PSA as central to the Gospel

[civic]

@Joe

Joe, without going into depth on every point, (on some I may) for if I did, this would take many post, since your post was long, which to me, is okay, no problem, for I understand that it is impossible to make very short post and truly answer the post you are attempting to answer.

Joe, Christ's redeeming work was only for those given to him of Father by God's election of grace.

John 17:2​

“As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.”

And he did~both among the Jews and Gentiles. The world in John 3:16 does not mean all without exceptions, because God does make exceptions and is easily proven ~ but all without "distinction".

I will stop you in your tracks right at the beginning since your premise is in serious error. These Greek lexicons prove you are in grave error as do the scriptures.


These Greek Lexicons affirm world means all, everyone, the whole world without exception.

Thayers

Cosmos: the inhabitants of the

5. world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7 (yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17.

6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5; λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.


1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15-17-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

1 John 5:19- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone with no exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.

Only someone with a closed mind trapped in their dogma/doctrine would argue otherwise resulting in eisegesis( reading their own ideas into the text) rather than exegesis ( letting the text dictate ones ideas ).

We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.

So if the above truth from 1 John 2:2 which is clear as to the biblical meaning is all inclusive not exclusive ( Gods elect Jew/Gentiles) which comes from ones dogma/doctrine ( calvinism) and not Scripture and specifically in 1 John makes me a non calvinist then I'm here to official renounce my association with that group.

I'm all about the TRUTH never dogma, never the doctrines of men, never to win friends, but to only uphold the Truth in Gods word from its context. And the context here is in clear opposition to the teaching of Calvinsm in 1 John. World NEVER means Jew/Gentiles in the epistle but means all of the inhabitants of the world /cosmos who are ungodly , where the lust of the flesh, the pride of life and the lust of the eyes come from and the god of this world the evil one the spirit of antichrist , the spirit of falsehoods rules and reigns in all of those inhabitants in opposition to God.

Its that world whom Christ made propitiation. Doctrine/Dogma will never cloud my mind and I will seek, search truth until my dying day and never allow any systematic theology or bias to cloud my view of Scripture.

The Golden Rule of Interpretation

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society

hope this helps !!!

 

[Red Baker]

@Joe

If your understanding of Isaiah is correct, then why don't we read that God expended wrath on His Son to save us? You will not find one passage in the NT where punish, punished, punishment, or wrath was used to describe anything from God upon His Son. It simply is not there, as it is not in the OT either. And if it is not in the New, which fulfills the Old, what does that indicate to you about your understanding of the Old?

Thank you for your patience in allowing me to at least finish with your post.

You said: "The New Testament is the fulfillment and commentary of the Old Testament." Agreed.

You said: "then why don't we read that God expended wrath on His Son to save us? You will not find one passage in the NT where punish, punished, punishment, or wrath was used to describe anything from God upon His Son. It simply is not there,"

Joe, it is there in a few places:

Romans 5:10​

“For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

Galatians 3:13​

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:”

2nd Corinthians 5:21​

“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

1 Peter 2:24​

“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”

1st Peter 3:18​

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:”

Many mor could be given, but enough for now.

You said: "It simply is not there, as it is not in the OT either." We are almost finished with Isaiah 53 that is very clear that Christ suffered in our place, the just for the unjust, that we might be made the righteousness of God through him, and we were. I have not even looked at Psalm 22 yet, but shall.

You asked: "what does that indicate to you about your understanding of the Old?" I think Isaiah 53 is clear and no one has of yet taken what I have said and prove it wrong.

You need to realize some of us stopped believing reformed doctrine and that PSA is central to the Gospel because God was involved and enlightened us. I can share my witness if you'd like.

This is not a Reformed teaching as though it came from them. The Particular Baptist (Samuel Richardson, John Gill, John Brine and many, many others) have always taught what I'm teaching and they were not accepted by the reformers~never been part of them and never will. That's not to say that God does not have some of his children among them for no doubt he does, but in good faith I could not be with them on many of their teachings. I do not believe in baptizing babies, Covenant Theology, etc.

