Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

[FreeInChrist]

Intro:

This is a debate that anyone can join into so long as you KEEP IT ON TOPIC.

Specifically posted in this forum due to the fact that it is the bible that is at the heart of both beliefs and it is good to get it sides defined.

The sides being where you come down on Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship ?

Prologue: of sorts....

The following cut and pastes came from The member Comments of the current limited debate "The Deity of Jesus Christ , True or False" and has been suggested again by @Red Baker.

Copy starts now to bring all up to date........................................

@Red Baker
@FreeInChrist

No, you are not following alone carefully. I must run, be back mid afternoon to answer your full post.

I was rushing my self ~meant to write along, not alone!

You want a debate... Here is an idea....

Save time and make it simple: Eternal Sonship vss Incarnate Sonship which is biblical? I'll be on the Incarnate Sonship side, and maybe @dwight92070 can be with me, since what I have read from some of his posit, he seems to be an incarnate believer, even if he does not call himself that.

Or, better yet, just start a thread on this subject, since there are Christians on both side of this subject and some have never even considered the other side and all of its ramifications.

@FreeInChrist

@FreeInChrist

I was rushing my self ~meant to write along, not alone!

Save time and make it simple: Eternal Sonship vss Incarnate Sonship which is biblical? I'll be on the Incarnate Sonship side, and maybe @dwight92070 can be with me, since what I have read from some of his posit, he seem to be an incarnate believer, even if he does not call himself that.

Or, better yet, just start a thread on this subject, since there are Christians on both side of this subject and some have never even considered the other side and all of its ramifications.

Ill take it under advisement and let you know.

Or better yet.....

Anyone reading this in any way interested in either side of this?

@360watt

Ill take it under advisement and let you know.

Or better yet.....

Anyone reading this in any way interested in either side of this?

I would also be on the Jesus always being God side. Pre existent as the Son. Son as in 'image ' 'expression ' rather than 'born out of'. But this may be a bit too technical of a debate. I can try though.

Red
@360watt

I would also be on the Jesus always being God side. Pre existent as the Son. Son as in 'image ' 'expression ' rather than 'born out of'. But this may be a bit too technical of a debate. I can try though.

Brother, the good thing is this: there are believers on both side, one just not yet educated on the Sonship doctrine.

I was first taught the eternal Sonship position, but soon found that it has some serious hole in its position. Many good men that I have high regard for taught the eternal Sonship position. But, we can not follow man, but the scriptures.

I do not know all that Michael Servetus believe in his strong disagreement with John Calvin, that cost him his life. but it was over this very issue, to what degree we shall never know since Servetus' works were burned with him. But histroy tell us his last words were these:

AI Overview

Michael Servetus's last words, uttered as he was being burned at the stake in 1553, were, "Jesus, Son of the Eternal God, have mercy on me". These words are considered a reflection of his anti-Trinitarian views, as he emphasized Jesus' identity as the "Son of the Eternal God" rather than "eternal Son of God".

Red
One more thought.

John Calvin did not have Servetus burned, because of his understanding, the men of Geneva did. Calvin labored to get him to changed his understanding but refused to do so. Michael Servetus went to Geneva to confront Calvin, which was not wise on his part. I have read some things where Calvin and him disagree but only from Calvin's writings, so, who knows, I would have love to hear exactly what Michael Servetus did truly believe, but his confession sounded very good, so who knows.

@Eternally Grateful

@360watt

Brother, the good thing is this: there are believers on both side, one just not yet educated on the Sonship doctrine.

I was first taught the eternal Sonship position, but soon found that it has some serious hole in its position. Many good men that I have high regard for taught the eternal Sonship position. But, we can not follow man, but the scriptures.

I do not know all that Michael Servetus believe in his strong disagreement with John Calvin, that cost him his life. but it was over this very issue, to what degree we shall never know since Servetus' works were burned with him. But histroy tell us his last words were these:

AI Overview

View attachment 2234
Michael Servetus's last words, uttered as he was being burned at the stake in 1553, were, "Jesus, Son of the Eternal God, have mercy on me". These words are considered a reflection of his anti-Trinitarian views, as he emphasized Jesus' identity as the "Son of the Eternal God" rather than "eternal Son of God".
Click to expand...

