Predestination and Determinism

TomL said:
We are going to have to agree to disagree

I see no way of denying Christ determined to keep some in the dark

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


Mark 9:9: “As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.”

Matt. 16:20: “Then He warned His disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.”

Mark 3:12: “But he gave them strict orders not to tell who He was.”

Mark 8:30: “Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about Him.”

Mark 4:10–12 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

as it seems to me he definitely desired to keep some in the dark
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Got it. Just to clarify, I'm not denying that Jesus keep information from some. I'm saying that such was not necessary to accomplish the Atonement. I do believe those mentioned on John 12:40 were Reprobate due to the own actions in apostasy.
Something to consider.
Jhn 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

Which speaks more to the parable of the heir and that Jesus didn't seek to blind their minds to accomplish His purpose. Thanks
 
Presby02 said:
Why would you start a thread about something you know so little about?
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Calvinists ignorantly conflate Determinism and Predestination. One massive difference between them is when do they start. Let's investigate that by considering what we are predestined for.

We are predestined to:
  • a heavenly inheritance (Eph 1:3,11).
  • be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29, 1 Cor 15:47).
  • Adoption by Jesus to Himself (Eph 1:5, Rom 8:15-18) which looks towards redemption of the body at Christ’s 2nd coming (Rom 8:23).
Notice that all the above events are all in the future. There's nothing about having been determined to be saved or predestined to be regenerated, not in Ephesians, not even in the entire Bible. Regeneration by being sealed with the Holy Spirit is actually mentioned in Eph 1:13 but it's never listed as a having been a predestined item in the past for believers nor as a future predestined item for any of the unbelievers in the audience. Why is that? That's because our Predestination starts when we believe in Christ and are placed "in Christ" and not before. There's that all important "in Christ" qualifier.

Conclusion: The theory that in eternity past God unconditionally and irresistibly determined/predestined a portion of mankind to eternal life and all others to eternal damnation can be unceremoniously dismissed.
 
synergy said:
Calvinists ignorantly conflate Determinism and Predestination. One massive difference between them is when do they start. Let's investigate that by considering what we are predestined for.

We are predestined to:
  • a heavenly inheritance (Eph 1:3,11).
  • be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29, 1 Cor 15:47).
  • Adoption by Jesus to Himself (Eph 1:5, Rom 8:15-18) which looks towards redemption of the body at Christ’s 2nd coming (Rom 8:23).
Notice that all the above events are all in the future. There's nothing about having been determined to be saved or predestined to be regenerated, not in Ephesians, not even in the entire Bible. Regeneration by being sealed with the Holy Spirit is actually mentioned in Eph 1:13 but it's never listed as a having been a predestined item in the past for believers nor as a future predestined item for any of the unbelievers in the audience. Why is that? That's because our Predestination starts when we believe in Christ and are placed "in Christ" and not before. There's that all important "in Christ" qualifier.

Conclusion: The theory that in eternity past God unconditionally and irresistibly determined/predestined a portion of mankind to eternal life and all others to eternal damnation can be unceremoniously dismissed.
Click to expand...
Spot on brother !!!
 
synergy said:
Calvinists ignorantly conflate Determinism and Predestination. One massive difference between them is when do they start. Let's investigate that by considering what we are predestined for.

We are predestined to:
  • a heavenly inheritance (Eph 1:3,11).
  • be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29, 1 Cor 15:47).
  • Adoption by Jesus to Himself (Eph 1:5, Rom 8:15-18) which looks towards redemption of the body at Christ’s 2nd coming (Rom 8:23).
Notice that all the above events are all in the future. There's nothing about having been determined to be saved or predestined to be regenerated, not in Ephesians, not even in the entire Bible. Regeneration by being sealed with the Holy Spirit is actually mentioned in Eph 1:13 but it's never listed as a having been a predestined item in the past for believers nor as a future predestined item for any of the unbelievers in the audience. Why is that? That's because our Predestination starts when we believe in Christ and are placed "in Christ" and not before. There's that all important "in Christ" qualifier.

Conclusion: The theory that in eternity past God unconditionally and irresistibly determined/predestined a portion of mankind to eternal life and all others to eternal damnation can be unceremoniously dismissed.
Click to expand...
What about the chain of Romans 8?

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
[setting the tone that GOD CAUSES and these events are the result of HIS PURPOSE … the “first cause”]

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters;
[Foreknew comes before Predestined]

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called;
[Predestined comes before Called]

and these whom He called, He also justified;
[Called comes before Justified]

and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
[Justified comes before Glorified]

Not all of THESE events are in the FUTURE and PREDESTINED comes before most of them (all except Gods eternal personal relationship with a “chosen people” … Foreknew.)
 
atpollard said:
What about the chain of Romans 8?