Coming back...Rb

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

Its that world whom Christ made propitiation. Doctrine/Dogma will never cloud my mind and I will seek, search truth until my dying day and never allow any systematic theology or bias to cloud my view of Scripture.

Let me get finished with answering Joe, and then I will talk with you on this post of yours, no problem.

 

[DavidTree]

@Joe

Thank you for your well presented post, I will answer this I trust before the sun goes down this afternoon.

One quick note before I head out to take care of a few things. I have never said it pleased the LORD Jehovah to see his wrath pour out toward his Son, never. Yet it please the Lord to busied Christ, not to see his bodily anguished, but KNOWING that this was the only means whereby his elect could be made the righteousness of God and Justice satisfied perfectly. There was no other way.

Again, thank you for your post, and I shall respond shortly.

They are making the SAME MISTAKE that the pre-fibbers do!

They assume the wrath of God is the same as the punishment which was placed upon JESUS on our behalf.

 

[Red Baker]

@Joe

Our Lord Jesus Christ willingly offered His life to become a curse on our behalf to ransom those under the Law, for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”. He purchased the freedom of those under the Law, so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might also come to us Gentiles; that we would all receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. He carried our sins in His body, and the curse that came with it under the Law was to ransom those under the Law.

Well, I would almost agree 100% with this ~with one exception....You said: "that we would all receive the promise of the Spirit through faith" ~ You and others believe legally we receive the blessing of Abraham through our faith, and that is not the truth; what we receive through faith is the "KNOWLEDGE OF THIS TRUTH" by faith...it is by the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ is the promise secured for his children, a huge different ~ the difference between works and pure grace.

Jesus our Lord was not made sin. He was made a sin offering. Even you have stated as such at the very end of your post, "God making his Son an offering for our sins".

The verse is a center of controversy and contested in Christianity of what it means and translates as. IE: Bill Mounce, a Calvinist variant who teaches biblical Greek agrees the verse should be properly translated as sin offering. The Orthodox Jewish Bible translates it as, "The one who in his person had no da’as of chattat (sin), this one Hashem made a chattat (sin) offering. There are more translations that translate it as sin offering instead of sin.

Sin is an act of disobedience. How does one become an act of disobedience?

For He made Him who knew no disobedience to be disobedience for us. This doesn't work. It does not match anything God illustrates in the OT.

The NLT states it well: For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ...This is what you see consistently in the OT and the NT with sin offerings. And you even stated, "God making his Son an offering for our sins".

The scriptures disagree with you. If Christ was made a sin offering, then he was made sin for us just as Paul said.

2 Corinthians 5:21​

“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

"Christ was made sin itself by imputation; the sins of all his people were transferred unto him, laid upon him, and placed to his account; he sustained their persons, and bore their sins; and having them upon him, and being chargeable with, and answerable for them, he was treated by the justice of God as if he had been not only a sinner, but a mass of sin; for to be made sin, is a stronger expression than to be made a sinner: but now that this may appear to be only by imputation, and that none may conclude from hence that he was really and actually a sinner, or in himself so, it is said he was "made sin"; he did not become sin, or a sinner, through any sinful act of his own, but through his Father's act of imputation, to which he agreed; for it was "he" that made him sin: it is not said that men made him sin; not but that they traduced him as a sinner, pretended they knew he was one, and arraigned him at Pilate's bar as such; nor is he said to make himself so, though he readily engaged to be the surety of his people, and voluntarily took upon him their sins, and gave himself an offering for them; but he, his Father, is said to make him sin; it was he that "laid," or "made to meet" on him, the iniquity of us all; it was he that made his soul an offering for sin, and delivered him up into the hands of justice, and to death, and that "for us," in "our" room and stead, to bear the punishment of sin, and make satisfaction and atonement for it; of which he was capable, and for which he was greatly qualified" ~John Gill

Here is one of the plainest statements of justification, reconciliation, and salvation in the Bible. There is no possibility or potential in this transaction, for God purposed it and did it (Ephesians 1:11). Legally speaking, reconciliation was completed by Jesus Christ at Calvary (Romans 4:25; 5:10). Legal transactions are in God’s mind, but as binding as any other transaction (Romans 5:12-19). God viewed the elect from eternity as reconciled, but He actually provided the price at the cross.

