PSA as central to the Gospel

[Red Baker]

@Matthias @civic

PSA teaches that God punishes his innocent Son for sins he did not even commit. It also gives us a breakdown of the Trinity and presents God as a monster who promotes violence as the answer to problems.

PSA is INJUSTICE 100 %. Its antibiblical. Its proponents do not understand the nature and character of God. It stems from gnosticism, paganism and greek philospohy.

If any denies that Christ's life was not a penal work on the behalf of those he was a surety for, then they are denying the very foundation bedrock of the gospel of Jesus Christ, there's no escaping of this fact, which I trust to prove.

We will have much to say over the course of this discussion, so do not take where we start as a only course we could go, there are so many different avenues we could travel to bring this truth out, and I'm sure we shall cover many different point as we go along, so be patience.

While it is true wicked hands put Christ to death, yet God used those wicked men to perfectly carry out what had to be done in order for his elect to be saved from their sins, the Just had to die for the unjust, in order for them to have the righteousness of God, which gives a person a right to eternal life, there was no other way, for if it were, then God would have taken the most righteous way to redeem his people from their sins. Let us consider a few scriptures:

Galatians 3:13​

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:”

2nd Corinthians 5:21​

“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

Without question, Paul believed and taught Christ's penal work on our behalf, to reject this is to reject the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We ask, who made Christ a curse for God's elect? Who made Christ to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God?

Scripture plainly teaches that God is both holy and righteous, and that "justice and judgment" (not "love and pity") are the establishment of God's "throne" (Psalm 89:14). Thus there is that in the Divine Essence which abhors sin for its intrinsic sinfulness, both in its respect of pollution and in its aspect of guilt. The perfections of God are therefore displayed both by forbidding and punishing the same. He has pledged Himself that "the soul that sins, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4). Therefore, in order for a full Satisfaction to be rendered unto God, sin must be punished, the penalty of the law must be enforced. Consequently, as Savior of His Church, Christ had to vicariously suffer the infliction of the law's curse.

What we shall now seek to show is that the sufferings and death of Christ were a atonement to Divine justice on behalf of the sins of His people.

The deep humiliation to which the Son of God was subjected in taking upon Him the form of a servant, and being made "in the likeness of sin's flesh," was a judicial infliction imposed upon Him by the Father, yet voluntarily submitted to by Himself. The very purpose of His humiliation, His obedience, His Sufferings, makes them penal, for they were unto the satisfying of the claims of God's law upon His people. In being "made under the law" (Galatians 4:4) Christ became subject to all that the law enjoins: "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to them who are under the law" (Romans 3:19), which means the law calls for the fulfillment of its terms. "Christ in our room and stead, did both by doing and suffering, satisfy Divine justice, both the legislatory, the retributive, and the vindictive, in the most perfect manner, fulfilling all the righteousness of the law, which the law otherwise required of us, in order to impunity, and to our having a right to eternal life" (H. Witsius, 1693).

"For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust" (1st Peter 3:18). The reference here must not be restricted to what Christ endured at the hands of God while He hung upon the Cross, nor to all He passed through during that day and preceding night. Beware of limiting the Word of God! No; the entirety of His humiliation is here included. The whole life of Christ was one of sufferings, therefore was He designated "the Man of sorrows," not simply, "sorrow". From His birth to His death, suffering and sorrow marked Him as their legitimate Victim. While yet an infant He was driven into exile, to escape the fury of those who sought His life. That was but the prophetic fore runner of His whole earthly course. The cup of woe, put to His lips at Bethlehem, was never removed until He drained its bitter dregs at Calvary.