I would be curious to understand how someone who does not believe in the eternal essence of the son, can trust in the cross for salvation. and be satisfied with this.

If Jesus is mere man. How could he pay for all of our sin?

@Red Baker

I would be curious to understand hcan trust in the cross for salvation. and be satisfied with this.

If Jesus is mere man. How could he pay for all of our sin?

The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.

Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.

You said: "How someone who does not believe in the eternal essence of the son, can trust in the cross for salvation. and be satisfied with this. If Jesus is mere man. How could he pay for all of our sin?"

By the very fact God was his Father, being the very express image of who God is, more than qualify him to be the very person for God to laid help upon to secure the salvation of his elect.

@Eternally-Grateful

@Eternally-Grateful


The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.

Begotten is his humanity..,

Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.

You said: "How someone who does not believe in the eternal essence of the son, can trust in the cross for salvation. and be satisfied with this. If Jesus is mere man. How could he pay for all of our sin?"

By the very fact God was his Father, being the very express image of who God is, more than qualify him to be the very person for God to laid help upon to secure the salvation of his elect.
Click to expand...

I ask again

How can you trust a God who punishes a mere man for your salvation. And not the eternal God

Scripture said it is through Jesus all things were created.

It calls him God

Jesus said before abraham came into existence. he always existed (he is eternal)

I mean I do not get it.

@Red Baker

I ask again

How can you trust a God who punishes a mere man for your salvation. And not the eternal God

Scripture said it is through Jesus all things were created.

It calls him God

Jesus said before abraham came into existence. he always existed (he is eternal)

I mean I do not get it.

Later, I have meeting. I have explained this at length a few times over, but will be happy to do so again Late this afternoon ~ EST.

@FreeInChrist

@Eternally-Grateful


The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction.

You say your beliefs are grounded in the bible....

I will repeat from before
Col 1: 15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Irrefutable proof that Jesus was before creation. Before any creation, even of the angels as Col 1:15 reads
Now... let us move on tyo what it says elsewhere in the Holy Scriptures and why.
In eternity past
Matthew 11:27: “All these things have been given to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father and anyone to whom the Son of Man decides to reveal him.”

Grant R. Osborne: “Matthew’s use of ‘know’ ([epiginōskō is pronounced eh-pea-gih-noh-skoh, and the “g” is hard as in “get”] the present tense is gnomic, knowledge shared in eternal past, present, and eternal future) here is critical … it is likely that there is perfective force in the prefix [epi] –with the meaning ‘know exactly, completely, through and through’ (BAGD, 291), with the added idea of recognizing and acknowledging”

The bottom line is that the Greek present tense is timeless and supports the notion that the Father and Son knew each other intimately for eternity, in the past, present and future—forever. Jesus did not become the Son at his birth or baptism
check out ~ (Matthew: Zondervan Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament [Zondervan, 2010], p. 440).

Back to John ever so briefly:

John 1: 1-2 states that God and the Word existed before creation:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

This verse further clarifies the identity of God and the Word ~ they ARE Father and Son, who came from the Father in heaven

John 1:14 states ~ And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

then

John 17:5 states ~ “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Right here, for no one to miss... Jesus is saying with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jesus is stating to the Father they were together before the world was.
If this is not convincing you yet.... answer this

So how does Jesus have the status of being the Word, and how does God have the status of being God before the world existed but do not have the status of the Father and Son before creation?
How do you understand John 5:26? “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Do you see this gift cannot be temporary because the Father also has life in himself eternally. Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this.
How about John 17:24? “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Can you not understand this is the Son talking to his Father about when they were before the foundation of the world.
John 1:18 says: No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
First note the further proof of Jesus being God here. Plus Jesus more fully reveals their status and nature of Father and Son...beyond God and Word. Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth.
John 8:38. “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” The point is they were in close relationship as we have seen in John 1:1-2, 14 and 17:5. This relationship in the Father’s presence happened before the incarnation. To be the Father, he had to have at least one son in his presence. That Son is Jesus.
@FreeInChrist

I would also be on the Jesus always being God side. Pre existent as the Son. Son as in 'image ' 'expression ' rather than 'born out of'. But this may be a bit too technical of a debate. I can try though.