Consider the two incredible sides of the most fantastic legal settlement made in the world’s history.

First, God put our sins on sinless Jesus Christ, Who then died as a Substitute for them (Isaiah 53:4-12; Daniel 9:24; Romans 5:6-10,15-21; Ist Corinthians 15:3; Hebrews 9:15; 10:10-14; Ist Pet 2:24; 3:18; Revelation 1:5; 5:9)!

Second, God put the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ on us, by choosing us acceptable in Him (Acts 10:34-35; Romans 3:21-26; 5:15-21; 8:3-4; Ist Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 1:3-6; Philippians 3:9)!

May finish tomorrow.

 

[brightfame52]

1 John 5:19- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

The whole world in 1 Jn 5:19 didn't include John and other believers he wrote to. He clearly differentiate between we and the whole world lying in the wicked one.

 

[civic]

The whole world in 1 Jn 5:19 didn't include John and other believers he wrote to. He clearly differentiate between we and the whole world lying in the wicked one.

Yet prior to Christ he was of the world

Next fallacy

 

[brightfame52]

Yet prior to Christ he was of the world

Next fallacy

You missing the point, the whole world in 1 Jn 5:19 doesnt include believers.

 

[Hosanna]

Both John and his readers "know that we are from God." Though it is true believers are created in God's image (Genesis 1:27), the context indicates the idea of salvation or being born again. Believers are children of God (John 1:12) and are from God spiritually and relationally.

John again notes that Satan has spiritual control over the entire world. John has already noted the believers he is writing to have overcome the evil one (1 John 2:13–14), mentioning Satan as the "evil one" also in 1 John 3:12 and 1 John 5:18. This letter has also spoken previously of the power of the world (1 John 2:15–17). Jesus prayed to the Father to keep believers from Satan (John 17:15). Believers are to use the armor of God against the evil one (Ephesians 6:16), knowing God will guard us against him (2 Thessalonians 3:3). The "world" is also mentioned in the first chapter of the Gospel of John, as something created by Jesus, and from which He takes away sins (John 1:9–10, 29).

Bible Ref

Chapter 5 concludes the book of 1 John, once again emphasizing the supremacy of love in the Christian experience. Those who put their faith in Christ can know, for sure, that they have eternal life. This assurance comes by trusting what we know of the life of Jesus Christ, as well as the evidence of the Holy Spirit within us. Following God's commands, particularly love, results in confidence of our salvation, as well as strength against the temptations of the world.

 

[Red Baker]

@Joe

There is nowhere in the bible where God is said to have credited our sins to Jesus or His righteousness to us.

See #202, and #205 above.

Just as God credited Abraham's faith as his righteousness, God credits our faith in His Son as our righteousness. "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ". We've been justified through faith, believing that our Lord's death justifies us with God. "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

I highlighted your statements to show your confusion, but you are not alone. We are not legally justified by our faith and still are justified by the blood of Christ legally, both "cannot" be true. The truth is we are legally justified by the life, death, (blood) and resurrection of Jesus Christ alone. Justification is used in different senses in the scriptures and we must study to rightly divide the truth, or else we be confused and confuse others who hear us.

Galatians 3:6​

“Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

This is the most popular Bible quotation (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23).

Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham’s worship. The adverbial phrase, even as, means that there is a very strong comparison to be seen. Paul has been mentioning faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it. The Galatians stood by faith (2:16; 3:1-5); God approved Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6). This is precious and sweet, if only we grasp Paul introduced Abraham as father to Gentiles! The Judaizer false teachers could only offer some connection to Moses by circumcision.

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism of Judaizers. All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matthew 3:9; John 8:33; Exodus 3:6). For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith. For those trusting circumcision, (or baptism) Abraham was declared righteous before it (Romans 4:9-12). For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Romans 4:13-16; Galatians 3:17).