Every variety of suffering was experienced by Him. He tasted poverty in its severest rigor. Born in a stable, owning no property on earth, dependent upon the charity of others (Luke 8:3), oftentimes being worse situated than the inferior orders of creation: (Matthew 8:20). He suffered reproach in all its bitterness. The most malignant accusations, the vilest aspersions, the most cutting sarcasm, were directed against His person and character. He was taunted with being a glutton, a wine bibber, a deceiver, a blasphemer, a devil. Therefore do we hear Him crying, "Reproach has broken my heart" (Psalm 69:20). He experienced temptation in all its malignity. The Prince of darkness assailed Him with all his ingenuity and power, causing his infernal legions to attack Him, coming against Him like "strong bulls of Bashan," gaping on Him with their mouths like ravening and roaring lions (Psalm 22:12, 13). Above all, He suffered the wrath of God, so that He was "exceeding sorrowful, even unto death" (Matthew 26:38), in "an agony" (Luke 22:44), and ultimately, "forsaken of God."

More on this point....

​

 

[Red Baker]

What then is the explanation of these unparalleled "sufferings"? Why was the most perfect obedience followed by the most terrible punishment? Why was unsullied holiness visited with unutterable anguish? David declared, "Yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken" (Psalm 37:25); why, then was the Righteous One abandoned by God? Only one answer is possible; only one answer fully meets all the facts of the case; only one answer clears the government of God. In taking the place of offending sinners, Christ became obligated to discharge all their liabilities, and this involved bearing their sins, being charged with their guilt, suffering their punishment. Accordingly, God dealt with Him as the Representative of His criminal people, inflicting upon Him all that their sins merited. As the sin-bearing Substitute of His people, Christ was justly exposed to all the dreadful consequences of God's manifested displeasure. There could be no other reason given as to why Christ suffered and died the death that he died.

Of old the question was asked, "Who ever perished being innocent?" (Job 4:7), to which we may, without the slightest hesitation, answer, None. God never has and never will smite the innocent. Therefore before His punitive wrath could fall upon Christ, the sins of His people must first be transferred to Him, and this is precisely what Scripture affirms. Remarkably was this foreshadowed of old in the great type of Israel's annual Day of Atonement, "And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions with all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat" (Leviticus 16:21). So too was it plainly prophesied, "The Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. . . He bare the sin of many" (Isaiah 53:6, 12). So also is it expressly affirmed in the New Testament, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many" (Hebrews 9:28). Once again we would point out there is not a hint in these passages that Christ bore the sins of His people only while He was hanging upon the Cross. We are aware that many have so affirmed, but in doing so they have not only been guilty of adding to the Word of God, but also of flatly contradicting it.

We have already pointed out that the expression of Romans 8:3, "made in the likeness of sin's flesh," clearly presupposes the transfer of His people's sins to Christ, and that what happened immediately after His birth was in full keeping with this fact, and cannot be understood apart from it. That He was "circumcised" (Luke 2:21) not only proved that He had been "made in the likeness of men" (Philippians 2:7), but also evidenced that He had been made "in the likeness of sin's flesh."So too the ceremonial "purification" of His mother (Luke 2:22) and her presentation of a "sin-offering" (Leviticus 12:2, 6), was in perfect keeping with the fact that, though His humanity was immaculate, yet He had entered this world officially guilty.

As little children we sinned - "the wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies" (Psalm 58:3) - and therefore as a child Christ suffered, suffered not only as our Substitute, but because our sins had been transferred to Him. In our youth we sinned, and as a youth Christ suffered, and suffered at the hands of God, as His own words clearly testify: "I am afflicted and ready to die from youth up: I suffer Your terrors, I am distracted" (Psalm 88:15). In the prime of our manhood, we sinned, and in the prime of His manhood Christ suffered. Let us refer once more to His being assailed by Satan. Hebrews 2:18 tells us that He "suffered being tempted," and that very suffering was penal. That Christ's "suffering" under Satan was designed and appointed as an infliction from God,is proved by the statement that "Jesus was led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the Devil" (Matthew 4:1).

Man having allowed himself to be overcome by Satan, God has, by a just sentence, delivered him up as a slave to his tyranny; therefore was it necessary that Christ, as His sinful people's Substitute, should be exposed to the harasses of the Devil, that in this respect also He might satisfy Divine justice. Most assuredly Satan and his agents could never have assailed Christ had He not been so (legally) charged with the guilt of our crimes, that God righteously exposed Him to injuries from them (Acts 2:23). The elect themselves, as sinners, were subject to Satan's power (Colossians 1:13), and that by the righteous sentence of the Judge of all the earth; therefore were they not only the "prey of the mighty," but also were "lawful captives" (Isaiah 49:24). Therefore, as Christ came here as Surety in their room, He, by virtue of God's sentence, also became subject to the buffetings of Satan.