I would welcome you, but at the same time I will ask @civic or @Administrator if they can mopve this from where Red said he wanted a debate into its own thread... not necessarily a debate opne but could be.... so comments from that debate dont
bump into these.

I already answered one to Red... so basically in my mind it is on... no matter where.

So come on in, the water is fine

@Administrator

I would welcome you, but at the same time I will ask @civic or @Administrator if they can mopve this from where Red said he wanted a debate into its own thread... not necessarily a debate opne but could be.... so comments from that debate dont
bump into these.

I already answered one to Red... so basically in my mind it is on... no matter where.

So come on in, the water is fine

You can setup whatever you like and it's fine with me. Let me know if you need any help.

@Red Baker

You say your beliefs are grounded in the bible....

In the morning, I will answer ~ no problem.

@civic

I would welcome you, but at the same time I will ask @civic or @Administrator if they can mopve this from where Red said he wanted a debate into its own thread... not necessarily a debate opne but could be.... so comments from that debate dont
bump into these.

I already answered one to Red... so basically in my mind it is on... no matter where.

So come on in, the water is fine

I’m willing to defend the eternal Son side

@Red Baker

I will repeat from before
Col 1: 15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Irrefutable proof that Jesus was before creation. Before any creation, even of the angels as Col 1:15 reads
Click to expand...

In his Deity AS GOD, he created all things. No problem, by separating Jesus' complex nature.

You said: "irrefutable proof that Jesus was before creation."

Jesus as the Son of God was conceived and born around two thousand years ago, we have the record of his birth recorded for us in Luke's gospel. God had no Son until then, only in his eternal purposes did he purpose to have a Son.

The bottom line is that the Greek present tense is timeless and supports the notion that the Father and Son knew each other intimately for eternity, in the past, present and future—forever. Jesus did not become the Son at his birth or baptism
check out ~ (Matthew: Zondervan Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament [Zondervan, 2010], p. 440).

That is not scriptural but someone's opinion with no proof other than the Greek said so, and that does not count. I have more than once explain the meaning of Son and Father relationship to each other. This teaching destroys Jesus' Deity as God

John 1: 1-2 states that God and the Word existed before creation:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

It does not said anything close to that. John is simply stating the the Word was God without any qualifications. I can and will come back later and address John 1:1 in depth. I'm heading back to bed, I could not sleep so I got up, but now very shortly I'm heading.

Jesus is stating to the Father they were together before the world was.

Jesus was the God of Genesis 1:1, so yes in his Divine nature he was God. Even while on earth, he was IN HEAVEN as far as being God manifest in the flesh!
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

So how does Jesus have the status of being the Word,

Jesus was NOT the Word in the beginning, God was the Word, Jesus was the Son of God born in time.

how does God have the status of being God before the world existed but do not have the status of the Father and Son before creation?

One more time:

The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.

Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time ~ Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation ~ therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity ~ is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.

How do you understand John 5:26? “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Do you see this gift cannot be temporary because the Father also has life in himself eternally. Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this.
How about John 17:24? “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Can you not understand this is the Son talking to his Father about when they were before the foundation of the world.
John 1:18 says: No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
First note the further proof of Jesus being God here. Plus Jesus more fully reveals their status and nature of Father and Son...beyond God and Word. Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth.
John 8:38. “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” The point is they were in close relationship as we have seen in John 1:1-2, 14 and 17:5. This relationship in the Father’s presence happened before the incarnation. To be the Father, he had to have at least one son in his presence. That Son is Jesus.
Click to expand...

I'm going to bed..I'll pick up here later. It is past 2:00 am

OKAY PEOPLE... LET THE GAMES BEGIN

AND KEEP IT ON TOPICE, PLEASE........................................................ IF NOT I ASK ADMIN TO DELETE THOSE POSTS.

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist
I did not know this was set up, maybe you can move my post that I just posted to you to here. Thanks

 

[Jim]

The sides being where you come down on Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship ?

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that is not a theological problem; rather, it is a semantics problem. The real problem is deeper than what is presented there as the debatable question. Man, that is the human being, is composed of a body and a spirit. The man Jesus, likewise, was composed of a body and a spirit. The body was that living mass of flesh generated by the impregnation of Mary by the Holy Spirit. So then, I believe the real question that must be answered is, "What (or who) was the spirit that, together with the body of flesh, constituted the man Jesus?"

