus sacrifice. The Father is not thinking "Jesus stricken by God", He is thinking Jesus pierced for our transgressions, and the remission of the sins of His children through Jesus shed blood. We, in our human flesh and nature, focus on the pain and suffering Jesus went through, and don't look beyond that when we consider the wrath Jesus faced. You have to see it from God's point of view. It was all part of the sacrifice, and the sacrifice is all that mattered/matters. Jesus knew this (obviously).
And if you want to know Jesus' feelings on this, "After He has suffered, He will see the light of life and be satisfied". That does not sound like any kind of division in the trinity to me. Sounds like He was a willing volunteer the whole time. Notice how God in the last verses balances the blessings next to the pain and suffering Jesus went through. The point that we are to see is that Jesus went through all of this pain and suffering at the hands of man through the Father, for us. What did Jesus pray at the end of His time in the Garden of Gethsemane? Not My will, but Thine be done. So everything that happened is from the Father. The Father's will. Like with Job. Satan asked God for permission, and without batting an eye, He said sure. And let Satan do all kinds of things to Job, and made it clear that it was His will by setting boundaries.
The point of PSA should not be any kind of focus on the wrath, because we are human and we don't truly understand/comprehend all that it means. The focus is the penal substition. Our sin with its penalty was imputed on Christ, by which He fulfilled the Law of death by His dying on the cross, and His righteousness was imputed to us by His fulfillment of the Law of death. We stand clothed in Christ's righteousness, having had our dirty rags removed, bathed in the blood, and given new clean clothes. (Yes, I took that from Zechariah, so I may have abused it a little... it was meant to speak of the high priest being made king, a prophecy alluding to Christ, the only King of Israel who is worthy and acceptable to God to stand as High Priest and King.)
So again, no focus on wrath, it is understood. Just as by believing in Jesus works, they understood that what Jesus claimed was true. They were accepting all they saw, which was the Father in Christ and Christ in the Father, by the works Jesus did.
civic
Active Member
By the hands of wicked men He suffered punishment if you leave out through the Father part. If by through you mean allow I'm on board.
Look at the passage again: "Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted" The emphasis reason is the first part is speaking of what Jesus knows and sees. He willingly took up our pain and bore our suffering. The emphasised part is our view as corrupt man. How we saw God's wrath as spoken of in this passage. Right after this God says more about His view, and makes this clear by beginning with the word "BUT": "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed." This is what God is saying it is all about. This is why I say that just talking about the wrath of God is complicated. We are shown how we consider it, and then how God Himself considers it, and see in this passage alone... it isn't the same thing.
It continues on with all the evil things that befell Jesus, things that no Father would allow for their Son... without purpose. How are we shown this? The verse that follows that begins with "YET": ""Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer," However this is to show how it was. The Father allowed everything to happen BECAUSE it was His will. It didn't please Him by pleasure. It met and satisfied His justice. In that way it pleased Him/satisfied Him. And why? "and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin," He was made an offering for sin (the final offering for sin). How do we know it isn't out of anger or spite? "he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand." It is ALL about the sacrifice for sin. And Jesus willingly accepted it.
Was there a rift in the trinity? No. God says in Isaiah "After he has suffered, he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];"
I tried to shorten what was probably TLDR. Allow is part of it, but it is deeper. Because, to allow is to approve and to get behind. The problem with this understnading is that we immediately switch to the human point of view "yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him and afflicted." You have to take God's point of view. Everything He allowed was everything His justice REQUIRED, and Jesus went through willingly. If you have trouble understanding/accepting, as I believe I said in the past, accept/believe that God knew what He was doing even when we can't understand/accept/comprehend.
civic
Active Member
“ we “ considered him smitten by God, not God smote him.
It’s their POV not that God did it to him
How are you missing it. Everything we are considering is because He surely took up our pain and bore our suffering. God is saying that yet we consider Him taking up our pain and bearing our suffering as Him being punished by God, stricken by Him, and afflicted. Why? Because of what Him taking up our pain and bearing our suffering looked like. The appearance will be that God is punishing Jesus, and that Jesus is stricken and afflicted by God. Kind of like you at the moment. (Hear it out.) You wish to see God's wrath presented in what Jesus is going through as having to mean God is punishing Jesus and that Jesus is being stricken and afflicted by God. Isaiah is saying that that is not what it means because "Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering." In other words, the wrath of God present in Christ's crucifixion is Jesus taking up our pain and bearing our suffering. That is the same as saying that due to our sin, our pain and the suffering we bear is from God. This was transferred to Jesus as part of Him taking our penalty and sin. He willingly faced and took what as ours (the wrath of God) in taking up our pain and bearing our suffering as part of His death on the cross, and the events surrounding it.
It pleased God to crush Him. Again, that has nothing to do with pleasure, but that Jesus fulfilled God's will for Him with His death on the cross. It all has to do with what God held against us, he instead held against Christ. That is all. You have to get passed being these people who, even though God has explained what is to take place to this person, it still says that they yet considered him punished by God... They couldn't see the big picture, the whole of all that occurred. You didn't read the whole thing again.