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Genesis 15:6).

Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time?

Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about legal justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions. Arminians hold conditional justification ~ faith is the human condition for righteousness. Calvinists hold instrumental justification ~ faith is the instrument receiving righteousness. We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation. The difference is significant –~ is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it "only" the evidence of righteousness?

Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Genesis 12:1-4; Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24). If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted! Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Genesis 14:18-20)?

Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Genesis 15:1)! If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Ps 106:30-31)! Joe, we ask you:

Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?

Why was this event singled out and quoted more in the New Testament than any passage? Abel, Enoch, and Noah were ignored, because they were not the “father” of Israel, though they proved their righteous character by their faith long before Abraham (Heb 11:4-7). God wrote Genesis 15:6 for the future use of Paul in showing the important role of faith to Jews trusting the Law that came 430 years later and to Gentiles that had no Law at all! Our faith is the clearest evidence that we are already legally justified by the faith and obedience of ONE, Jesus Christ. Our faith is NOT our righteousness, Christ is, and him alone.

Later....

 

[Red Baker]

The only imputation is God crediting our faith just as He did with our father of the faith, Abraham. "So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham."

Again, see post #200 above.

Concerning God imputing our sins to Christ and his righteousness to us consider David's words:

Psalms 32:1,2​

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.”

"Pardoning mercy is of all things in the world most to be prized, for it is the only and sure way to happiness. To hear from God's own Spirit the words, "absolvo te" is joy unspeakable. Blessedness is not in this case ascribed to the man who has been a diligent law keeper, for then it would never come to us, but rather to a lawbreaker, who by grace most rich and free has been forgiven. Self righteous Pharisees have no portion in this blessedness. Over the returning prodigal, the word of welcome is here pronounced, and the music and dancing begin. A full, instantaneous, irreversible pardon of transgression turns the poor sinner's hell into heaven, and makes the heir of wrath a partaker in blessing." C.H. Spurgeon

Paul used Davis words here:

Romans 4:6-8​

“Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”

"Righteousness imputed without works." He is blessed indeed who has a substitute to stand for him to whose account all his debts may be set down. And in whose spirit there is no guile. David’s 32nd Psalm describes and lists the blessings of sinners being forgiven and justified.

The forgiveness of sins, especially the legal aspect of such, is a great blessing (Ephesains 1:3-7). The covering of sins, so that even God cannot remember them, is a great blessing (Hebrews 8:12). The refusal to count, account, reckon, consider, esteem, or regard a man as a sinner – through the substitutionary work of Jesus Christ, of course – is a great blessing (Romans 3:23-26; 2nd Corinthians 5:21).

Unto whom God imputeth righteousness.

Impute. To reckon or take into account; to reckon, regard, consider. Here is the first of six uses of the verb impute in this chapter of Romans (4:6,8,11,22,23,24). Remember, from 4:3 above, that impute is a synonym with count, account, and reckon. God counts, accounts, reckons, regards, or considers men righteous without works.

Without works.

How does Psalm 32 deny works? Since there is no such negative statement in Psalm 32:1-2. How does Psalm 32 deny works? By virtue of its positive statement of a God-given blessing and its silence about any works or other conditions being the moving cause for God’s gift.

The only imputation is God crediting our faith just as He did with our father of the faith, Abraham. "So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham."

You need to reconsider your position ~only the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ is the legal grounds of one being justiified freely by God's grace.

That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”

Abraham's faith was "not" his righteousness! That's another gospel based on pure works. Our righteousness is what Christ secured for us, since we had NONE, even the very faith we live by today, is the very faith produced by our new man, which was created after the image of Jesus Christ, have you truly never consider carefully theses words:

Galatians 2:20​

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

Coming back later today, the Lord willing.

 

[Red Baker]

@Joe

The only thing that concerns me is you think you have it all figured out. As for Isaiah, he is on the side of God, such as us.

I did not know just how close I was finishing, so a few words and I'm finished, and I want to thank you for your patience in allowing me to at least answer your post to me, that was very considerate on your part.