In Hebrews 2 we read, 14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

Who or what is the "he himself" that partook of the flesh and blood? Whatever or whoever that is, is eternal. Assign whatever name you wish to that entity of "he himself" that you like. Preferably for me it would be biblical.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Col 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

kind of hard to fathom this is mere man

 

[FreeInChrist]

@FreeInChrist
I did not know this was set up, maybe you can move my post that I just posted to you to here. Thanks

Ok... will do

 

[FreeInChrist]

@FreeInChrist
I did not know this was set up, maybe you can move my post that I just posted to you to here. Thanks

Ok... will do

RED
@FreeInChrist

How do you understand John 5:26? “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Do you see this gift cannot be temporary because the Father also has life in himself eternally. Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this.

There's not one word in John 5:26 that speaks of God imparting the power to have life within Jesus Christ before he was born of flesh and blood.
For as the Father hath life in himself.

Almighty God, Father of Jesus Christ, is the ultimate Source and Power of life. He breathed into man’s nostrils the breath of life for him to be a living soul. He was the power in Elijah and Elisha in the cases of resurrecting two sons. The LORD Jehovah has eternal life Himself and give it to whomsoever He will.

So hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.

The same independent, sovereign way God has life, He has given it to the Son, when he was made flesh, until then God had no Son. We fully agree that Jesus Christ has the sovereign authority to give or withhold life from anyone. He lives, was dead, and is alive forever (Rev 1:18). He rules hell and death. He has the key of David as Almighty King (Rev 3:7). He only opens and shuts. Jesus is the resurrection and the life in all ways ~ bodily, spiritual, and eternal.

You said: "Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this."
You are adding "eternally". @FreeInChrist, does Son and father have any meaning to you according to their true meaning?

How about John 17:24? “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

What part? "You loved Me before the foundation of the world".

God loved the his elect before the foundation of the world, yet we were born in time. We might add, whatever glory Christ had with his father before the foundation of the earth, was in Christ's deity as the God of Genesis 1:1.

John 1:18 says: No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
First note the further proof of Jesus being God here. Plus Jesus more fully reveals their status and nature of Father and Son...beyond God and Word. Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth.

Jesus Christ was very close to God by His divine nature, begetting, and Spirit.

You said: "Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth."
You are assuming something you cannot prove. Not only that, you by these statements you are making are denying Jesus' Deity as being eternal both ways! A Son is not before the Father, impossible. I truly do not think you desire to deny Jesus' Deity, but by your statements you are. You might want to reconsider what you are saying, and I trust that you will.

John 8:38. “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” The point is they were in close relationship as we have seen in John 1:1-2, 14 and 17:5.

Stop and think...Notice what the Lord Jesus said:
“I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.”

So, I ask you this question.... since the Jews did that which they had see with their father, does this make them eternal children in the sense you are trying to make Jesus the eternal Son of God by what he had see with his father? I do not think you want to go there with this verse!

The lesson is not His incarnational sonship as much as His unity in doctrine. Just as following the lesson is not biological connection but unity in spirit ~ the Jews did works of the devil. Like father, like son …

I'm convinced you need to study this out more than you have it seems to me.

 

[FreeInChrist]

RED
@FreeInChrist

There's not one word in John 5:26 that speaks of God imparting the power to have life within Jesus Christ before he was born of flesh and blood.
For as the Father hath life in himself.

Almighty God, Father of Jesus Christ, is the ultimate Source and Power of life. He breathed into man’s nostrils the breath of life for him to be a living soul. He was the power in Elijah and Elisha in the cases of resurrecting two sons. The LORD Jehovah has eternal life Himself and give it to whomsoever He will.

So hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.

The same independent, sovereign way God has life, He has given it to the Son, when he was made flesh, until then God had no Son. We fully agree that Jesus Christ has the sovereign authority to give or withhold life from anyone. He lives, was dead, and is alive forever (Rev 1:18). He rules hell and death. He has the key of David as Almighty King (Rev 3:7). He only opens and shuts. Jesus is the resurrection and the life in all ways ~ bodily, spiritual, and eternal.

You said: "Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this."
You are adding "eternally". @FreeInChrist, does Son and father have any meaning to you according to their true meaning?

What part? "You loved Me before the foundation of the world".

