Predestination and Determinism

[Administrator]

Thanks for sharing this with us, you have much in common with our @Administrator

I didn't do it, don't try to blame me. I have an ironclad alibi. OK The devil made me do it.

 

[Mod2]

I didn't do it, don't try to blame me. I have an ironclad alibi. OK The devil made me do it.

Ain't that special

 

[Administrator]

It is not that I had no answer, it is a matter that I thought the answer was none of your business.
However, in an exercise of casting pearls before swine ....

HOW COULD I POSSIBLY BE CHOSEN IN HIM WITHOUT BELIEVING IN HIM?

Before I believed in Him, I was a member of a gang. I was an arsonist. I smuggled drugs across state lines. I had been stabbed. I had shot someone. I had set an enemy on fire. I came to the reconciliation that I was unlikely to live more than another two years. My "philosophy of life" was Nihilism ... there is no "good" or "evil" ... they are artificial constructs. Killing a man to get money to survive makes me a "monster" according to the law, and killing a hundred men to capture a hill in their country made Sergeant York a "hero".

I was an atheist. I had carefully considered "the problem of evil" and come to the conclusion that one of two things was true:

• God was not "omnipotent", "omniscient" and "omnipresent". He COULDN'T do something about it because he was "powerless", "ignorant" or "busy somewhere else" ... conclusion: "god" is not "GOD" [he is either a little being, or a pure fiction.]
• God could do something and chose not to ... that is the definition of EVIL.

So which is it? Is god an "invisible unicorn" (something that does not exist) or a sadistic monster that delights in suffering?
LOGIC, since you are so fond of it, demands the conclusion of the atheist. Even if I was wrong, an EVIL god should be resisted rater than worshiped.

As I was preparing a suicide bomb to remove many people (mostly adversaries to 'my side') from the world, God appeared and laid claim to ownership of me [thus dispelling both possibilities ... clearly He exists and I had experienced His nature for myself].

How could I possibly NOT be "chosen in Him" before I "believed in Him"?

Been there done that have the scars to prove.

The bible says he that has been forgiven much loves much. Sounds like we're both in the loves much club. I believe God has his hand on me my whole life or I never would have survived till I was 30 and accepted him as my lord and savior.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@civic

If we are being honest (as Christian to Christian), then for every Paul, there is at least one Andrew, someone that seeks Jesus out to ask "where are you staying" and is told "come and follow" and freely chooses to do JUST THAT because that is what their heart had already been prepared to receive (like Lydia hearing Paul).

God just saves people like ME to remind the world that He still can ... GOD is GOD and, to quote Corrie Ten Boon: "He does as He pleases and He does it right well."

@atpollard

What He has done for others... He will do for you.

Is this in your theological vocabulary?

BTW, Lydia was already faithful. Just like Timothy, his faith began in his grandmother and was passed to his mother and then to Him. This has happened countless times throughout the ages of men. It is not something God refuses to do for the many.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Been there done that have the scars to prove.

The bible says he that has been forgiven much loves much. Sounds like we're both in the loves much club. I believe God has his hand on me my whole life or I never would have survived till I was 30 and accepted him as my lord and savior.

May I ask,

Do you think someone prayed for you? Prayer changes God.

The faithless don't care enough about their own to even pray for them. I believe God will do an extra work in the life of those that are my direct responsibility.... Because I ask Him to. I believe God enjoys when we care enough to pray for others. God changed the life of Job when he prayed for his friends. Faith to faith. Relationship to relationship.

 

[Administrator]

May I ask,

Do you think someone prayed for you? Prayer changes God.

The faithless don't care enough about their own to even pray for them. I believe God will do an extra work in the life of those that are my direct responsibility.... Because I ask Him to. I believe God enjoys when we care enough to pray for others. God changed the life of Job when he prayed for his friends. Faith to faith. Relationship to relationship.

Prayer changes things.

