PSA as central to the Gospel

@civic @DavidTree
yes the unbiblical doctrine of the secret will. yikes
No secret for his children, only toward the wicked who had Christ put to death through their hatred of the truth and his perfect life of obedience to the will of God for his elect.

1st Corinthians 2:6​

“Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”
 
@praise_yeshua
Your soteriology is identical to most every Independent Baptist I've ever met and I know many of them.
Not even close, so you obviously know much less than you think you know especially concerning me. But, I'm not going to waste very much time with folks like you, for there's no profit in doing so. I have never put a person on the ignore list, but if I do, you would be the first one, since you have not made one attempt to take what I have said and prove it wrong~you have post #175 start with that one.
 

Isaiah 53:11​

“He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

The satisfaction for sin was completed when the Holy God was reconciled by Christ’s death, for He made peace with divine justice by His cross (Colossians 1:20-22; 2nd Corinthians 5:18-21; Romans 5:10). God the Father saw the travail of Christ’s soul, and God the Father was satisfied. The sense is not that Jesus saw the travail of His own soul, for such a sense does not fit the flow of the context, nor is it strictly correct for understanding the doctrine of satisfaction (2nd Corinthians 5:18-21).

The satisfaction that Jesus made for us to divine justice is in the Scriptures represented as reconciliation, justification, propitiation, making peace, slaying enmity, etc., etc.

Jesus is here called God’s righteous Servant, to exonerate Him from any sins of His own. Jesus is not the object of the knowledge, making it our knowledge; but rather He is the subject and possessor of the knowledge, for our justification is by His perfect knowledge of God’s will.

What a travesty that some will interject man’s faith and knowledge into our legal justification ~ which is what most do.

The knowledge Jesus Christ possessed was that faith and confidence in God that led Him all His life; which took Him through Gethsemane, His horrible trial, and His miserable crucifixion, until He could finally commit His spirit to His Father; and that perfect knowledge of His will.

He had great in faith and trust in God, as His enemies admitted (Psalm 16:8; Hebrews 2:13; Matthew 27:43).

Justification is by the obedience "of One", and He obeyed in both life and death (Romans 5:15-19).

Jesus Christ bore our sins – as a substitutionary sacrifice ~ in His own body on the tree ~ the cross of Calvary (Ist Peter 2:24; 2nd Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 9:28; Galatians 3:13). All of these scriptures proves his penal suffering in the place of his people, from birth, to Calvary, to the tomb where he was raised from the dead by the power of God, and us with him legally speaking~Ephesians 2:4-7...... to the right hand of God where we sit legally in him. May the LORD be praise.
 
@civic @DavidTree

No secret for his children, only toward the wicked who had Christ put to death through their hatred of the truth and his perfect life of obedience to the will of God for his elect.

1st Corinthians 2:6​

“Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”
That’s not any secret will nice try
 
That’s not any secret will nice try
Please explain:

1st Corinthians 2:6​

“Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”
 
@praise_yeshua

Not even close, so you obviously know much less than you think you know especially concerning me. But, I'm not going to waste very much time with folks like you, for there's no profit in doing so. I have never put a person on the ignore list, but if I do, you would be the first one, since you have not made one attempt to take what I have said and prove it wrong~you have post #175 start with that one.

I don't obey you. I have made several comments on your claims. You're ignoring them. You start @ #166 and work forward.

You don't know what soteriology is. You claim you only knew IFBs for a short time and now you pretend you know everything about them.

Again. It rather evident that you don't mind lying at all. Which is it? You know them or don't know them?

You're falling behind.
 
Nothing secret about Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22

People like him love to talk about "secret" revelations that they say they are only a part of a few that "understand".

Funny how they post references to thousands of year old prophecy's as evidence. They should just claim "special revelation" and just walk away.

That is what it always comes down to.
 
Last edited:
Please explain:

It certainly is hidden from you. It isn't that God hasn't said anything. He has. People like you just don't believe it.

That is what unbelief does to people like you. You don't want to believe what is clearly stated.

2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

You preach yourself. That is what always happens. PSA fosters a sense of entitlement among those claiming God. After all, God chose you right?

2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

There is a vail upon your heart and you don't understand "plainness of speech".