God loved the his elect before the foundation of the world, yet we were born in time. We might add, whatever glory Christ had with his father before the foundation of the earth, was in Christ's deity as the God of Genesis 1:1.

Jesus Christ was very close to God by His divine nature, begetting, and Spirit.

You said: "Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth."
You are assuming something you cannot prove. Not only that, you by these statements you are making are denying Jesus' Deity as being eternal both ways! A Son is not before the Father, impossible. I truly do not think you desire to deny Jesus' Deity, but by your statements you are. You might want to reconsider what you are saying, and I trust that you will.

Stop and think...Notice what the Lord Jesus said:
“I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.”

So, I ask you this question.... since the Jews did that which they had see with their father, does this make them eternal children in the sense you are trying to make Jesus the eternal Son of God by what he had see with his father? I do not think you want to go there with this verse!

The lesson is not His incarnational sonship as much as His unity in doctrine. Just as following the lesson is not biological connection but unity in spirit ~ the Jews did works of the devil. Like father, like son …

I'm convinced you need to study this out more than you have it seems to me.

I will respond but I need to be out this AM... Hang tight and while I am gone here is a homework
assignment for you.

Go back through the post I sent to you with all the Scriptures listed and tell me how they are wrong.

Ill be back later.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that is not a theological problem; rather, it is a semantics problem. The real problem is deeper than what is presented there as the debatable question. Man, that is the human being, is composed of a body and a spirit. The man Jesus, likewise, was composed of a body and a spirit. The body was that living mass of flesh generated by the impregnation of Mary by the Holy Spirit. So then, I believe the real question that must be answered is, "What (or who) was the spirit that, together with the body of flesh, constituted the man Jesus?"

In Hebrews 2 we read, 14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

Who or what is the "he himself" that partook of the flesh and blood? Whatever or whoever that is, is eternal. Assign whatever name you wish to that entity of "he himself" that you like. Preferably for me it would be biblical.

It is theological to the extent that Jesus... or if you prefer Word... was the son before creation or the son on after incarnation .

The Holy Bible is full of the references to the Son before creation.

OK... gotta run... will be back later

 

[FreeInChrist]

Col 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

kind of hard to fathom this is mere man

Good,

But is the Him here (Jesus) the Son only after his birth into a human or as it says in vs 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist was he the Son then?

I say yes, Red says no.

I'm running late, I'll be back

 

[Jim]

It is theological to the extent that Jesus... or if you prefer Word... was the son before creation or the son on after incarnation .

What exactly does the word "son" mean? In the case of Jesus Christ, does it even have meaning other than referencing the human being born of Mary? If so, what precisely is that meaning? Or is it simply a name, an identifier, that you apply to the spiritual being that existed before creation?

The Holy Bible is full of the references to the Son before creation.

Could you elaborate on that?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Good,

But is the Him here (Jesus) the Son only after his birth into a human or as it says in vs 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist was he the Son then?

I say yes, Red says no.

I'm running late, I'll be back

Jesus was confronted by the pharisees. They Mocked him when he said he has seen abraham. (john 8)

Jesus response. Before abraham was (in the greek genesthai - to become to take place) I AM (in the greek Ego Eimi - literally I always was)

even the jews their knew he claimed to be God. by their reaction.

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him;

 

[civic]

Col 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

kind of hard to fathom this is mere man

Notice how consistent Scripture is placing the Son, not the man Jesus in the creation account of all things. We see the same thing below in Hebrews where the Son is the Lord who created the world and the heavens plural.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”

Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”[

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Notice how consistent Scripture is placing the Son, not the man Jesus in the creation account of all things. We see the same thing below in Hebrews where the Son is the Lord who created the world and the heavens plural.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”

Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”[

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

people make it so complicated. its really quite simple

 

[civic]

If I send my son to the store for me then my son already exists so that I can send him to the store.

If the Father sends the Son into this world then the Son already exists to be sent from heaven to this earth.

Below we see Scripture affirms the Sons pre-existence prior to the Incarnation.


John 17:1, 5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Notice above its the Son with the Father sharing the same glory together with Hm before creation, before the world came into existence. The same below. The Word who was God is the Son. Scripture interprets scripture. Hermeneutics 101.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son).

Hebrews 1:8-12
But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9;You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

Colossians 1:15-19

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


And Here Jesus who is both God and man says that the Father sent the Son. This shows the Son existing before becoming man.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

John tells us the same below:

1 John 4:9
This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.

1 John 4:10
10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

As does Paul below:

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,

Galatians 4:4-5
But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, / to redeem those under the law, that we might receive our adoption as sons.

You cannot send Someone who does not exist, ie the Son.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

1 John 4:9. toward us—Greek, "in our case."

sent—Greek, "hath sent."

into the world—a proof against Socinians, that the Son existed before He was "sent into the world." Otherwise, too, He could not have been our life (1Jo 4:9), our "propitiation" (1Jo 4:10), or our "Saviour" (1Jo 4:14). It is the grand proof of God's love, His having sent "His only-begotten Son, that we might live through Him," who is the Life, and who has redeemed our forfeited life; and it is also the grand motive to our mutual love.

1 John 1:1-4
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

1 John 3:8- The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.



We clearly see the Father in the O.T.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Isa 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Deu 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

And the Son

Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like the son of god

Psalm 2:12
Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?Who has gathered the wind in His fists?Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?Who has established all the ends of the earth?What is His name or His son’s name?

Daniel 7:13
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like the son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

Matthew 11:27: “All these things have been given to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father and anyone to whom the Son of Man decides to reveal him.”

“Matthew’s use of ‘know’ ([epiginōskō is pronounced eh-pea-gih-noh-skoh, and the “g” is hard as in “get”] the present tense is gnomic, knowledge shared in eternal past, present, and eternal future) here is critical … it is likely that there is perfective force in the prefix [epi] –with the meaning ‘know exactly, completely, through and through’ (BAGD, 291), with the added idea of recognizing and acknowledging” (comment on 11:27).

The bottom line is that the Greek present tense is timeless and supports the notion that the Father and Son knew each other intimately for eternity, in the past, present and future—forever. Jesus did not become the Son at his birth or baptism (Matthew: Zondervan Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament [Zondervan, 2010], p. 440). https://drjimsebt.com/2023/04/17/when-did-jesus-become-the-son-of-god/



John 5:26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. (John 5:26)

This grant cannot be temporary because the Father also has life in himself eternally. Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this.


John 17:24:
24 Father, those whom you have given me, I want them to be with me where I am, so that they may see my glory which you have given me because you have loved me before the foundation of the world. (My translation)

Being a Father implies a Son. What was the Father doing before the foundation or creation of the world? He was loving his Son.

John 1:18 says: “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.” Jesus more fully reveals their status and nature–Father and Son–beyond God and Logos. Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth.

Jesus says that he was in the presence of the Father: “I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence” […] (John 8:38). The term “presence” can be translated as “alongside” or “next to” the Father. The point: they were in close relationship as we see in John 1:1-2, 14 and 17:5. This relationship in the Father’s presence happened before the incarnation. To be the Father, he had to have at least one son in his presence. That Son is Jesus.

Hebrews 1:2 says: “but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.” That verse says that the Son was the person through whom God made the universe. He was the Son before creation, long before his birth. That verses also identifies who the Logos was in John 1:1-4.

Hebrews 1:3:
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being […] (Heb. 1:3)

God’s radiance and his being are eternal because light that does not radiate is not light, and God’s being is not temporary with a beginning; therefore the Son is also eternal

conclusion: this debate is over the Son is Eternal just as the Father is Eternal and the Holy Spirit is Eternal. We call Them the Trinity- One God, 3 Persons identified as Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

 

[Red Baker]

I will post an article that I did a few years back when debating someone on the same issue as the topic under consideration.

I will start out by asking two questions and then I will give a few reasons why I'm convinced the the eternal Sonship position is not correct and when taken to its logical conclusion, then the person holding to this doctrine ends up denying the Deity of Jesus Christ. I'm very much are aware that men much deeper in the scriptures than myself held to the Eternal Sonship position, but, I cannot follow men over the scriptures even if I have them in high regards. This issue has been a heated discussion as far back as the apostles, just look at church history and one can see. Even our Lord Jesus Christ asked this question:

Matthew 22:42-46~"Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions."