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
[setting the tone that GOD CAUSES and these events are the result of HIS PURPOSE … the “first cause”]

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters;
[Foreknew comes before Predestined]

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called;
[Predestined comes before Called]

and these whom He called, He also justified;
[Called comes before Justified]

and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
[Justified comes before Glorified]

Not all of THESE events are in the FUTURE and PREDESTINED comes before most of them (all except Gods eternal personal relationship with a “chosen people” … Foreknew.)
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Actually all of the events are past tense, even glorified. Since when is a living believer glorified in the past sense? Are you yourself glorified, in the past tense? The answer is obviously No so there's more than meets the eye here.

What you need to understand is that Paul is addressing people who are seeing their fellow colleagues being eaten by lions and asking is this Christianity worth it. Well, Paul outright declares that believers (OT believers, martyrs, etc..) have those events as past tense for them. That's the hope for all living believers. There's nothing in there that proves that in eternity past God unconditionally and irresistibly determined/predestined a portion of mankind to eternal life and all others to eternal damnation.
 
synergy said:
There's nothing in there that proves that in eternity past God unconditionally and irresistibly determined/predestined a portion of mankind to eternal life and all others to eternal damnation.
Click to expand...
Except the entire passage taken in context … like reading all of Ephesians 1 and 2 and saying “WOW, God really did do everything for His glory!”

(Supralapsarianism is not taught in scripture and is not part of Particular Baptist theology … God predestines no one to damnation … we manage quite well on our own using just our fallen nature).
 
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synergy said:
Actually all of the events are past tense, even glorified. Since when is a living believer glorified in the past sense? Are you yourself glorified, in the past tense? The answer is obviously No so there's more than meets the eye here.

What you need to understand is that Paul is addressing people who are seeing their fellow colleagues being eaten by lions and asking is this Christianity worth it. Well, Paul outright declares that believers (OT believers, martyrs, etc..) have those events as past tense for them. That's the hope for all living believers. There's nothing in there that proves that in eternity past God unconditionally and irresistibly determined/predestined a portion of mankind to eternal life and all others to eternal damnation.
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There is no fulfillment of perfection apart from the Resurrection of the dead. The day when all mankind are once again joined together as one. It is impossible that conformity can ever exist completely without the change of flesh that must take place. They without us can not be made perfect.

It is teaching of Unity in Christ in us. It is the very nature of the Character of God that is at stake here. Love without measure. Unreasonable and undeserved.
 
atpollard said:
Except the entire passage taken in context … like reading all of Ephesians 1 and 2 and saying “WOW, God really did do everything for His glory!”
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There is no glory in evil. That is blaspheme. You find value in evil because you are depraved. Believe your own doctrine. Practice it. Stop making exceptions for yourself while denying it to others.
 
atpollard said:
Except the entire passage taken in context
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What context are you talking about to prove calvinism? That you are glorified? Please do tell us how you are glorified.
atpollard said:
… like reading all of Ephesians 1 and 2
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Read Eph 1:4 carefully:

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

How can you possibly be chosen in Him without believing in Him?
atpollard said:
and saying “WOW, God really did do everything for His glory!”
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Here come the strawmen like clockwork.
 
atpollard said:
Except the entire passage taken in context … like reading all of Ephesians 1 and 2 and saying “WOW, God really did do everything for His glory!”

(Supralapsarianism is not taught in scripture and is not part of Particular Baptist theology … God predestines no one to damnation … we manage quite well on our own using just our fallen nature).
Click to expand...
We? You don't believe "we".....you believe that you are different. Own it. Take pride in it. Shout it above all other voices to the contrary. Boast of your position while confining your brothers in Adam to damnation. How so very kind of you and "god like"
 
synergy said:
How can you possibly be chosen in Him without believing in Him?
Click to expand...
How did YOU believe in Him before the foundation of the world? (When YOU were chosen in Him).
 
synergy said:
Please do tell us how you are glorified.
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I am not blinded by the human pride that deludes me into thinking that the Great I AM requires my permission before HE can BE GOD!

(or was that the strawman, talking with Synergists gets so confusing some times) ;)
 
atpollard said:
I am not blinded by the human pride that deludes me into thinking that the Great I AM requires my permission before HE can BE GOD!

(or was that the strawman, talking with Synergists gets so confusing some times) ;)
Click to expand...
Such pride in not being blinded.....

You can't make this up. Men are such fickle creatures. They can't see their own pride because they are too busy hating others.
 

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