I'm ready for you though. Why don't we gather among peers and discuss this? I keep offering and you keep ignoring.
 
Please explain:

How about reading more....

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
 
Jesus Christ bore our sins – as a substitutionary sacrifice ~ in His own body on the tree ~ the cross of Calvary (Ist Peter 2:24; 2nd Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 9:28; Galatians 3:13). All of these scriptures proves his penal suffering in the place of his people, from birth, to Calvary, to the tomb where he was raised from the dead by the power of God, and us with him legally speaking~Ephesians 2:4-7...... to the right hand of God where we sit legally in him. May the LORD be praise.

So how did Christ suffer as a "substitutionary sacrifice" when Christ isn't literally in hell for you right now? This is the type of atonement you preach. Yet Jesus is alive..... right?

I keep reminding you of this and you keep ignoring it.
 
Again. It rather evident that you don't mind lying at all. Which is it? You know them or don't know them?
I know them well since I live on the buckle of the bible belt! I have lived in Greenville, S.C. area for over fifty three years~BJU, Gospel Hour and Tabernacle Baptist church all within a few miles of each other.

So, I'm finish talking to you no more post between us, your spirit should be avoided. You are the first person I have put on the ignore list. I do not mind discussing scriptures, even if they get heated, with anyone, yet, I'm not going to discourse with a man like you are displaying.
 

Yeah. Reminds of how Paul criticized those at Corinth for not passing on what they knew.

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

It is this endless cycle of "I know, but you can't know". "God showed me, but I can't share it with you"......

It is really silly. At so many levels is just preposterous. No matter what, they never blame themselves.
 
I know them well since I live on the buckle of the bible belt! I have lived in Greenville, S.C. area for over fifty three years~BJU, Gospel Hour and Tabernacle Baptist church all within a few miles of each other.

So, I'm finish talking to you no more post between us, your spirit should be avoided.

Well, at least NOW you know them..... How about sticking with this "tale" from now on.

Why are you always the beneficiary of whatever you claim...... whether it is true or not?

Bob Jones.... please......

I know the men they produce. One of them I know enjoys protecting a child molestor. I know the victims.

You know.... those "whited sepulchres" that don't mind sin at all as long it is "hidden"...

Funny how you want to talk about "hidden things"? Maybe focus on sin that is hidden next time....

1Ti 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
 
His eternal purposes in order for Christ to secures eternal life for God's elect.
God's eternal purpose in His plan of salvation was accomplished by His Son's death for taking away the sin-guilt of the whole world, everyone, each man, which is to be received by believing in His Son. "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

The serpent that was lifted up by Moses provided life by God's grace for those bitten, and only those who obeyed and looked upon the serpent lived all the others died. This is the same way with Jesus Christ. God gave His Son to be lifted up that those bitten with sin would live simply by believing in Him. Those who disbelieve have rejected the only means that God forgives and gives a new life of His Spirit. Salvation is for any and all who will believe in Jesus Christ.

You folks only have half of the truth, the main part of christ's mission you reject, thereby reject the truth of Christ Gospel.
We do not reject the truth of the Gospel of God. We reject the erroneous misunderstanding that God sent His Son into this world so that He could expend pent up wrath upon Him in order to forgive us.

The New Testament is the fulfillment and commentary of the Old Testament. If your understanding of Isaiah is correct, then why don't we read that God expended wrath on His Son to save us? You will not find one passage in the NT where punish, punished, punishment, or wrath was used to describe anything from God upon His Son. It simply is not there, as it is not in the OT either. And if it is not in the New, which fulfills the Old, what does that indicate to you about your understanding of the Old?

You need to realize some of us stopped believing reformed doctrine and that PSA is central to the Gospel because God was involved and enlightened us. I can share my witness if you'd like.

So I ask each one of you the following questions: 1) "Was it "expedient" for God's people that Christ died as an offering to God for our sins?"
Yes, it is better that the Lord die for all of us, everyone than all of us dying for our sins. Although the high priest Caiaphas did not mean it in the same way we take it, for he wanted to kill the Lord because he feared the Romans would take away even more of their national religious freedoms to prevent an uprising.