Joe, I would not be as bold if I thought I did not understand this truth, after all I have been teaching this for over fifty plus years, and since I first came to Christ at the age of twenty six. I'm sure you think you have it all figured out, or you would not be as bold (in a godly manner I want to say) as you seem to be. On this particular subject I have given myself many hours in mediations, reading, prayer, and I admit, there's always room to gain more understanding, which we know that to be so, afterall, we all live in a body of sin and death subject to errors. We will leave this world with errors and without our understanding being perfect, but, I desire before God is to be a perfect as much as we can before we leave this world and see our Lord.

Yes, praise the Lord! We all agree that God sent His Son into this world as one of us, to die for our sins and rise and to give us eternal life.

I agree my brother. With this I leave you with what I have written and before God I desire to be as perfect as I can, yet knowing I'm flesh and blood subject to come up short in most of what I do. The Lord be with you Joe.

 

[brightfame52]

@Joe

The only imputation is God crediting our faith just as He did with our father of the faith, Abraham. "So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

Your understanding makes your faith your righteousness. Only Christ is a True believers righteousness, made known to him or her through Faith, so it was the object of Abrahams Faith that was credited to him as righteousness, that would be Christ the seed of the woman who be of his loins, as He was of Davids loins . Abraham believing gave evidence he was a righteous, justified man

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

I will stop you in your tracks right at the beginning since your premise is in serious error. These Greek lexicons prove you are in grave error as do the scriptures.

I'm not in the least interested about what "These Greek lexicons prove"~ and truly neither should you be. Use the scriptures that God has graciously given to his children and trust them to deliver the truth to you and they will, if there is true faith searching for the truth in most instances. I have never picked up Greek lexicon and I'm not starting to do so now, there is no need to do so.

Acts 17:11
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

Noble saints search God's word for truth, men who think they are wise, or who lack faith, look elsewhere to try to find the truth, and they always come up empty, God will make sure of that.

1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

I'll be more than happy to address any scripture you put before me, no problem.

John who was sent unto the circumcision, and Paul unto the the Gentiles use the word world to include the Gentiles with the Jews, for before Christ's coming into the world, the gospel was limited to the Jewness nation as a whole, with a few exceptions here and there.

John quoting Jesus' words to Nicodemus one of the leaders of the Jew said these well known words:

John 3:16​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

World there means Gentiles as well as Jews, yet among each of them, God has children of his promises. World does not mean ALL without exception, (as you think it does) but all without distinction! Which should be clear to any one who understands such scriptures as:

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

Because we understand John 3:16! Up until Christ's coming, God was the God of the Hebrews, no other nation under heaven, yet NOT ALL OF THEM were his children, for we understand such scriptures as:

Romans 9:7​

“Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

God has his children of his promises (his elect) among both the Jews and Gentiles. For God's love is not limited the the Jews only but also among the Gentiles God has an elect people that he is calling out among them!

1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

See above! Also, consider whom John was sent unto and then it should be clear as to why he said what he said.

Galatians 2:9​

“And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”

So, as John wrote unto them and used the word world, it should be clear as to why he said what he said. This is the only sense one can put upon the word world as John used it in most every case he did so.

Only someone with a closed mind trapped in their dogma/doctrine would argue otherwise resulting in eisegesis( reading their own ideas into the text) rather than exegesis

Like you and other do? I agree.

( letting the text dictate ones ideas ).

Then why use the Greek lexicons? I use only the scriptures, and all let context drive the true understanding of the verses. Context is king, not the Greek lexicons, etc.

I'm all about the TRUTH never dogma,

or any other means men may put forth, So I'm I even more so than you. I truth the scriptures God first gave to our forefathers and only them, to give me the truth.

The Golden Rule of Interpretation

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society

This is not true in many instances, especially so in eschatology! I rather practice:

Nehemiah 8:8
"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."

So, we just did that above by comparing John 3:16, with such scriptures as Romans 3:29; Romans 9:24; etc.