"Christ's passive, or suffering obedience, is not to be confined to what He experienced in the garden and on the cross. This suffering was the culmination of His piacular sorrow, but not the whole of it. Everything in His human and earthly career that was distressing belongs to His passive obedience. It is a true remark of Jonathan Edwards, that the blood of Christ's circumcision was as really a part of His vicarious atonement, as the blood that flowed from His pierced side. And not only His suffering proper, but His humiliation, also, was expiatory" (W. Shedd). "The satisfaction or atoning sacrifice of Christ consists either in His suffering evil, or His being subject to abasement. . . Whatever Christ was subject to which was the judicial fruit of sin, had the nature of satisfaction for sin. But not only proper suffering, but all abasement and depression of the state and circumstances of mankind (human nature) below its primitive honor and dignity, such as His body remaining under death, and body and soul remaining separate, are the judicial fruits of sin" (Jon. Edwards, 1743).

When the Scriptures speak of the Satisfaction of Christ, they ascribe it to His sufferings in general, as Isaiah 53:4, "Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows," that is, He suffered all the pains and sorrows due to us from sin. It is to be most carefully noted that the inspired declaration "the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6) comes before "He was oppressed" and before "He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter"; as it was at the commencement of His public ministry, and not while He hung upon the Cross that God moved one of His servants to cry, "Behold the Lamb of God" which takes away the sin of the world. Christ was brought "to the slaughter" before the three hours of darkness, yet even then "affliction" lay upon Him, and our iniquity was exacted of Him. So too this very chapter (Isaiah 53) ascribes our "healing" to the stripes which He received from men as plainly as other passages attribute our being delivered from the curse of the law through God's visiting Him with its curse.

"For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example" (1 Peter 2:21). "To suffer here denotes to be in affliction: for all those sufferings are here intended, in which Christ has left us an example of patience. These sufferings he affirms to be for us, that is, undergone as well in our stead, as for our good. We conclude hence, that in 3:18 he says, 'Christ suffered for sins', namely, that He might be the atoning sacrifice for our sins" (H. Witsius).

Later....

​

 

[Red Baker]

When the sovereign rights of God are emphasized there is generally raised the objection that we are hereby "reducing man to a mere machine." Many are they who are prepared to hold a brief for human responsibility. But rare indeed is it that we ever hear anything about transferred responsibility. Yet it is at this point lies one of the chief wonders and glories of the Gospel. The responsibility of God's people was transferred to Christ: He assumed their liabilities, made Himself chargeable with their debts, answerable to every demand of the law against them. Had this not been the case, how could God have righteously laid the iniquities of His people upon the head of His Holy Son? Still less could He have called for the sword of Justice to smite Him. It was because Christ was "made sin" for us, that He was also "made a curse" for us: the latter could not be without the former. As this is a point of such vital importance we must amplify a little further.

Hebrews 7:22 declares that Christ is "Surety of a better covenant": He was the Sponsor of His people, as Judah undertook to be for Benjamin. "I will be surety for him; of my hand shall you require him; if I bring him not unto you, and set him before you, then let me bear the blame forever" (Genesis 43:9). Or, as Paul was for Onesimus, "If he has wronged you, or owes ought, put that on mine account; I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it" (Philemon 1:18, 19). Just so did Christ engage Himself unto His Father for us: reckon to Me whatever they owe You, and I will satisfy for it. "A surety, whose name is put into a bond, is not only bound to pay the debt, but he makes it his own debt also, even as well as it is the principal's, so that he may be sued and charged for the debt. So Christ, when He once made Himself a Surety, He so put Himself in the room of sinners, that what the law could lay to their charge, it might lay to His" (T. Goodwin, 1680).