2) "Who made Christ a curse for us according to Galatians 3:13?"
Our Lord Jesus Christ willingly offered His life to become a curse on our behalf to ransom those under the Law, for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”. He purchased the freedom of those under the Law, so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might also come to us Gentiles; that we would all receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. He carried our sins in His body, and the curse that came with it under the Law was to ransom those under the Law.

Adam Clarke states it well: "That is, he has forfeited his life to the law; for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them; and on his body, in the execution of the sentence of the law, the curse was considered as alighting (come to rest)"

3) Who made Christ sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God according to 2nd Corinthians 5:21?
Jesus our Lord was not made sin. He was made a sin offering. Even you have stated as such at the very end of your post, "God making his Son an offering for our sins".

The verse is a center of controversy and contested in Christianity of what it means and translates as. IE: Bill Mounce, a Calvinist variant who teaches biblical Greek agrees the verse should be properly translated as sin offering. The Orthodox Jewish Bible translates it as, "The one who in his person had no da’as of chattat (sin), this one Hashem made a chattat (sin) offering. There are more translations that translate it as sin offering instead of sin.

Sin is an act of disobedience. How does one become an act of disobedience?

For He made Him who knew no disobedience to be disobedience for us. This doesn't work. It does not match anything God illustrates in the OT.

The NLT states it well: For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ...This is what you see consistently in the OT and the NT with sin offerings. And you even stated, "God making his Son an offering for our sins".

4) Was our sins imputed to Christ and his righteousness imputed to us? If yes, on what grounds?
There is nowhere in the bible where God is said to have credited our sins to Jesus or His righteousness to us.

Just as God credited Abraham's faith as his righteousness, God credits our faith in His Son as our righteousness. "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ". We've been justified through faith, believing that our Lord's death justifies us with God. "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

What we see displayed in the OT is that the death of the sin offering redeems/sets free the sinner for having died for the sinner's sins. "when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned" and "must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin."

The provision of the sin offering is not to impute/credit the sacrifice with the sins of the people. It is quite the opposite really with the blood-death of the sacrifice applied to the sins of the people. The victim of the sin offering is to die explicitly for, on the account of, because of the sins of the people so their sins could be forgiven since a death for them has been made. “Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins”.

How much greater is the death of our sinless Lord for our sins? "Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant." Heb 9:15

The only imputation is God crediting our faith just as He did with our father of the faith, Abraham. "So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham."

"No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification." (Rom 4:20-25)


5) Was Christ a private person or acting as federal head of his people? Please explain in a few words.
Jesus Christ is God in the flesh acting on behalf of both God and mankind to offer His life for the sins of every person. He is the head of His body, those who believe in Him.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." (Col 1:15-20)

6) Lastly, but by no means the least, did it please Jehovah God to bruise his Son? per Isaiah 53

Isaiah 53:10​

“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.”
Absolutely it pleased our Father! When we read the context of verses 53:10-12 we understand that when Jesus offered His soul for sin the pleasure-will of God will proper in His hand. He shall see His offspring-believers that are born again resulting from His death. He shall live and reign forever and so shall His seed. He shall justify many for He carried away their sins in His offering of His life. He shall inherit all things and share it with His offspring. He makes intercession for us.

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death" (Act 2:22-23)

The pleasure derived from our mercifully loving Father of delivering up His Son was to fulfill the purpose laid out in the verses that you think mean God delighted to pour out wrath upon Him. And it is simply not true. There is zero evidence of such. If so, please point it out in the NT writings that explain the OT.

I could ask so many more question but these are enough for now. Isaiah the prophet is not on your side, not even close, this should concern all of you.
The only thing that concerns me is you think you have it all figured out. As for Isaiah, he is on the side of God, such as us.

God gave his only begotten Son, knowing that there was no other ways to bring salvation to fallen humanity except through God making his Son an offering for our sins. Jesus Christ truly was the LAMB OF GOD to be sacrificed for the sins of his people.

John 1:29​

“The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”
Yes, praise the Lord! We all agree that God sent His Son into this world as one of us, to die for our sins and rise and to give us eternal life.

We disagree that God had to pour anger filled wrath upon His Son to feel good about saving us.

