Pauls use of Predestination

[synergy]

That doesn't address the reason why some believe and others don't. My point to @synergy was that if you believe this:

God's will is to save all without exception.
But God doesn't save all without exception, he leaves it up to you.

That's because we are all created as volitional beings. That's part of our human nature. We must willingly believe in Christ or else it's a sham. God is not fooled. The calvinist idea of be inert, do nothing, and wait for the zapping is a sham at best.

That places man's will above God's will. It's an impotent god who wants to save everyone but is unable to do so because man won't let him.

So you're ok with people being dragged kicking and screaming into Heaven? Calvinists are certainly a strange lot.

So you're stuck with two possible conclusions: Either your god is impotent, or the real God doesn't want to save all without exception.

The real God wants our wills to be conformed to His will.

(Luke 22:42) saying, Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.

(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let the one hearing say, Come! And let the one who is thirsty come. And he willing, let him take of the Water of Life freely.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

That's because we are all created as volitional beings. That's part of our human nature.

Yes, you believe God gave us the power to override His will. His will is that everyone be saved, but he gave us a will that is able to supersede His will. That's lifting man above his creator.

 

[civic]

That's because we are all created as volitional beings. That's part of our human nature. We must willingly believe in Christ or else it's a sham. God is not fooled. The calvinist idea of be inert, do nothing, and wait for the zapping is a sham at best.

So you're ok with people being dragged kicking and screaming into Heaven? Calvinists are certainly a strange lot.

The real God wants our wills to be conformed to His will.

(Luke 22:42) saying, Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.

(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let the one hearing say, Come! And let the one who is thirsty come. And he willing, let him take of the Water of Life freely.

And all of Gods children said : AMEN !!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

That's because we are all created as volitional beings. That's part of our human nature. We must willingly believe in Christ or else it's a sham. God is not fooled. The calvinist idea of be inert, do nothing, and wait for the zapping is a sham at best.

So you're ok with people being dragged kicking and screaming into Heaven? Calvinists are certainly a strange lot.

That's a gross misrepresentation of my position, let alone Calvinism.

The real God wants our wills to be conformed to His will.

But your god is unable to make that happen when man trumps his will. And your god designed it that way on purpose.

You have a choice here:

1. It is God's will that everyone without exception be saved.
2. It is man's will that determines if he is saved.

Since not everyone is saved, you have to pick #2, which places man's will above God's will. That's worshiping the creature rather than the creator.

 

[civic]

That's a gross misrepresentation of my position, let alone Calvinism.



But your god is unable to make that happen when man trumps his will. And your god designed it that way on purpose.

You have a choice here:

1. It is God's will that everyone without exception be saved.
2. It is man's will that determines if he is saved.

Since not everyone is saved, you have to pick #2, which places man's will above God's will. That's worshiping the creature rather than the creator.

Your god who controls everyone and everything cannot accomplish his will since the Bible says he is not willing that anyone perish but desires ( his will) for all men to come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth to be saved.

This proves Calvinism / determinism to be false.

hope this helps !!!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Your god who controls everyone and everything cannot accomplish his will since the Bible says he is not willing that anyone perish but desires ( his will) for all men to come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth to be saved.

This proves Calvinism / determinism to be false.

hope this helps !!!

God is not willing that any of the elect perish. That's where your logic fails.

 

[synergy]

God is not willing that any of the elect perish. That's where your logic fails.

That sentence can only be found in the imaginary Elect Standard Version Bible. That's where your case fails.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

That sentence can only be found in the imaginary Elect Standard Version Bible. That's where your case fails.

Context is what defines "any" to be "any of the elect. If you insist "any" means "any of all people without exception", then again, your god has failed. He is not able to carry out his will because man's will trumps your god's will. And, once again, you have elevated man above God.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Here's the context you are omitting.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

[a] you

Now, whether it's "us" or "you" (Peter's audience), he's talking about the elect.

 

[synergy]

Context is what defines "any" to be "any of the elect. If you insist "any" means "any of all people without exception", then again, your god has failed. He is not able to carry out his will because man's will trumps your god's will. And, once again, you have elevated man above God.

Once again you exposed your poor understanding of Greek. ἀνθρώπους translates to men. That's why Anthropology is the History of Man (all men) and not just the History of the Elect as you would have it. Stop embarrassing yourself with your dirt poor knowledge of Greek.

(1 Tim 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
(1 Tim 2:4) who will have all men (ἀνθρώπους) to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[civic]

God is not willing that any of the elect perish. That's where your logic fails.

Sorry that’s a big giant no no adding words to scripture. Nowhere in the passage is the elect mentioned that’s your eisegesis at work once again .

Another failed attempt and a big strikeout.

You are projecting again since it’s not in the verse so it’s your logic failing , not mine.

 

[TibiasDad]

So you're stuck with two possible conclusions: Either your god is impotent, or the real God doesn't want to save all without exception.

False dichotomy! You’ve conveniently left out that God could sovereignly choose to necessarily have man do something before He will act.

Whoever believes receives eternal life.
Whoever repents receives forgiveness of sins.

Doug

 

[synergy]

Sorry that’s a big giant no no adding words to scripture. Nowhere in the passage is the elect mentioned that’s your eisegesis at work once again .

Another failed attempt and a big strikeout.

You are projecting again since it’s not in the verse so it’s your logic failing , not mine.

On the one hand he says that man cannot trump God's will and on the other hand he trumps it by rewriting Scripture. Logic 101 is not part of the Calvinist Curriculum.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, you believe God gave us the power to override His will. His will is that everyone be saved, but he gave us a will that is able to supersede His will. That's lifting man above his creator.

There isn't any real tangible merit of belief apart from the free willful exercise there of. The absence of self will never creates a meaningful relationship.

It is really silly how you believe that it is impossible for God to "win" the will of men to Himself.

 

[TibiasDad]

But your god is unable to make that happen when man trumps his will. And your god designed it that way on purpose.

Non sequitur argument. It does not follow that because man can choose to not submit to his will that God is “unable to make that happen”!

If God allows man to choose, it says nothing about his capacity to make him choose.

Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

Non sequitur argument. It does not follow that because man can choose to not submit to his will that God is “unable to make that happen”!

If God allows man to choose, it says nothing about his capacity to make him choose.

Doug

This is actually going somewhere.........

 

[TibiasDad]

This is actually going somewhere.........

I’m not sure what your meaning is here…


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

I’m not sure what your meaning is here…


Doug

The conversation everyone is having in this thread.

 

[civic]

On the one hand he says that man cannot trump God's will and on the other hand he trumps it by rewriting Scripture. Logic 101 is not part of the Calvinist Curriculum.

Bingo

 

[civic]

Non sequitur argument. It does not follow that because man can choose to not submit to his will that God is “unable to make that happen”!

If God allows man to choose, it says nothing about his capacity to make him choose.

Doug

Ditto