Christ must take on Him the guilt of our transgressions before He could take our punishment upon Him, and so satisfy Divine justice on our behalf. That He did so, is demonstrated by His own words. It is indeed remarkable to find how that Christ actually owned our sins as being His. First, in the 40th Psalm. That this Psalm is a Messianic one we know from its quotation in Hebrews 10. That it contains the very words of Christ, is plainly evident from verses 7-11. He is still the Speaker in verse 12, where He declared "For innumerable evils have compassed me about: Mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart fails me." What a proof that the sins of His people had been transferred to Him! Second, in the 69th, another great Messianic Psalm. There too we find Him saying, "O God, You know my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from You" (v. 5). How unmistakably do those words show our sins had been reckoned to Him! Those sins were His not by perpetration, but by imputation.

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on [to] the tree" (1st Peter 2:24). "'Our sins' here are our liabilities to punishment on account of our violations of the Divine law, and the necessary consequences of those liabilities; in other words, guilt in the sense of binding over to punishment, and punishment itself" (J. Brown). Those sins Christ "bare," endured as a heavy load. The reason why the Cross is here termed "the tree" we will state a little later.

There was a needs be for Christ taking on Him the guilt of our transgressions in order for Divine justice to punish Him, for "we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth" (Romans 2:2). Whoever God punishes for sin must be guilty of sin. Therefore we read, "For He has made Him sin for us, who knew no sin" (2 Corinthians 5:21). Each word here calls for a separate paragraph. The opening "for" assigns the ground on which the message of reconciliation (verses 19, 20) rests: verse 19 states that God does not impute trespasses unto His people; verse 21 tells us why: because they were imputed to Christ. Here the Atonement is traced back to its source. "God was in Christ reconciling": He made Christ to be sin - when? In the everlasting covenant, by the mutual agreement of the Father and the Son. Then we beheld the fitness of Christ to make atonement: He was personally sinless, it was God who so adjudged Him! "Who knew no sin" is the negative way of saying that His obedience was perfect. The law had no fault against Him, either of omission or commission. Nevertheless, "He [God] made him [legally constituted Christ] to be sin for us," not in mere semblance, but in awful reality, and this, from the moment of His incarnation.

In entering the law place of His people, Christ became answerable to the righteousness of God on their behalf: whatever they owed, must be exacted from their Sponsor: He must pay their debts, suffer the full penalty of their iniquities, receive sin's wages in their room. Christ now became exposed to all that the holiness of God must inflict upon sin. Therefore we read, "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree" (Galatians 3:13). "The cross was accursed, not only in the opinion of men, but by the decree of the Divine law. Therefore when Christ was lifted up upon it, He rendered Himself obnoxious to the curse" (Calvin).

The very mode of death which God appointed for His Son reveals to us the penal nature of it. The Cross was no mere "accident," as though it made no difference what form His death took. Fundamental reasons rendered it expedient and necessary that the Surety should die a death which was accursed of God; hence the frequent reference in the New Testament to the "cross" and the "tree"-cf. John 12:32, 33. At Calvary God's terrible curse on sin was publicly displayed, of which the cross was not the cause but the symbol: cf. John 3:14. Under the Mosaic law (to which the apostle refers in Galatians 3:13), hanging on a tree was a death reserved for great criminals. Hence the force of the word "tree" in 1 Peter 2:24. Christ hanging upon the tree was the public testimony to God's curse on Him. "The cause of the curse was not the hanging on the tree, but the sin with which He was charged; and that mode of punishment exhibited that He was the object of God's holy displeasure; not indeed because He was suspended on the tree, but because He was the sin bearer, and the punishment of the offenses for which that ignominious penalty was allotted was then inflicted. Divine wisdom appointed that He who bore the sin of the world should be exposed as a curse, for the Divine displeasure was there most awfully displayed" (G. Smeaton).