God Bless
 
God's eternal purpose in His plan of salvation was accomplished by His Son's death for taking away the sin-guilt of the whole world, everyone, each man, which is to be received by believing in His Son. "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

The serpent that was lifted up by Moses provided life by God's grace for those bitten, and only those who obeyed and looked upon the serpent lived all the others died. This is the same way with Jesus Christ. God gave His Son to be lifted up that those bitten with sin would live simply by believing in Him. Those who disbelieve have rejected the only means that God forgives and gives a new life of His Spirit. Salvation is for any and all who will believe in Jesus Christ.


We do not reject the truth of the Gospel of God. We reject the erroneous misunderstanding that God sent His Son into this world so that He could expend pent up wrath upon Him in order to forgive us.

The New Testament is the fulfillment and commentary of the Old Testament. If your understanding of Isaiah is correct, then why don't we read that God expended wrath on His Son to save us? You will not find one passage in the NT where punish, punished, punishment, or wrath was used to describe anything from God upon His Son. It simply is not there, as it is not in the OT either. And if it is not in the New, which fulfills the Old, what does that indicate to you about your understanding of the Old?

You need to realize some of us stopped believing reformed doctrine and that PSA is central to the Gospel because God was involved and enlightened us. I can share my witness if you'd like.


Yes, it is better that the Lord die for all of us, everyone than all of us dying for our sins. Although the high priest Caiaphas did not mean it in the same way we take it, for he wanted to kill the Lord because he feared the Romans would take away even more of their national religious freedoms to prevent an uprising.


Our Lord Jesus Christ willingly offered His life to become a curse on our behalf to ransom those under the Law, for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”. He purchased the freedom of those under the Law, so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might also come to us Gentiles; that we would all receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. He carried our sins in His body, and the curse that came with it under the Law was to ransom those under the Law.

Adam Clarke states it well: "That is, he has forfeited his life to the law; for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them; and on his body, in the execution of the sentence of the law, the curse was considered as alighting (come to rest)"


Jesus our Lord was not made sin. He was made a sin offering. Even you have stated as such at the very end of your post, "God making his Son an offering for our sins".

The verse is a center of controversy and contested in Christianity of what it means and translates as. IE: Bill Mounce, a Calvinist variant who teaches biblical Greek agrees the verse should be properly translated as sin offering. The Orthodox Jewish Bible translates it as, "The one who in his person had no da’as of chattat (sin), this one Hashem made a chattat (sin) offering. There are more translations that translate it as sin offering instead of sin.

Sin is an act of disobedience. How does one become an act of disobedience?

For He made Him who knew no disobedience to be disobedience for us. This doesn't work. It does not match anything God illustrates in the OT.

The NLT states it well: For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ...This is what you see consistently in the OT and the NT with sin offerings. And you even stated, "God making his Son an offering for our sins".


There is nowhere in the bible where God is said to have credited our sins to Jesus or His righteousness to us.

Just as God credited Abraham's faith as his righteousness, God credits our faith in His Son as our righteousness. "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ". We've been justified through faith, believing that our Lord's death justifies us with God. "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

What we see displayed in the OT is that the death of the sin offering redeems/sets free the sinner for having died for the sinner's sins. "when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned" and "must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin."

The provision of the sin offering is not to impute/credit the sacrifice with the sins of the people. It is quite the opposite really with the blood-death of the sacrifice applied to the sins of the people. The victim of the sin offering is to die explicitly for, on the account of, because of the sins of the people so their sins could be forgiven since a death for them has been made. “Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins”.

How much greater is the death of our sinless Lord for our sins? "Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant." Heb 9:15

The only imputation is God crediting our faith just as He did with our father of the faith, Abraham. "So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham."

"No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification." (Rom 4:20-25)



Jesus Christ is God in the flesh acting on behalf of both God and mankind to offer His life for the sins of every person. He is the head of His body, those who believe in Him.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." (Col 1:15-20)


Absolutely it pleased our Father! When we read the context of verses 53:10-12 we understand that when Jesus offered His soul for sin the pleasure-will of God will proper in His hand. He shall see His offspring-believers that are born again resulting from His death. He shall live and reign forever and so shall His seed. He shall justify many for He carried away their sins in His offering of His life. He shall inherit all things and share it with His offspring. He makes intercession for us.

