The sad things is when it seems one will is contrary to the other
So how can anyone believe God's revealed will when it is contrary to his secretive will.
Predestination and Determinism
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
So how can anyone believe God's revealed will when it is contrary to his secretive will.
Yes Just heard James White affirm God is the cause of all the evil in the world on Warren Mcgrew's Idol killer
Behold
Active Member
The will of God is that each of us come to understand that we are sinful in the eyes of A Holy God, and we can't be with Him forever, unless HE deals with what prevents us all from becoming "one with God", just as 1st Adam had this spiritual Union with God before lost it, willingly.
So, God, wrapped in Human flesh, virgin born, offers Jesus's Blood and Death to deal with our sin, and once our sin is dealt with, then what was preventing us from being accepted by God, is GONE.
God then gives each eternally forgiven Believer the "new Birth" and they become a "New Creation in Christ".. born again, as "one with God".
praise_yeshua
Active Member
James White is another one of those Calvinists that have been around for decades and never made a mistake once in anything they've ever said. Same goes with Piper, MacArthur, and others.
Last edited:
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Adam never died without God.
Behold
Active Member
What you said does not make any sense.
Can you be more specific ??? more clear?
See, when Adam sinned, his Spiritual union with God, (died)... this is to be separated from God, =Spiritually.
And this explains why we are to be SPIRITUALLY Born again.......as that restores us into the same Spiritual Union with God, that 1st Adam had, before he lost it by choosing to eat what was "forbidden" by God.
Biblelesson
Active Member
Because god's grace allows me to get my identity and security vertically, I'm freed to build on them horizontally...
No personal identity sounds a lot like a robot. That's usually pointed at Calvinist. What does the bible really say?
Paul writes in Colossians 3:2-3, "Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory." Knowing my life is in Christ gives me a fresh perspective that anchors my heart and attitude in every day life.
But if you are in Christ, no one and no thing can ever rob you of your identity in Him. Listen to what are Lord said about it Himself:" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." John 10:27-28
We are forever united to our Jesus. For now we live by faith, but will one day be with Him face to face for eternity. Praise the Lord that nothing can ever change that.
praise_yeshua said
No personal identity sounds a lot like a robot. That's usually pointed at Calvinist. What does the bible really say?
Paul writes in Colossians 3:2-3, "Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory." Knowing my life is in Christ gives me a fresh perspective that anchors my heart and attitude in every day life.
But if you are in Christ, no one and no thing can ever rob you of your identity in Him. Listen to what are Lord said about it Himself:" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." John 10:27-28
We are forever united to our Jesus. For now we live by faith, but will one day be with Him face to face for eternity. Praise the Lord that nothing can ever change that.
The Rogue Tomato
Active Member
Well done! I think we actually have a real mind-reader here.
Behold
Active Member
Paul said... """I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me""
Paul said, """That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;""
Paul said ""For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."""
Paul said.." I Die Daily"..
So, you feel that Paul is a Robot? @Biblelesson .
In that case you've proven that you are indeed the one who needs the bible lesson.
I hope you enjoyed it.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
That is what men claim. I challenge you to prove this from the Scriptures. Adam was targeted for death but he never died without God. God didn't abandon Adam or Eve. Adam was driven away from an easy life but God followed them in their suffering.
Do you really think God so easily abandons His own creation?
I'd love to have this conversation with everyone but I ask that you forget the traditions you've been given and embrace the Scriptures for what they declare.
Suffice it to say that Adam was not created in the garden to be Eternal. He was peccable and flesh from the beginning. Adam was incomplete. Being "born from above" is an appeal to a birth beyond Adam original "birth".
God's work in Adam is still not complete.
Last edited:
Biblelesson
Active Member
Well there you go. You asked a question and answered a question answered. Will sort of anyway.
God gave them over to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Romans 1:24
The Greek word translated “gave over” or “gave up” means “surrendered, yielded up, entrusted, or transmitted.” In this context, it refers to the act of God completely abandoning the unrighteous. As the wicked deserted God, God in turn deserted them, no longer giving them divine direction or restraint, but allowing them to corrupt themselves as they wished. Because they would not honor Him, He let them do what they pleased to dishonor themselves.
Being given over or yielded up to one’s sinful desires is a judgment from God. They were in a state of total depravity.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Far from it. The willing servant mentioned in Exodus 15
Exo 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
I don't see your personal identity anywhere in what you've referenced. Keep going. Keep searching. I made this claim for the first decades ago. I've debated this for many many years. All of you eventually run away.
Read it for yourself.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
You have no name.