As to why this means and method of death was selected by God out of all others possible - poisoning, stoning, beheading, etc,-Genesis 3 supplies the answer: "As the fatal sin which diffused the curse over the human race was connected with the forbidden 'tree,' God wisely ordered that the last Adam should expiate sin by being suspended on a tree: and He appointed in the law (Deuteronomy 21:22, 23) such a symbol of the curse as reminded all men of the origin of the Divine curse on the world. He would not have the curse removed in any other way" (G. Smeaton). Among the Romans, death by crucifixion was the deepest possible humiliation. It was the most degrading of punishments, inflicted only on slaves and the lowest of the people, and if freemen were at any time subjected to crucifixion for great crimes, such as robbery, high treason, or sedition, the sentence could not be executed until they were put into the catalogue of slaves, and that, by the utmost humiliation. Their liberty was taken from them by servile stripes and scourging, as was done to Christ. Thus the curse of God's law was executed upon the Head and Substitute of His people. To "preach Christ crucified" (1 Corinthians 1:23) is to proclaim and expound His being "made a curse for us."

Because Christ was "made sin" and "made a curse" for His people, the wrath of God's holiness flamed against Him and the sword of His justice pierced Him. "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man that is my fellow, says the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd" (Zechariah 13:7), and cf. Matthew 26:31. God inflicted punishment on Christ as if He had been the personal offender. "It pleased the Lord to bruise him; He has put him to grief: when You shall make his soul an offering for sin" (Isaiah 53:10). As all the sufferings of men, whether inflicted immediately by God or mediately by Satan or men (Jeremiah 2:15-17), arise from the demerits of sin; so all the sufferings of Christ, from man, Satan, God, arose from the demerits of His peoples' sins imputed to their Substitute.

The punishment which God meted out to Christ was the very punishment which was due His people. That He was accursed of God is seen from His hanging on the tree. That He received sin's wages was evidenced by God's forsaking Him. That He was numbered with transgressors was exhibited by His dying between two thieves. True, He did not suffer eternally, for the eternity of our punishment was only a circumstance arising from our incapacity to suffer the whole weight of God's wrath in a brief season, and therefore the brevity of duration of Christ's sufferings is no valid objection against the identity of penalty which He received. Moreover, the infinite dignity of His person more than compensated the law. "To the enlightened eye, there is found on the cross another inscription besides that which Pilate ordered to be written there: The Victim of guilt. The Wages of sin" (J. Brown).​

 

[DavidTree]

Our Savior Jesus Christ wasn’t punished; He gave Himself for the whole world!

1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV) 5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

s e l a h

JESUS gave Himself to be punished unto death for the sins of the world = GOSPEL

God Said so in the Holy Scriptures = which cannot lie

@Joe

 

[civic]

JESUS gave Himself to be punished unto death for the sins of the world = GOSPEL

God Said so in the Holy Scriptures = which cannot lie

@Joe

Punished by the hands of wicked men, not God.

Who was responsible for putting Jesus to death, was it God or man?

Acts 4:10, 11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

 

[DavidTree]

Punished by the hands of wicked men, not God.

Who was responsible for putting Jesus to death, was it God or man?

Acts 4:10, 11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

God was responsible for sending His Son for the purpose of punishment replacement = SALVATION for Man

 

[civic]

God was responsible for sending His Son for the purpose of punishment replacement = SALVATION for Man

nope never punished by the Father. Thats a myth.

Believe Gods word below, not the teaching of fallen man. Let God be true and every man found to be a liar.

How many times must God say something before you will believe Him ?

5 times is not enough ?


Acts 4:10, 11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

 

[Red Baker]

@DavidTree

JESUS gave Himself to be punished unto death for the sins of the world = GOSPEL

God Said so in the Holy Scriptures = which cannot lie

Greetings David,

While it is true according to the scriptures that Christ died for the world, meaning, Jews and Gentiles, the the world does not mean all without "exception", for God makes exceptions; but, the true biblical sense is all without "distinction", Jews and Gentiles, the wise and unwise, the poor and the rich, etc.

 

[civic]

Will you believe Jesus ?

He said it 7 times below

Matthew 17:23
They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief.

Mark 9:31
31for he was teaching his disciples, and said to them, “The Son of Man is being handed over to the hands of men, and they will kill him; and when he is killed, on the third day he will rise again.”