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death" (Act 2:22-23)

The pleasure derived from our mercifully loving Father of delivering up His Son was to fulfill the purpose laid out in the verses that you think mean God delighted to pour out wrath upon Him. And it is simply not true. There is zero evidence of such. If so, please point it out in the NT writings that explain the OT.


The only thing that concerns me is you think you have it all figured out. As for Isaiah, he is on the side of God, such as us.


Yes, praise the Lord! We all agree that God sent His Son into this world as one of us, to die for our sins and rise and to give us eternal life.

We disagree that God had to pour anger filled wrath upon His Son to feel good about saving us.

Note: Your question #3 was answered by you here in your closing comments when you stated , "God making his Son an offering for our sins".


God Bless
Amen brother!!!
 
@Joe
We disagree that God had to pour anger filled wrath upon His Son to feel good about saving us.
Thank you for your well presented post, I will answer this I trust before the sun goes down this afternoon.

One quick note before I head out to take care of a few things. I have never said it pleased the LORD Jehovah to see his wrath pour out toward his Son, never. Yet it please the Lord to busied Christ, not to see his bodily anguished, but KNOWING that this was the only means whereby his elect could be made the righteousness of God and Justice satisfied perfectly. There was no other way.

Again, thank you for your post, and I shall respond shortly.
 
@Joe
God's eternal purpose in His plan of salvation was accomplished by His Son's death for taking away the sin-guilt of the whole world, everyone, each man, which is to be received by believing in His Son. "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."
Joe, without going into depth on every point, (on some I may) for if I did, this would take many post, since your post was long, which to me, is okay, no problem, for I understand that it is impossible to make very short post and truly answer the post you are attempting to answer.

Joe, Christ's redeeming work was only for those given to him of Father by God's election of grace.

John 17:2​

“As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.”

And he did~both among the Jews and Gentiles. The world in John 3:16 does not mean all without exceptions, because God does make exceptions and is easily proven ~ but all without "distinction".
Another subject for another day, but since you mentioned this, I thought I would only say a word of two in response back.

Another point quickly I should should make. You said: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."
Jesus in quoting Moses was not offering eternal life by believing; John 3:15,16 "is declaring" a biblical truth, that whosoever believes has everlasting life, you do not get life by believing, (for eternal life was secured for us by Christ alone, his faith and obedience) but faith is the clearest evidence of one that has eternal life. Our Lord clearly said these words, hear them carefully:

John 5:24​

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Double verily is given for this purpose only: what our Lord was going to say, few believe and teach the same, so our Lord used double verily to get folks attention on what he was about to say! Most believe and teach that faith must proceed the new birth that's so far from the truth, and truly makes man his co-saviour, and ends up denying to many other biblical truths.
We do not reject the truth of the Gospel of God.
Purposely reject, I do not think men like you and @civic do, charity requires me to believe the best of folks and let God determines who do and not purposely reject truth. We are here to help one another not to judge each other.
We reject the erroneous misunderstanding that God sent His Son into this world so that He could expend pent up wrath upon Him in order to forgive us.
For sure sin had to be atone for, before God could be just in justifying the sinner. I must break this post into more than one, if not it will be way too long for the average reader. So bear with me.

The sovereign will of God was exercised in at least two things with respect to the Atonement: first, in His original purpose to save sinners, for that was solely His mere good pleasure; second, in the process decreed whereby they should be saved, namely, through the vicarious work of a Redeemer. Having purposed to save His people from the wrath to come, it pleased God to resolve that their sins should be remitted in a way whereby His Law should be honored and magnified~I would think you would agree with this thus far. But let it be carefully remembered that in this too God acted quite freely, and not from any constraint. The Law itself is of His own appointment, and not something superior to Himself. Having purposed to save, the Everlasting Covenant was drawn up, and the Mediator having freely accepted its terms and having voluntarily placed Himself under the Law, thenceforward all was done in obedience to the Law. Thus, the Godhead having elected that redemption should be effected under the Law, all was wrought out in perfect accordance with the Law.