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Geesh.... lets review.... My sheep. "I"... Christ... "give them eternal life".
Just where are you named?
Your stubborn self centered will can.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Last edited:
civic
Active Member
Yep
Behold
Active Member
No verse even imples that Adam was "targeted for death".
Who made Adam a "target for death"?
Hamas?
Iran?
Holy God does not fellowship, spiritually, with SIN.
And "all have sinned"....there are "none righteous, no not one"
So, the person has to be born again, as that is God's restoration of the spirit in the person, back into spiritual union with Himself.
This is why Jesus told YOU........"YOU must be born again"....or you will die and not be with God after your spirit leaves your body.
What EDIT taught you that Adam was not created to be Eternal when He was "created in the Likeness of God and the Word"?
No, you are incomplete until you have been born again as "ONE with God" exactly as Adam had this Spiritual Union relationship with God, before He and Eve, lost it.
Biblelesson
Active Member
Here's something to clarify and get a good understanding of Calvinism.
The substance of the Calvinistic doctrine is:—that God, from eternity, chose, or elected, certain men to everlasting life; and resolved, certainly and infallibly, to effect the salvation of these men, in accordance with the provisions of a great scheme which had devised for this purpose,—-a scheme without which no sinners could have been saved; and that, in making this selection of these individuals, who were to be certainly saved.
He was not influenced or determined by the foresight or foreknowledge, that they, as distinguished from others, would repent and believe, and would persevere to the end in faith and holiness; but that, on the contrary, their faith and conversion, their holiness and perseverance, are to be traced to His election of them, and to the effectual provision
He has made for executing His electing purpose or decree, as their true and only source,—they being chosen absolutely and unconditionally to salvation; and chosen also to faith, regeneration, and perseverance, as the necessary means, and in some sense, conditions, of salvation. Now, if this doctrine be denied, it is plain enough that the view which must be taken of the various points involved in the statement of it, is in substance this:—that God does not make from eternity any selection of some men from among the human race, whom He resolves and determines to save; that of course He never puts in operation any means that are fitted, and intended, to secure the salvation of those who are saved, as distinguished from others; and that, consequently, their faith and regeneration, with which salvation is inseparably connected, are not the gifts of God, effected by His agency, but are wrought by themselves, in the exercise of their own powers and capacities.
On this theory, it is impossible that God could have decreed or purposed the conversion and salvation of those who are saved, any more than of those who perish. And the only way in which their salvation, individually, could have come under God's cognizance, is that merely of its being foreseen as a fact future,—which would certainly take place—though He neither decreed nor caused it,—their own acts in repenting and believing, and persevering in faith and obedience, simply foreseen as future, being the cause, or ground, or determining principle of any acts which God either did or could pass in regard to them, individually, as distinguished from the rest of their fellow men.
This brings out the true, real, and only possible alternative in the case; and it is just in substance this: whether God is the the author and cause of the salvation of those who are saved? or whether this result is to be ascribed, in each case, to men themselves?
Calvinistic and Arminian writers have displayed considerable variety in their mode of stating and discussing this subject; and Calvinists, as well as Arminians, have sometimes imagined that they had fallen upon ideas and modes of statement and representation, which threw some new light upon it,—which tended to establish more firmly their own doctrine, or to expose more successfully that of their opponents.
But the practical result of all these ingenious speculations has always, upon a full examination of the subject, turned out to be, that the state of the question was found to be the same as before,—the real alternative unchanged,—the substantial materials of proof and argument unaltered; and the difficulties attaching to the opposite doctrines as strong and perplexing as ever, amid all the ingenious attempts made to modify their aspect, or to shift their position.
The substance of the Calvinistic doctrine is:—that God, from eternity, chose, or elected, certain men to everlasting life; and resolved, certainly and infallibly, to effect the salvation of these men, in accordance with the provisions of a great scheme which had devised for this purpose,—-a scheme without which no sinners could have been saved; and that, in making this selection of these individuals, who were to be certainly saved.
He was not influenced or determined by the foresight or foreknowledge, that they, as distinguished from others, would repent and believe, and would persevere to the end in faith and holiness; but that, on the contrary, their faith and conversion, their holiness and perseverance, are to be traced to His election of them, and to the effectual provision
He has made for executing His electing purpose or decree, as their true and only source,—they being chosen absolutely and unconditionally to salvation; and chosen also to faith, regeneration, and perseverance, as the necessary means, and in some sense, conditions, of salvation. Now, if this doctrine be denied, it is plain enough that the view which must be taken of the various points involved in the statement of it, is in substance this:—that God does not make from eternity any selection of some men from among the human race, whom He resolves and determines to save; that of course He never puts in operation any means that are fitted, and intended, to secure the salvation of those who are saved, as distinguished from others; and that, consequently, their faith and regeneration, with which salvation is inseparably connected, are not the gifts of God, effected by His agency, but are wrought by themselves, in the exercise of their own powers and capacities.