 

[civic]

@civic

I'm not in the least interested about what "These Greek lexicons prove"~ and truly neither should you be. Use the scriptures that God has graciously given to his children and trust them to deliver the truth to you and they will, if there is true faith searching for the truth in most instances. I have never picked up Greek lexicon and I'm not starting to do so now, there is no need to do so.

Acts 17:11
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

Noble saints search God's word for truth, men who think they are wise, or who lack faith, look elsewhere to try to find the truth, and they always come up empty, God will make sure of that.

I'll be more than happy to address any scripture you put before me, no problem.

John who was sent unto the circumcision, and Paul unto the the Gentiles use the word world to include the Gentiles with the Jews, for before Christ's coming into the world, the gospel was limited to the Jewness nation as a whole, with a few exceptions here and there.

John quoting Jesus' words to Nicodemus one of the leaders of the Jew said these well known words:

John 3:16​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

World there means Gentiles as well as Jews, yet among each of them, God has children of his promises. World does not mean ALL without exception, (as you think it does) but all without distinction! Which should be clear to any one who understands such scriptures as:

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

Because we understand John 3:16! Up until Christ's coming, God was the God of the Hebrews, no other nation under heaven, yet NOT ALL OF THEM were his children, for we understand such scriptures as:

Romans 9:7​

“Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

God has his children of his promises (his elect) among both the Jews and Gentiles. For God's love is not limited the the Jews only but also among the Gentiles God has an elect people that he is calling out among them!

See above! Also, consider whom John was sent unto and then it should be clear as to why he said what he said.

Galatians 2:9​

“And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”

So, as John wrote unto them and used the word world, it should be clear as to why he said what he said. This is the only sense one can put upon the word world as John used it in most every case he did so.

Like you and other do? I agree.

Then why use the Greek lexicons? I use only the scriptures, and all let context drive the true understanding of the verses. Context is king, not the Greek lexicons, etc.

or any other means men may put forth, So I'm I even more so than you. I truth the scriptures God first gave to our forefathers and only them, to give me the truth.

This is not true in many instances, especially so in eschatology! I rather practice:

Nehemiah 8:8
"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."

So, we just did that above by comparing John 3:16, with such scriptures as Romans 3:29; Romans 9:24; etc.

I see you ran away like the plague from the truth about the cosmos , world and all the scriptures proving your doctrine is in error

 

[brightfame52]

I see ran ran away like the plague from the truth about the cosmos , world and all the scriptures proving your doctrine is in error

Actually he dealt with it, so why would you say that ?

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

I see you ran away like the plague from the truth about the cosmos , world and all the scriptures proving your doctrine is in error

Sir, if that makes you feel good about your doctrine, so be it.... just as @brightfame52 rightly said, I dealt with you position, and if you think you can prove me wrong, then do it.

Sir, I did not run from you post, but addressed it with scriptures. Why would you say that?

 

[civic]

@civic

Sir, if that makes you feel good about your doctrine, so be it.... just as @brightfame52 rightly said, I dealt with you position, and if you think you can prove me wrong, then do it.

Sir, I did not run from you post, but addressed it with scriptures. Why would you say that?

You did not address any scriptures I posted which proved the definition from the lexicon was correct.

 

[brightfame52]

@civic

Sir, if that makes you feel good about your doctrine, so be it.... just as @brightfame52 rightly said, I dealt with you position, and if you think you can prove me wrong, then do it.

Sir, I did not run from you post, but addressed it with scriptures. Why would you say that?

Thats the very reason why I dont address all them scriptures, its like you didnt do it. Just trust one of the elect somewhere was edified by it.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

You did not address any scriptures I posted which proved the definition from the lexicon was correct.

Civic, the scriptures are inspired not any books written by man, which you truly believe that to be so, so what's problem ~do you truly believe this to be true? Maybe I'm mistaken. The scriptures alone are profitable for doctrine, that the man of God may be perfect "throughly furnished" by our Lord with all he needs!

2nd Timothy 3:16​

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

You and others must think we need more than just the scriptures, I do not, and never have believe that to be so