Oh what a testimony I have on that one. But I'll only post a short version. Every time that I would go visit my Dad in Arizona he always made sure that he told me that my mom and him prayed for me every night when they went to bed. For my salvation. Before I got saved I will tell you that was the most unlikely thing to ever happen. But it did.

Now for part two. My wife and I started praying for our son Jay and his salvation. He had a big time resentment against God and wanted nothing to do with him. He had a near-death experience and should not have survived. He had been stabbed in his Carotid arteries and should have bleed out. The doctor told us it was a miracle that he survived. They put him in a coma for a week. When we got him home and he was recuperating he started asking me questions about things he had read in the bible while he was in prison. As I made sure I sent him a bible and different Christian books during his incarceration.

That was about 5 years ago and he's a completely different person today. He quotes scripture back to me.

So I think we're both in agreement on this one, "God did that extra work". Praise His name, Thank you Jesus!

The phrase "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" is a part of a verse from the Bible, James 5:16. It means that the sincere and earnest prayer of a person who obeys God and lives according to His will has great power and effectiveness

 

[civic]

Prayer changes things.

Oh what a testimony I have on that one. But I'll only post a short version. Every time that I would go visit my Dad in Arizona he always made sure that he told me that my mom and him prayed for me every night when they went to bed. For my salvation. Before I got saved I will tell you that was the most unlikely thing to ever happen. But it did.

Now for part two. My wife and I started praying for our son Jay and his salvation. He had a big time resentment against God and wanted nothing to do with him. He had a near-death experience and should not have survived. He had been stabbed in his Carotid arteries and should have bleed out. The doctor told us it was a miracle that he survived. They put him in a coma for a week. When we got him home and he was recuperating he started asking me questions about things he had read in the bible while he was in prison. As I made sure I sent him a bible and different Christian books during his incarceration.

That was about 5 years ago and he's a completely different person today. He quotes scripture back to me.

So I think we're both in agreement on this one, "God did that extra work". Praise His name, Thank you Jesus!

The phrase "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" is a part of a verse from the Bible, James 5:16. It means that the sincere and earnest prayer of a person who obeys God and lives according to His will has great power and effectiveness

Amen !!!!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

That "mercy" that "God shows".. is The Cross of Christ.

And the DEVIL, teaches that this Blood and Death of Jesus that Jesus said is given to ALL, and John said is given to the World.... The Devil teaches that the Cross is not for everyone.

See that? That is to deny The Cross of Christ.... which is to insult God's Son and reject God's Grace.

Be careful that you dont believe what the Devil teaches as you dont want to become one of Satan's Ministers., or as Paul teaches...

""""And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light (Truth)."""

"""""So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as Ministers of righteousness."""

You are ignoring the context.

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

In other words, before they had done anything in their lives, God chose Jacob over Esau. There was no injustice in the choosing one over the other, because God will have mercy on whomever He has mercy.

 

[atpollard]

I was once discussing "God choosing" with a friend in the "International Ministry" business [things like creating interactive software so that illiterate people in rural China or people denied access to books in North Korea can "hear" the Gospel Message]. He made the interesting observation that when people talk about God choosing "some", everyone always assumes that it is all about being blessed (and many then shake their fist at the innate "unfairness" of it all). However, he pointed out that that was not the reality that the First Century Church knew. To be CHOSEN by God is better reflected in verses like Act 9:15-16 [NIV] But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name." and 2 Corinthians 11:23-31 [NIV] [I have] ... been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn? If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

What if THIS is what we have been CHOSEN for? What if THIS is what God (who foreknew us) has PREDESTINED us to? What if THIS is our gift from God? Do we still pity those that God has not chosen to SUFFER for His name? Do we still shake our fist at the gross INJUSTICE of it?


The LAST shall be FIRST. Remember who said that? He led by example.

 

[Rockson]

. However, he pointed out that that was not the reality that the First Century Church knew. To be CHOSEN by God is better reflected in verses like Act 9:15-16 [NIV] But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

Sure I think all can accept people have a call to the ministry. Doesn't mean they'll walk in it however and being chosen for something doesn't negate the possibility the other could reject what God had for them.