On this theory, it is impossible that God could have decreed or purposed the conversion and salvation of those who are saved, any more than of those who perish. And the only way in which their salvation, individually, could have come under God's cognizance, is that merely of its being foreseen as a fact future,—which would certainly take place—though He neither decreed nor caused it,—their own acts in repenting and believing, and persevering in faith and obedience, simply foreseen as future, being the cause, or ground, or determining principle of any acts which God either did or could pass in regard to them, individually, as distinguished from the rest of their fellow men.
This brings out the true, real, and only possible alternative in the case; and it is just in substance this: whether God is the the author and cause of the salvation of those who are saved? or whether this result is to be ascribed, in each case, to men themselves?
Calvinistic and Arminian writers have displayed considerable variety in their mode of stating and discussing this subject; and Calvinists, as well as Arminians, have sometimes imagined that they had fallen upon ideas and modes of statement and representation, which threw some new light upon it,—which tended to establish more firmly their own doctrine, or to expose more successfully that of their opponents.
But the practical result of all these ingenious speculations has always, upon a full examination of the subject, turned out to be, that the state of the question was found to be the same as before,—the real alternative unchanged,—the substantial materials of proof and argument unaltered; and the difficulties attaching to the opposite doctrines as strong and perplexing as ever, amid all the ingenious attempts made to modify their aspect, or to shift their position.
Predestination in Historical Theology
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Funny. Nope God.
Adam didn't physically die for close to a 1000 years. Peter talked about this. Don't be ignorant of this....
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Then you have no fellowship with God. You have sin you don't even know about. God's loved me and fellowshipped with me for many many years when I was "full of myself" and didn't even know who I was being. If God did what you claimed, God would abandon us all. Don't be silly enough to claim holiness that you do not have.
I know you don't pay attention to much of what I say... but I dealt with this recently in this forum. Read the words. Don't listen to others.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Paul is quoting Psalm 14. Psalm 14 was written a long time after Adam sinned. Paul was talking about Jews and Gentiles. Read verse #9.
He wasn't referencing Abel nor the faithful generations BEFORE Abraham.
There is no human life without the breath of God that God gave to Adam and Eve personally. That breath was spiritual and makes us spiritual beings.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
No cult taught me anything. I can read. I've been reading for myself for a very long time.
Adam was formed from what? God ahead and answer me? I'll stop and wait on you to answer this....
Adam and Eve was NEVER what we shall be. God's creative process in humanity wasn't complete in Adam/us when Adam sought to save his wife from Satan.
Johann
Active Member
For since, in fact, in the wisdom of •God, the world through •wisdom knew not •God, •God delights, through the stupidity of the heralding, to save •those who are believing,
(CLV) 1Co 1:22
since, in fact, + Jews signs are requesting, and Greeks wisdom are seeking
CLV) 1Co 1:23
yet we/ are heralding Christ °crucified~, to Jews, indeed, a snare, yet to the nations stupidity,
Don't somehow think Scriptures are in agreement with you.
synergy
Active Member
Thank you for that information. This is a classic case of a false dichotomy. It's either the Calvinist way or this humanist boogeyman. Such ignorance. No one claims that their salvation is "wrought by themselves, in the exercise of their own powers and capacities". Only lunatics say that and that's what calvinists want everyone to think non-Calvinists are.
Biblelesson
Active Member
So I take it you're a non-Calvinist? But just for the record whether you are or not I wouldn't want anyone to think you're a lunatic. But you may be right
Behold
Active Member
I didnt post that "Adam died physically".
Try to read more carefully @praise_yeshua .
Adam's "death" was "spiritual separation from God".
2nd Adam, who is "God manifested in the Flesh" came to resolve that, as John 3:16
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 3:17
Im born again, many years ago.
Here i am...found.
= "As Christ is......so are the born again.....in THIS World".
You pretend to know what you are talking about.
So, there is your answer.
yes, that is Gen 2:7, and that is John 20:22.
However, there is LIFE of the Body.... and there is Spiritual Union with God.
2 different situations.
Ive no reason to doubt that you've been doing a lot of reading.
A EDIT taught you that, as the reality is...when a person is born again, they become re-established SPIRITUALLY.... exactly as Adam was in Spiritual Union with God, before He decided to choose to disobey God's command.
Similar threads