The Pharisees though Christ was no more than a natural son of David. Then The Lord Jesus asked them: "How then doth David in spirit call him Lord," Jehovah God said unto my Lord,.....if David refer to Christ as his Lord, then how is he hi s son? A father does not refer to a son as HIS Lord. Proving that Christ was more than a man! Did this humble them? No, it made their hearts even more harden than they were already. Men today are still debating the Sonship of Jesus Christ, was Jesus jut a man and no more than man? Some say yes. Some will go as far as to say he is the eternal Son of God, without even trying to define their usage of phrase, eternal Son of God. If one choses to use the phrase Eternal Son, then we must press them to explain how he is the eternal Son.

Question #1~ Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.

The answer to that questions is NO! So how can one believe in eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ? A Sonship relationship that was before the biblical testimony of Luke 1:11-35. I must stand upon God's own testimony of the conception of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Man.

Question #2~ Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting in question #1? Surely not.

And we ask ~ "How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ in his Deity is self-existence and independent"? We shall prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense.

Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things ~ the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense. There is no possible medium. Either it is so, or not so. We know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh before Jews and Gentiles and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.

If we speak of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, then we must be able to comprehensibly define our terms used or confess that we are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensibly define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done.

The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least to be able and willing to tell their own meaning in the use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough?

I want to give you not only reasons why we reject the eternal Sonship, but would like to ask you, or anyone some questions, I have about ten or so. Consider:

When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underived, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?

We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise. I would like to consider a few reasons why I know that the eternal Sonship position is a serious error.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

If I send my son to the store for me then my son already exists so that I can send him to the store.

Brother I will address all of your scriptures once I'm finish and you and other can address mine. I know there are some objections and it is only fair to address them. Your first one is weak very weak. God sent John the Baptist into the world, yet he was born only six months before Christ. John the Baptist is not eternal and I know you know that.

John 1:6​

“There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.”

You might want to scratch that point off from being the one you start with. Not a very good start for you.

But, let me finish with mine and then we shall see where this shall go.

 

[civic]

@civic

Brother I will address all of your scriptures once I'm finish and you and other can address mine. I know there are some objections and it is only fair to address them. Your first one is weak very weak. God sent John the Baptist into the world, yet he was born only six months before Christ. John the Baptist is not eternal and I know you know that.

John 1:6​

“There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.”

You might want to scratch that point off from being the one you start with. Not a very good start for you.

But, let me finish with mine and then we shall see where this shall go.

Nice try but a failure since John did not pre exist his human birth. The was no incarnation with John. In fact John said 2 times Jesus who was born 6 months after John existed before him.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I will post an article that I did a few years back when debating someone on the same issue as the topic under consideration.

I will start out by asking two questions and then I will give a few reasons why I'm convinced the the eternal Sonship position is not correct and when taken to its logical conclusion, then the person holding to this doctrine ends up denying the Deity of Jesus Christ. I'm very much are aware that men much deeper in the scriptures than myself held to the Eternal Sonship position, but, I cannot follow men over the scriptures even if I have them in high regards. This issue has been a heated discussion as far back as the apostles, just look at church history and one can see. Even our Lord Jesus Christ asked this question:

The Pharisees though Christ was no more than a natural son of David. Then The Lord Jesus asked them: "How then doth David in spirit call him Lord," Jehovah God said unto my Lord,.....if David refer to Christ as his Lord, then how is he hi s son? A father does not refer to a son as HIS Lord. Proving that Christ was more than a man! Did this humble them? No, it made their hearts even more harden than they were already. Men today are still debating the Sonship of Jesus Christ, was Jesus jut a man and no more than man? Some say yes. Some will go as far as to say he is the eternal Son of God, without even trying to define their usage of phrase, eternal Son of God. If one choses to use the phrase Eternal Son, then we must press them to explain how he is the eternal Son.

Question #1~ Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.

The answer to that questions is NO! So how can one believe in eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ? A Sonship relationship that was before the biblical testimony of Luke 1:11-35. I must stand upon God's own testimony of the conception of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Man.

Question #2~ Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting in question #1? Surely not.

And we ask ~ "How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ in his Deity is self-existence and independent"? We shall prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense.

Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things ~ the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense. There is no possible medium. Either it is so, or not so. We know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh before Jews and Gentiles and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.