Luke 9:22
“The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Matthew 20:18-19
“Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes. They will condemn Him to death / and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life.”

Mark 8:31
Then He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and after three days rise again.

Luke 18:31-33
Then Jesus took the Twelve aside and said to them, “Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything the prophets have written about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. / He will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. / They will flog Him and kill Him, and on the third day He will rise again.”

John 2:19-21
Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.” / “This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?” / But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body.

I have given 12 passages declaring Jesus was punished by wicked men, not God

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Some make void the word of God by their traditions. The traditions of fallen men who teach error.

God did not punish His Son, Evil and wicked men punished Him, tortured Him, persecuted Him and finally killed Him.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Are you denying that Jesus being punished for YOUR sins is loving?

That makes no logical sense, as that is the epitome of sacrifice.

punished by wicked men , not God. When will you believe God and not your traditions of men ?

Here are a dozen passages proving you are wrong.


Who was responsible for putting Jesus to death, was it God or man?

Scripture is unanimous it was wicked men, not God.

Acts 4:10, 11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

Will you believe Jesus ?

He said it 7 times below

Matthew 17:23
They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief.

Mark 9:31
31for he was teaching his disciples, and said to them, “The Son of Man is being handed over to the hands of men, and they will kill him; and when he is killed, on the third day he will rise again.”

Luke 9:22
“The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Matthew 20:18-19
“Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes. They will condemn Him to death / and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life.”

Mark 8:31
Then He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and after three days rise again.

Luke 18:31-33
Then Jesus took the Twelve aside and said to them, “Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything the prophets have written about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. / He will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. / They will flog Him and kill Him, and on the third day He will rise again.”

John 2:19-21
Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.” / “This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?” / But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body.

I have given 12 passages declaring Jesus was punished by wicked men, not God

hope this helps !!!

 

[Red Baker]

@ciivic

How many times must God say something before you will believe Him ?

5 times is not enough ?


Acts 4:10, 11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

It actually said this more than fives times, but it is "only half the truth" ~ it is also true God Himself made Christ a curse for us, etc. God's infinite foreknowledge knew percerty what man would do when left to themselves, thereby, He used their wicked purposes to carry out His eternal purposes that he purposed with Himself.

Acts 2:23​

“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

Acts 15:16​

“After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”

The tabernacle of David are the elect fallen in Adam, raised up in Christ, by God using the wicked works of men to carry out his eternal purposes perfectly, no problem with God doing so. The sin of killing Christ is still their own doing and they will reap the consequences of those sins.

 

[civic]

Pride/Ego will not take correction. Its very Sadducee.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

 

[civic]

@ciivic

It actually said this more than fives times, but it is "only half the truth" ~ it is also true God Himself made Christ a curse for us, etc. God's infinite foreknowledge knew percerty what man would do when left to themselves, thereby, He used their wicked purposes to carry out His eternal purposes that he purposed with Himself.

Acts 2:23​

“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

Acts 15:16​

“After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”

The tabernacle of David are the elect fallen in Adam, raised up in Christ, by God using the wicked works of men to carry out his eternal purposes perfectly, no problem with God doing so. The sin of killing Christ is still their own doing and they will reap the consequences of those sins.

read your own verse which proved me right.

and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”


Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

read your own verse which proved me right.

and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

You need to slow and consider what I have posted, which it seems you are just closing your eyes to the truth.

Let me say this first and foremost: I'm not here to prove me right and you wrong, that means nothing to me, I'm here to defend truth, and to be made more perfect in what I do believe ~ meaning we all can grow in grace the the knowledge of God's truth.

I have said this:

While it is true wicked hands put Christ to death, yet God used those wicked men to perfectly carry out what had to be done in order for his elect to be saved from their sins, the Just had to die for the unjust, in order for them to have the righteousness of God, which gives a person a right to eternal life, there was no other way, for if it were, then God would have taken the most righteous way to redeem his people from their sins. Let us consider a few scriptures:

Galatians 3:13​

I'm stepping out for a while but want to come back and address these scriptures:

John 11:49-53~"And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death."