It is in the light of these facts that the passages quoted above, respecting the relative necessity of the Atonement, are to be interpreted. "As Moses lifted up the serpent... so must the Son of man be lifted up." There was no absolute necessity in either case. It was sovereign grace, pure and simple, which provided a way of life for the guilty Israelites who were dying in the wilderness. It was by Divine appointment that both the brazen serpent and the Antitype were "lifted up." So of Matthew 16:21: Christ "must" go up to Jerusalem and be killed. Why? Because God had so ordained, because the terms of the Everlasting Covenant so required. So it was not possible for the "cup" to pass from the agonizing Savior. Why? Because God had willed that salvation should come to His people via His drinking it; thus it had been unalterably determined. "Without shedding of blood there could have been no remission" is what Scripture nowhere affirms. But under the regime God has instituted, "without shedding of blood is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22). By shedding of Christ's blood, what does that say? He suffered in our place, even unto death, which is the wages of sin, and he would have remain there if it was not for the spirit of perfect holiness which he possessed. The grave had no power over him. Thereby, he was resurrected just as he said he would be.

Law requires conformity to its precepts. The more perfect a law, the greater the obligations to respect it. Given a law which is "holy and just and good" (Romans 7:12), and obedience to it becomes imperative. For God to repeal or even suspend it would be tantamount to acknowledging there was some defect in it. This could never be. Therefore, creatures made under that law must, of necessity, render obedience to it. In case of their failure, then, before it were possible to justify them, that is, pronounce them righteous, up to the required standard, another must fulfill that law on their behalf, and his righteousness or obedience be imputed to their account. This has actually been done. Christ was "made under the law" (Galatians 4:4), "fulfilled" it (Matthew 5:17), and His obedience has been placed to the legal credit of all His people (Romans 5:19), so that they are now made "the righteousness of God in him" (2nd Corinthians 5:21).

The law not only requires obedience to its precepts, but demands the punishment of its transgressors. Its invariable sentence is "The soul that sins, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4). Inasmuch as God Himself declared this, and He "cannot lie," it inevitably ensues that wherever sin is found, death with all that it includes, must certainly follow. The Lord has expressly affirmed that He "will by no means clear the guilty" (Exodus 34:7). The only way of escape for law's transgressors is for Another to suffer the penalty in their stead. Under the regime which God has instituted, were He to pardon without satisfaction made to His broken law by a Substitute being paid sin's wages, then, God would not only trample upon His own law, but disregard His solemn threatening, and Scripture says "He cannot deny himself" (2 Timothy 2:13). Therefore did God Himself provide that wondrous sacrifice upon which the righteous penalty of the law fell.

To understand aright the work of Redemption, it is all-important that we should hold correct views of the law of God under which man has transgressed, and the state into which he, by rebellion, has fallen. The law of God points out the duty of man, requiring from him that which is right and just. It cannot be altered in the least degree to exact more or less. It is therefore an unalterable rule of righteousness. This law necessarily implies, as essential to it, a sanction and a penalty - a penalty exactly fitted to the magnitude of the crime in transgressing it. Every creature who is under this law is bound by infinite obligations to obey it, without the slightest deviation from it throughout the whole of his existence. But by transgressing it, man has righteously incurred its penalty and fallen under its curse: "Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Galatians 3:10).

Now the curse under which sinners have fallen, cannot be removed nor the transgressor released until full satisfaction has been made to it. Such satisfaction the sinner himself is utterly unable to render: "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight" (Romans 3:20). Because the law of God is an unalterable expression of His will and moral character, neither its demands nor threatenings can be abated. The authority of the law must be maintained. To pardon without a satisfaction would be acting contrary to law. This insuperable barrier in the way of the sinner's deliverance is what underlies the relative necessity for the Mediator and Deliverer.

In order for the curse of the law to be removed from him who had incurred its anathema, it must fall upon another who is made a curse in his stead. It is at this point the amazing riches of Divine grace have been displayed. Not only was the Christ of God made under the law, not only did He render perfect obedience to its precepts, but in addition - O wonder of wonders - He was "made a curse for us" (Galatians 3:13). Him did God Himself foreordain to be "a atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood to declare His righteousness... that He might be [not merely "merciful," but] just, and the Justifier of him which believes in Jesus" (Romans 3:25,26).

I want to finish your post, so give me some time please


 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom