praise_yeshua
Active Member
That is a different verse.
PSA as central to the Gospel
- Thread starter Dizerner
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
Just so you know....
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
The issue is where you think that holy place is....
civic
Active Member
DavidTree
Active Member
Same Holy Spirit Author writing = Hebrews
Same TRUTH of Hebrews ch13 that is directly connected and inseparable from Hebrews ch9
Same TRUTH of Moses/Tabernacle on earth = as it is in HEAVEN
The Scriptures are Building Blocks of TRUTH = "the Law was our Tutor to bring us to Christ"
DavidTree
Active Member
Not on earth
praise_yeshua
Active Member
They relate similar but different things.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Sure it was. Golgotha
DavidTree
Active Member
#1 - Golgatha is not the 'Holy Place'
#2 - It is crystal clear from Hebrews that:
a.) Moses was instructed by the LORD to build the Tabernacle that represented the Actual in Heaven
b.) JESUS, who created all things, poured out His Blood on the Mercy Seat in Heaven
c.) Heaven is a Real/Factual place that has a Mountain, Trees, Rivers and so much more
d.) the same JESUS who ascended back to the FATHER will return whereby the Jews will say:
"What are these wounds on your body" - Zechariah 13:6
DavidTree
Active Member
civic
Active Member
Alright
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Sure it is. Do you remember when Moses meet God? What did God say to Moses?
Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
Christ made that holy place on Golgatha. His body.....
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
You're missing so many things.
He tabernacled with us brother.
Heb_9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt/tabernacled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Christ even now presents Himself alive for us. He ever lives for us.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
@praise_yeshua
He was cut off for his people, yet his perfect life of obedience demanded his resurrection from the dead, we we in him.
Why would I run away?
Well, he was cut off from the land of living, yet the law of God found no fault in him and he was raised from dead according to the spirit of holiness. You know nothing at all, just as Caiaphas said to the Jews:
John 11:49
“And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,”Romans 1:4
“And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:”Romans 6:9
“Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.”He was cut off for his people, yet his perfect life of obedience demanded his resurrection from the dead, we we in him.
Pretense? I have on ideal what you are referring to. Get your facts together before speaking.
Well, he did indeed he suffered "DEATH", and would have remain dead, if he was not that perfect propitiation for our sins provided by Christ~ he was put to death, yet death had no power over our Lord Jesus, because of the spirit of holiness he possessed. You know nothing all! The wages of sin is what? Death, period! It is not what you folks teach......that one for all eternity, as long as God is God, suffers in hell fire, that's nowhere to be found in the scriptures, that added by men like you.
We shall see who has the truth, and I'm certain it is not coming from folks like you.
@civic
Let us consider some important truths from the prophet Isaiah, for us to see if indeed Christ's life was one of penal sufferings in the place of God's elect.
There may not be a more known OT passages of scriptures, than Isaiah 53 from the days of the apostles until now. The eunuch in Acts 8, no doubt had heard these same scriptures read when he went to Jerusalem to worship and was pondering them on his way back home, when Philip meet up with him and desire for Philipp to join him and expound to him what the prophet was saying; and we know Philip begun at the same scriptures and preach unto him JESUS, which scriptures were the very means of this eunuch being converted over to the rellgion of Jesus Christ.
Not many do believe the gospel just as it is taught in the word of God, especially so concerning Jesus suffering for our sins, as appointed of God, through the means of using wicked and ungodly men, who without any coercing on God's part, he just left them to their own deceitful and evil hearts which are naturally averse toward God, truth, etc. and Jesus Christ being God's only begotten Son, they hated him with a passion, and had rather have the devil among them instead of Jesus Christ.
"to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed"~those like the eunuch beleive with all their hearts, just as it is written! God must reveal Christ to us, before we will receive the truths of gospel. without attempting to wate rdown its truths, we receive them just as it is written.
There was not one thing about Christ, spiritually speaking that cause the Jews to desire him. His birth, his parents, there statues in life was very mean, unbecoming whom they though their Messiah would be, they did not truly believe as Simeon, and Anna did when they saw him. Truly the arm of the Lord is revealed to a few, not to the majority, never has, never will.
"His life was one continued series of sorrow, from the cradle to the cross; in his infancy his life was sought for by Herod, and he was obliged to be taken by his parents, and flee into Egypt; he ate his bread in sorrow, and with the sweat of his brow; he met with much sorrow from the hardness and unbelief of men's hearts, and from the contradiction of sinners against himself, and even much from the frowardness of his own disciples; much from the temptations of Satan, and more from the wrath and justice of God, "as the surety of his people"; he was exceeding sorrowful in the garden, when his sweat was as it were great drops of blood; and when on the cross, under the hidings of his Father's face, under a sense of divine displeasure for the sins of his people, and enduring the pains and agonies of a shameful and an accursed death; he was made up of sorrows, and grief was familiar to him." (John Gill)
The life of Jesus was to carry the griefs and sorrows of his people. What gracious kindness He showed to an ungrateful nation with healings and exorcisms of all sorts! This text was fulfilled by our Lord’s many miracles to relieve physical suffering, for the inhumane treatment He received for His kindness was part of His humiliation (Matthew 8:16-17). In spite of total innocence of any charge and all He had done for the nation, the Jews’ opinion was that Jesus was a blasphemer and judged by God for it (John 10:33; Matthew 26:65). They viewed the circumstances of his life and death as indications of God’s wrath on Him for blasphemy, for He had claimed to be the Son of God and would rise again after three days. They happily took responsibility for His blood from Pilate, to their destruction (Matthew 27:25).
Esteem here in 4b is to count or consider, since the Jews counted Jesus under God’s judgment. The Jews considered His afflicted life and smiting death as God’s judgment for His own sins, in spite of all He had done for them and that no fault could be found in Him at all. The treacherous and traitorous spirit of man is here fully displayed for all to see and know. Due to the negative view of Jesus by the Jews in 4b, we have God’s explanation in verse 5.
The wounds, bruises, chastisement, and stripes were for OUR transgressions, iniquities, peace, and healing. They wickedly assumed He was dying for His sins, but He was dying for our sins! Thus fulfilling such scriptures as Galatians 3:13; 2nd Corinthians 5:2.
His afflicted life and cruel death, clearly punishments from heaven, were not God’s judgments for blasphemy or any other sin by Him, but rather a substitutionary sacrifice for our own sins. All that happened to Him – wounds, bruises, chastisement, and stripes – was for our own sins. What He bore in His life and death was for our transgressions, iniquities, peace, and healing. The punishment it took to make peace between God and sinners was the cause of His suffering. We are legally healed in the sight of God by the stripes He received by scourging before death. Peter quotes part of this verse as he explains the substitutionary aspect of His death (Ist Pet 2:24). His horrible life and cruel death were only God’s judgments for the sins of others, not His own. The ultimate and anti-typical sacrifice for sin was the death of Jesus of Nazareth (Hebrews 9:12).
You show your unscriptural position by your pitiful use of Isaiah 53, one of, if not the top of the list of Christ sufferings in the place of his people for the satisfaction/atonement of their sins, according to the will of God; through using the wicked hearts of men who hated God, truth and his Son; who was the express image of God, in holiness and a lover of righteousness, and hated iniquity.
Let us consider some important truths from the prophet Isaiah, for us to see if indeed Christ's life was one of penal sufferings in the place of God's elect.
Isaiah 53:1
“Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?”There may not be a more known OT passages of scriptures, than Isaiah 53 from the days of the apostles until now. The eunuch in Acts 8, no doubt had heard these same scriptures read when he went to Jerusalem to worship and was pondering them on his way back home, when Philip meet up with him and desire for Philipp to join him and expound to him what the prophet was saying; and we know Philip begun at the same scriptures and preach unto him JESUS, which scriptures were the very means of this eunuch being converted over to the rellgion of Jesus Christ.
Not many do believe the gospel just as it is taught in the word of God, especially so concerning Jesus suffering for our sins, as appointed of God, through the means of using wicked and ungodly men, who without any coercing on God's part, he just left them to their own deceitful and evil hearts which are naturally averse toward God, truth, etc. and Jesus Christ being God's only begotten Son, they hated him with a passion, and had rather have the devil among them instead of Jesus Christ.
"to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed"~those like the eunuch beleive with all their hearts, just as it is written! God must reveal Christ to us, before we will receive the truths of gospel. without attempting to wate rdown its truths, we receive them just as it is written.
Isaiah 53:2
“For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.”There was not one thing about Christ, spiritually speaking that cause the Jews to desire him. His birth, his parents, there statues in life was very mean, unbecoming whom they though their Messiah would be, they did not truly believe as Simeon, and Anna did when they saw him. Truly the arm of the Lord is revealed to a few, not to the majority, never has, never will.