 

[synergy]

For starters, you do not predestined yourself. Speaking of beyond the Bible. You don't elect yourself. You don't place yourself in Christ. I try to avoid the ignorant arguments if I can. This one ranks right up there.

Of course I cannot predestined myself nor can I regenerate myself. Only a lunatic would say that. That goes to show how infantile your arguments are.

Therefore, the Biblical fact that only as a believer are you predestined by God is proven.

 

[synergy]

It is not that Biblical fact that I find repugnant. It is your snatching the "gift" of Ephesians 2:8-9 from the hand of God who "shows mercy on whom He shows mercy" [Romans 9] and claiming that SOVEREIGNTY for the heart of fallen men to empower God to save, or strip God of that power by superseding HIS will with their own will.

Nobody is "snatching" anything. We are aligning our will to God's will. It's called synergy.

You place so much emphasis on Philippians 2:12 ... So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; [NASB95] that you ignore the rest of the passage in Philippians 2:13 ... for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. [NASB95]

THAT, I find "repugnant".

Phil 2:12-13 are wonderful synergistic verses. A person who does not willingly and actively believe in Christ is only fooling himself. God is never fooled by those who are passive, not willing to believe Christ. Therefore, the doctrine of Be Inert, Do Nothing, and Wait for the Zapping is a sham at best.

Keep those synergistic verses coming!

 

[synergy]

Actually, the tense is AORIST:

Is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations. The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these include a view of the action as having begun from a certain point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point ("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point ("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars. The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should suffice in most cases.​

So the point is GOD FOREKNEW/KNOWS/WILL ALWAYS KNOW and PREDESTINED/PREDESTINES/WILL ALWAYS PREDESTINE and CALLED/CALLS/WILL ALWAYS CALL and JUSTIFIED/JUSTIFIES/WILL ALWAYS JUSTIFY and GLORIFIED/GLORIFIES/WILL ALWAYS GLORIFY ... "those" ... there is a specific group known to God that are part of an unchanging plan. Therein lies the COMFORT Paul deliver to those in distress. God started it, God will finish it and the end was settled from the beginning.

Ok. Since God is independent of time then the aorist tense for the word "glorified" makes lots of sense from God's point of view. In other words, every Christian will be glorified in the future. That takes nothing away from the fact that OT Saints and Martyrs are "glorified" in paradise right now. That's the point that Paul is trying to make to all those Christians that are seeing their colleagues being massacred by Roman authorities and wondering if this Christianity is worth it.

 

[synergy]

It is not that I had no answer, it is a matter that I thought the answer was none of your business.
However, in an exercise of casting pearls before swine ....

That was a general question. My intentions was not to pry into your personal life.

HOW COULD I POSSIBLY BE CHOSEN IN HIM WITHOUT BELIEVING IN HIM?

Before I believed in Him, I was a member of a gang. I was an arsonist. I smuggled drugs across state lines. I had been stabbed. I had shot someone. I had set an enemy on fire. I came to the reconciliation that I was unlikely to live more than another two years. My "philosophy of life" was Nihilism ... there is no "good" or "evil" ... they are artificial constructs. Killing a man to get money to survive makes me a "monster" according to the law, and killing a hundred men to capture a hill in their country made Sergeant York a "hero".

I was an atheist. I had carefully considered "the problem of evil" and come to the conclusion that one of two things was true:

• God was not "omnipotent", "omniscient" and "omnipresent". He COULDN'T do something about it because he was "powerless", "ignorant" or "busy somewhere else" ... conclusion: "god" is not "GOD" [he is either a little being, or a pure fiction.]
• God could do something and chose not to ... that is the definition of EVIL.

So which is it? Is god an "invisible unicorn" (something that does not exist) or a sadistic monster that delights in suffering?
LOGIC, since you are so fond of it, demands the conclusion of the atheist. Even if I was wrong, an EVIL god should be resisted rater than worshiped.