 

[DavidTree]

Will you believe Jesus ?

He said it 7 times below

Matthew 17:23
They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief.

Mark 9:31
31for he was teaching his disciples, and said to them, “The Son of Man is being handed over to the hands of men, and they will kill him; and when he is killed, on the third day he will rise again.”

Luke 9:22
“The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Matthew 20:18-19
“Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes. They will condemn Him to death / and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life.”

Mark 8:31
Then He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and after three days rise again.

Luke 18:31-33
Then Jesus took the Twelve aside and said to them, “Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything the prophets have written about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. / He will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. / They will flog Him and kill Him, and on the third day He will rise again.”

John 2:19-21
Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.” / “This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?” / But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body.

I have given 12 passages declaring Jesus was punished by wicked men, not God

hope this helps !!!

All true as pertaining to those who carried out satan's will on earth.

*** SPOILER ALERT *** = JESUS prayed: "not my will but Thy Will be done = on earth as it is in Heaven"

 

[Jay]

The Bible tells us that Jesus’ death was for us, He took our place and it was indeed a sacrifice. No one can deny that. However, the Bible never once states that Jesus’ death was legalistic or similar to the heathen forms of sacrifice. Nor does Scripture ever state that Jesus took God’s anger and wrath in our place appeasing God. Sure the Bible speaks of Jesus’ death as a substitute, and as a “propitiation”, but this does not automatically equate to Penal Substitution. The problem is, adherents to this false doctrine only see Penal Substitution when they read those words, despite the fact that Bible never states that God was appeased by expelling His wrath onto Jesus. Scripture actually must be taken gravely out of context to come to such a conclusion. Scripture teaches us that Jesus’ death reconciles us to God and is something we must participate in:

Penal Substitution Is not the Biblical Teaching on Salvation:​

The Bible tells us that Jesus’ death was for us, He took our place and it was indeed a sacrifice. No one can deny that. However, the Bible never once states that Jesus’ death was legalistic or similar to the heathen forms of sacrifice. Nor does Scripture ever state that Jesus took God’s anger and wrath in our place appeasing God. Sure the Bible speaks of Jesus’ death as a substitute, and as a “propitiation”, but this does not automatically equate to Penal Substitution. The problem is, adherents to this false doctrine only see Penal Substitution when they read those words, despite the fact that Bible never states that God was appeased by expelling His wrath onto Jesus. Scripture actually must be taken gravely out of context to come to such a conclusion. Scripture teaches us that Jesus’ death reconciles us to God and is something we must participate in:

14 For the love of Christ compels us, having concluded this: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live should live no longer for themselves, but for the [One] who died for them and rose again. 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know [Him thus] no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, all things have become new. And by his ministry of reconciliation, to reconcile others also in Christ to God 18 And all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and who gave to us the ministry of this reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:14-18)

Paul speaks of reconciliation and sharing in the death of Jesus: “one died for all, then all died.”. Clearly, Paul did not view Jesus’ death as a propitiation of God’s wrath. Likewise, Jesus saw His incarnation, death and ressurection as something we must participate in:

24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life on account of Me shall find it.” (Matthew 16:24-25)

Yes, we are saved by Faith. I am not denying that, but faith is a first step that places us in a right relationship with God. We must follow. The word “follow” is found in the New Testament many times. It is most often used in terms of following evil, the world and your own desires contrasted with following God’s moral commandments, Jesus and the instructions of the Apostles. Following is an action we must choose to take. We participate with Jesus in His life, death and resurrection and this is what will lead us to salvation.