Isaiah 53:3
“He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”"His life was one continued series of sorrow, from the cradle to the cross; in his infancy his life was sought for by Herod, and he was obliged to be taken by his parents, and flee into Egypt; he ate his bread in sorrow, and with the sweat of his brow; he met with much sorrow from the hardness and unbelief of men's hearts, and from the contradiction of sinners against himself, and even much from the frowardness of his own disciples; much from the temptations of Satan, and more from the wrath and justice of God, "as the surety of his people"; he was exceeding sorrowful in the garden, when his sweat was as it were great drops of blood; and when on the cross, under the hidings of his Father's face, under a sense of divine displeasure for the sins of his people, and enduring the pains and agonies of a shameful and an accursed death; he was made up of sorrows, and grief was familiar to him." (John Gill)
Isaiah 53:4
“Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.”The life of Jesus was to carry the griefs and sorrows of his people. What gracious kindness He showed to an ungrateful nation with healings and exorcisms of all sorts! This text was fulfilled by our Lord’s many miracles to relieve physical suffering, for the inhumane treatment He received for His kindness was part of His humiliation (Matthew 8:16-17). In spite of total innocence of any charge and all He had done for the nation, the Jews’ opinion was that Jesus was a blasphemer and judged by God for it (John 10:33; Matthew 26:65). They viewed the circumstances of his life and death as indications of God’s wrath on Him for blasphemy, for He had claimed to be the Son of God and would rise again after three days. They happily took responsibility for His blood from Pilate, to their destruction (Matthew 27:25).
Esteem here in 4b is to count or consider, since the Jews counted Jesus under God’s judgment. The Jews considered His afflicted life and smiting death as God’s judgment for His own sins, in spite of all He had done for them and that no fault could be found in Him at all. The treacherous and traitorous spirit of man is here fully displayed for all to see and know. Due to the negative view of Jesus by the Jews in 4b, we have God’s explanation in verse 5.
The wounds, bruises, chastisement, and stripes were for OUR transgressions, iniquities, peace, and healing. They wickedly assumed He was dying for His sins, but He was dying for our sins! Thus fulfilling such scriptures as Galatians 3:13; 2nd Corinthians 5:2.
Isaiah 53:5
“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.”His afflicted life and cruel death, clearly punishments from heaven, were not God’s judgments for blasphemy or any other sin by Him, but rather a substitutionary sacrifice for our own sins. All that happened to Him – wounds, bruises, chastisement, and stripes – was for our own sins. What He bore in His life and death was for our transgressions, iniquities, peace, and healing. The punishment it took to make peace between God and sinners was the cause of His suffering. We are legally healed in the sight of God by the stripes He received by scourging before death. Peter quotes part of this verse as he explains the substitutionary aspect of His death (Ist Pet 2:24). His horrible life and cruel death were only God’s judgments for the sins of others, not His own. The ultimate and anti-typical sacrifice for sin was the death of Jesus of Nazareth (Hebrews 9:12).
VERSE 53:6 later...
civic
Active Member
My view is 100% accurate according to the NT witnesses who quote Isaiah 53 in the NT and give us the biblical interpretation.
Your view is unbiblical as I have proven in that thread if you espouse PSA. He was cut off from the land, not God.
Your equivocating is easily debunked with your twisting of scripture with PSA. Scripture must be twisted to those adherents of PSA.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Cowards run away.
I'm going to stop right here and demand you answer my original question. Not this nonsense you keep doing. YOU demand that Christ be "cut off" from God and yet Christ saw no corruption and arose from the grave victories over death.
Your false claims above are nonsense and despicable. You dishonor the quality of Divinity in the offering of Jesus Christ.
It is not obedience that qualified Christ as the proper offering for sin. It was His quality of Divinity.
If what you say is true, then a person could simply live righteous and qualify for eternal life. Sightlier taught you nonsense. You're still living in it. It is yours now.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
We can get together with your old friends and I can educate you. You're still close enough to your own "stomping grounds" to have this debate among your "peers".
praise_yeshua
Active Member
It really is ridiculous how you post verses like this and demand that God "despise" Christ for YOU.....
I mean seriously, do you have a reading problem? This is bordering on being delusional.
@praise_yeshua
Let's see who has a reading problem, shall we?
And we just got started, we will add more as we continue. I'm sure you do not have a reading problem, not many do, the problem is who truly believes Isaiah's report? Not many do, only those to whom the arm of the LORD has revealed him to those who do believe.
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