As I was preparing a suicide bomb to remove many people (mostly adversaries to 'my side') from the world, God appeared and laid claim to ownership of me [thus dispelling both possibilities ... clearly He exists and I had experienced His nature for myself].

How could I possibly NOT be "chosen in Him" before I "believed in Him"?

A bit more detail than what I was anticipating but nevertheless you gave us your testimony. Praise God that He saves us all from ourselves.

As for the term "in Him" or "in Christ Jesus", when one is "in Him" one is placed alongside Christ in the heavenly places. See Eph 2:6. Since there are no non-believers in Heaven then it stands to reason that one must believe "in Him" before one is chosen/positioned "in Him".

(Eph 2:6) and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

 

[praise_yeshua]

I was once discussing "God choosing" with a friend in the "International Ministry" business [things like creating interactive software so that illiterate people in rural China or people denied access to books in North Korea can "hear" the Gospel Message]. He made the interesting observation that when people talk about God choosing "some", everyone always assumes that it is all about being blessed (and many then shake their fist at the innate "unfairness" of it all). However, he pointed out that that was not the reality that the First Century Church knew. To be CHOSEN by God is better reflected in verses like Act 9:15-16 [NIV] But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name." and 2 Corinthians 11:23-31 [NIV] [I have] ... been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn? If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

What if THIS is what we have been CHOSEN for? What if THIS is what God (who foreknew us) has PREDESTINED us to? What if THIS is our gift from God? Do we still pity those that God has not chosen to SUFFER for His name? Do we still shake our fist at the gross INJUSTICE of it?


The LAST shall be FIRST. Remember who said that? He led by example.

Self serving bluster. You're blaming God for your poor choices.

God makes many choices throughout our lives based upon OUR willingness to serve Him.

"The Remnant" is proof that God doesn't need any of us for anything.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The very thought of the Remnant destroys the false doctrine of individual election.

God has MORE..... He doesn't need you.

There were seven thousand men that God could choose from among when Elijah HE was all that God had......

God has OPTIONS...

You would prefer that it only be YOU.....

 

[praise_yeshua]

Sure I think all can accept people have a call to the ministry. Doesn't mean they'll walk in it however and being chosen for something doesn't negate the possibility the other could reject what God had for them.

Judas was chosen and replaced. So was John Mark. So was Demas. The list goes on and on.

The false teaching of individual elect is nothing more than a self serving doctrine that comes from the flesh.

Calvinism = God can't do this without me.....

 

[praise_yeshua]

That was a general question. My intentions was not to pry into your personal life.

A bit more detail than what I was anticipating but nevertheless you gave us your testimony. Praise God that He saves us all from ourselves.

As for the term "in Him" or "in Christ Jesus", when one is "in Him" one is placed alongside Christ in the heavenly places. See Eph 2:6. Since there are no non-believers in Heaven then it stands to reason that one must believe "in Him" before one is chosen/positioned "in Him".

(Eph 2:6) and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Christ is certainly the Judge of who is and isn't included. They would rob Christ of that measure and Praise/Glory due only Him.

 

[Rockson]

The false teaching of individual elect is nothing more than a self serving doctrine that comes from the flesh.

The enemy (not the kind of flesh and blood) has an end goal always in mind which is to lessen and diminish one's inward vision and understanding of the gracious, kind, loving character of God. Such is the wrong Calvinism is guilty of doing along with some other religious systems as well.

 

[TomL]

That was a general question. My intentions was not to pry into your personal life.

A bit more detail than what I was anticipating but nevertheless you gave us your testimony. Praise God that He saves us all from ourselves.

As for the term "in Him" or "in Christ Jesus", when one is "in Him" one is placed alongside Christ in the heavenly places. See Eph 2:6. Since there are no non-believers in Heaven then it stands to reason that one must believe "in Him" before one is chosen/positioned "in Him".

(Eph 2:6) and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,