If we speak of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, then we must be able to comprehensibly define our terms used or confess that we are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensibly define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done.

The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least to be able and willing to tell their own meaning in the use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough?

I want to give you not only reasons why we reject the eternal Sonship, but would like to ask you, or anyone some questions, I have about ten or so. Consider:

When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underived, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?

We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise. I would like to consider a few reasons why I know that the eternal Sonship position is a serious error.

1. God in his perfect form can not die
2. God in his perfect form can not sin
3. because of A and B, God can not pay for the sin of mankind, or claim he lived sinless and fulfilled the law in his form of God.

so he had to take the form of Man. Set aside all his diety (the characteristics you mentioned) so he in perfect love could die for all creation.

The problem you run into is if Jesus was Marely a created being, how could he take on the sins of all mankind.. Let alone, every sin I will ever be guilty of in my entire life on this earth?

 

[FreeInChrist]

What exactly does the word "son" mean? In the case of Jesus Christ, does it even have meaning other than referencing the human being born of Mary? If so, what precisely is that meaning? Or is it simply a name, an identifier, that you apply to the spiritual being that existed before creation?

Could you elaborate on that?

God's only begotten son.

I will repeat from above.
Col 1: 15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

The first born of ALL creation. When do you believe creation started.
Even if you believe that he only became son after birth... This tells a different story.
First born is born and if born has a Father and unless you know something I do not, God
the father in heaven was Jesus' only Father.

Col 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Irrefutable proof that Jesus was before creation. Before any creation, as Col 1:15 reads
Now... let us move on tyo what it says elsewhere in the Holy Scriptures and why.

In eternity past
Matthew 11:27: “All these things have been given to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son of Man decides to reveal him.”

Grant R. Osborne: “Matthew’s use of ‘know’ ([epiginōskō is pronounced eh-pea-gih-noh-skoh, and the “g” is hard as in “get”] the present tense is gnomic, knowledge shared in eternal past, present, and eternal future) here is critical … it is likely that there is perfective force in the prefix [epi] –with the meaning ‘know exactly, completely, through and through’ (BAGD, 291), with the added idea of recognizing and acknowledging”

The bottom line is that the Greek present tense is timeless and supports the notion that the Father and Son knew each other intimately for eternity, in the past, present and future—forever. Jesus did not become the Son at his birth or baptism
check out ~ (Matthew: Zondervan Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament [Zondervan, 2010], p. 440).

Back to John ever so briefly:

John 1: 1-2 states that God and the Word existed before creation:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

This verse further clarifies the identity of God and the Word ~ they ARE Father and Son, who came from the Father in heaven

John 1:14 states ~ And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

then

John 17:5 states ~ “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Right here, for no one to miss... Jesus is saying with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

And at this point it is a great place for me to stop right now because if you deny what Jesus is saying then
it is useless to go on. And I would love your comments on this specific chapter before I do.

 

[civic]

God's only begotten son.

I will repeat from above.
Col 1: 15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

The first born of ALL creation. When do you believe creation started.
Even if you believe that he only became son after birth... This tells a different story.
First born is born and if born has a Father and unless you know something I do not, God
the father in heaven was Jesus' only Father.

Col 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Irrefutable proof that Jesus was before creation. Before any creation, as Col 1:15 reads
Now... let us move on tyo what it says elsewhere in the Holy Scriptures and why.

In eternity past
Matthew 11:27: “All these things have been given to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son of Man decides to reveal him.”


The bottom line is that the Greek present tense is timeless and supports the notion that the Father and Son knew each other intimately for eternity, in the past, present and future—forever. Jesus did not become the Son at his birth or baptism
check out ~ (Matthew: Zondervan Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament [Zondervan, 2010], p. 440).

Back to John ever so briefly:

John 1: 1-2 states that God and the Word existed before creation:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

This verse further clarifies the identity of God and the Word ~ they ARE Father and Son, who came from the Father in heaven

John 1:14 states ~ And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

then

John 17:5 states ~ “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Right here, for no one to miss... Jesus is saying with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

And at this point it is a great place for me to stop right now because if you deny what Jesus is saying then
it is useless to go on. And I would love your comments on this specific chapter before I do.

There are way to many passages that must be ignored or twisted to deny that the Son is eternal in the same way the Father is eternal.