And this part is really important as this is a whole defeat of sin, not just a false masking as found Calvin’s doctrines of Penal Substitution and imputed righteousness. Jesus has defeated sin and death. He has made right what we caused at the fall. By faith in His whole incarnation, not just His death, we are also made right with God . We are reconcilled to Him and begin this journey:

But because you are partakers of Christ’s sufferings, rejoice, so that at the revelation of his glory you also may rejoice with exceeding joy. (1 Peter 4:13)

Uncomplicated Christianity Archives - Uncomplicated Christianity

www.uncomplicatedchristianity.com

 

[DavidTree]

The Bible tells us that Jesus’ death was for us, He took our place and it was indeed a sacrifice. No one can deny that. However, the Bible never once states that Jesus’ death was legalistic or similar to the heathen forms of sacrifice. Nor does Scripture ever state that Jesus took God’s anger and wrath in our place appeasing God. Sure the Bible speaks of Jesus’ death as a substitute, and as a “propitiation”, but this does not automatically equate to Penal Substitution. The problem is, adherents to this false doctrine only see Penal Substitution when they read those words, despite the fact that Bible never states that God was appeased by expelling His wrath onto Jesus. Scripture actually must be taken gravely out of context to come to such a conclusion. Scripture teaches us that Jesus’ death reconciles us to God and is something we must participate in:

Penal Substitution Is not the Biblical Teaching on Salvation:​

The Bible tells us that Jesus’ death was for us, He took our place and it was indeed a sacrifice. No one can deny that. However, the Bible never once states that Jesus’ death was legalistic or similar to the heathen forms of sacrifice. Nor does Scripture ever state that Jesus took God’s anger and wrath in our place appeasing God. Sure the Bible speaks of Jesus’ death as a substitute, and as a “propitiation”, but this does not automatically equate to Penal Substitution. The problem is, adherents to this false doctrine only see Penal Substitution when they read those words, despite the fact that Bible never states that God was appeased by expelling His wrath onto Jesus. Scripture actually must be taken gravely out of context to come to such a conclusion. Scripture teaches us that Jesus’ death reconciles us to God and is something we must participate in:


Paul speaks of reconciliation and sharing in the death of Jesus: “one died for all, then all died.”. Clearly, Paul did not view Jesus’ death as a propitiation of God’s wrath. Likewise, Jesus saw His incarnation, death and ressurection as something we must participate in:


Yes, we are saved by Faith. I am not denying that, but faith is a first step that places us in a right relationship with God. We must follow. The word “follow” is found in the New Testament many times. It is most often used in terms of following evil, the world and your own desires contrasted with following God’s moral commandments, Jesus and the instructions of the Apostles. Following is an action we must choose to take. We participate with Jesus in His life, death and resurrection and this is what will lead us to salvation.

And this part is really important as this is a whole defeat of sin, not just a false masking as found Calvin’s doctrines of Penal Substitution and imputed righteousness. Jesus has defeated sin and death. He has made right what we caused at the fall. By faith in His whole incarnation, not just His death, we are also made right with God . We are reconcilled to Him and begin this journey:

Uncomplicated Christianity Archives - Uncomplicated Christianity

www.uncomplicatedchristianity.com

However, the Bible never once states that Jesus’ death was legalistic or similar to the heathen forms of sacrifice.

This is a blatant lie/error/falsehood
Currently, you are in (willful) ignorance of God's Word

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. - Prov 30:5-6

Believe the TRUTH and it will set you FREE = "for without the shedding of blood(legal/law requirement) there is no forgiveness of sins"

 

[praise_yeshua]

@Matthias @civic
If any denies that Christ's life was not a penal work on the behalf of those he was a surety for, then they are denying the very foundation bedrock of the gospel of Jesus Christ, there's no escaping of this fact, which I trust to prove.

Where is the word "penal" found in any English translation of the Bible? It isn't even in your KJV of choice.

I know you don't "judge" according to God's measure. I haven't seen one single person here or most anywhere establish any "penal" aspect of the "Atonement".

Not one person. Not you. Not @Dizerner. Not anyone. Yet, you love throwing around that words as if you understand it in the "mind of God".

I don't believe you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This is a blatant lie/error/falsehood
Currently, you are in (willful) ignorance of God's Word

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. - Prov 30:5-6

Believe the TRUTH and it will set you FREE = "for without the shedding of blood(legal/law requirement) there is no forgiveness of sins"

What are you guilty of? "Penal" requires guilt. So make this real. What are you guilty of?

Just FYI. The English word "Penal" comes from French......

Oh what a terrible origin that basically has "zero" origins in any biblical language.