Omniscience????

[praise_yeshua]

No, Jesus said, "I am the beginning and the end". Therefore, He exists in my past, present and unknown to me future. Where I can only be in the NOW.

I read C.S Lewis in your comments. I know C.S Lewis. You're repeating what he said. Not what God has revealed. There is not such thing as the "Eternal now".

There is past, present (NOW) and future with God. This all combines to form an endless Eternity.

What about "worlds without end"? Have you ever studied that statement in Scripture? I have. Please answer if you've ever studied this before personally. Don't go "study it now" and pretend you have. Just want to make sure that I'm actually dealing with an opposing mature position on this topic. Most people don't have enough knowledge to even form an opinion. They just repeat others.

 

[Jim]

Feel free to go back through this thread and deal with my comments concerning the Scriptures that say otherwise. You can begin with Jesus associating Himself with the Great "I AM" (God) in declaring Himself "Beginning and End". "Alpha and Omega". A paradoxical expression represent the entirety of His own personal existence. It is an expression that establishes that His essence is a duration of time without end.

Thusly, I feel confident in saying that Eternity is not the absence of time but an endless measure of time.

There is no such thing as the "Eternal Now".

The "Beginning and End" or the "Alpha and Omega" are merisms. They do not attempt to say that Jesus has a beginning and an end or that there is a first or a last to Jesus.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The "Beginning and End" or the "Alpha and Omega" are merisms. They do not attempt to say that Jesus has a beginning and an end or that there is a first or a last to Jesus.

Did I say Jesus had a beginning? You just said exactly what I said a "different way"....

I don't believe Jesus had a beginning nor that there is an end to Jesus. It is certainly a merism but even merism teach something.......

You're trying to get me to discount what the merism teaches. I will not.

 

[praise_yeshua]

My argument, if you will, is that God created Time, and holds it in His Hands like a globe. Therefore, He exists in my future, my past and my present at the same time. He knows my end from my beginning, because for Him, my end has already happened, HE is there right now. But I can't see it, because I don't have power to go back in my past, where God exists, and I don't have power to go into my future, where God exists. Because I am constrained by the elements of "Time", as we know it, while God is not, because God is "Omniscient".

I know this. God was in the past. He hasn't forgotten anything. He doesn't need to travel to know something.... or "spin the globe".

At the very least, you must admit that this position presents a scenario wherein God LEARNS......................

At least admit this. Such a fact causes problems with your intended position.

 

[Jim]

You're trying to get me to discount what the merism teaches. I will not.

No I am trying to get you to discount even the notion of time as you know it, which is a physical entity, outside of this physical creation.

 

[Studyman]

I know. I'm not sure how what I said gave you the impression that I didn't understand this. Sorry. To me, this is the most common position relative to basis construct of the argument.

It's hard to follow you sometimes.

C.S. Lewis was a very influential Anglican. In my mind, he basically started this "concept" that is found in modern Christian thought.

I don't read, and have never studied CS Lewis, or any other philosopher of this world, given the warnings of the Jesus "of the Bible". If you would post what is actually written in Scriptures, I would love to examine and discuss them.

He did this in opposition to the teaching of Calvinistic doctrines. He came up with a premise to support Omniscience from an Arminian perspective. He need a way of presenting God as knowing all things past, present and future.

Like I said, and have always said, I am opposed to the doctrines and traditions of the religious sects and businesses which came out of the Reformation. I am only interested in what the scriptures teach. I believe God knows the end from the beginning, because HE said so. Not because someone else said so. The God I know, knows everything that is possible for a human being to know or even contemplate, and so much, much more. And this too, is not because you or Civic or another preacher told me. But because it is written in Scriptures.

Is. 55: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Is. 46: 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Clearly Isaiah presented God as "knowing all things past, present and future." My belief is founded on the Words of God HE inspired to be written in the Holy Scriptures, not CS Lewis or Calvin, or Wesley, or Arminius.

If you have some scriptural support for your position, please show it.

I've asked other people before to establish the necessity of Omniscience relative to Deity. I've never meet anyone who could do just that.

What then, in your religion, is the purpose of the Prophets, if not to establish the Omniscience relative to Deity? Why did Jesus give us the Words of His Father, If not to establish the necessity of Omniscience relative to Deity"

Is. 44: 6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

Is this not God, through Isaiah, "establishing the necessity of Omniscience relative to HIMSELF"?

Why did God do the Miracles in Egypt, if not "to establish the necessity of Omniscience relative to Deity". Why did Jesus bring Lazarus back from the dead.

John 11: 40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, "Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me." 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

Isn't Jesus presenting a God here that knows everything, and is all powerful? And why did HE do these things, if not To establish before the people that were there, the Omniscience relative to God, His Father?

God is God no matter what man insist He is. I think no less of God "because He doesn't meticulously know every single detail of all things past and future."

Can you provide any Scripture in which even ONE Prophet, or the Lord's Christ, or any servant of God in the Scriptures, promotes a God who doesn't know everything about us, past present and future, even the number of our hairs?

I would like to see it, since I can find no such teaching.

In fact, to say such things. Fully quantifies God. If God knows all things as most people reference them..... then ever how large that "sum" is.... it is still quantifiable. Thusly, you're quantifying God.

I'm believing what is written about God in the holy scriptures and posted them. That is not "ME" quantifying God, it is the people HE sent to teach me HIS Inspired Word, quantifying God. I just believe them.

Luke 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them "is forgotten before God?" 7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

You are the one who said "I think no less of God "because He doesn't meticulously know every single detail of all things past and future."

How is this statement not quantifying God?

It really is a empty argument to me. I believe God is unquantifiable in His Entirety. Even though we can certain know somewhat about Him now.

How can men know "GOD", if they refuse to accept what HE Inspired to be written about Him in the Law and Prophets?

Jesus once said "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Yes, it seems we have opposite views regarding the God and Father of the Lord's Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No I am trying to get you to discount even the notion of time as you know it, which is a physical entity, outside of this physical creation.

So you reference the "notion" that time is a creation?

There is zero Scriptures that establish that premise. It is an invention of man.

Is that how you're going to approach this topic? I'm giving you details of what I believe and you're just accepting your own notions.

Well... I hope you realize that bare minimum, my "notion" is equal to your "notion" of choice.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It's hard to follow you sometimes.

Peter said Paul was too...... (just making the point). Jesus told His disciples that there many things He had to say to them but they were not ready to hear them. The same is true of all men. I've had people say things in the past to me that I thought were crazy to only get to the point later to have to admit they we right. I had so rejected the concept at a fundamental level that there was no reasoning with me.

These are complex topics. It is difficult to deal with any subject matter that begins with the conclusion already established. That is how man treats historical doctrine.

I do not take this approach. I work from the foundation out/up. I want to know how everything fits together. Everything. It is how Paul appealed to Timothy to embrace the Scriptures. To "dissect" them to the point of identify all the pieces that vary from one another and how they connect to one another to form the whole.

I started this a very long time ago. Much like everyone else, I began my journey based upon what I was taught. After I was born again, I began desiring to know God more and more. I eventually found an end to myself. I realized that I needed to be taught/lead of God personally. I abandoned most everything I was taught and sought to establish my own understanding through the guidance of the Spirit of God. It has been a difficult journey for me. I tend to make people angry. Sooner or later, I tend to make even my closet friends angry with me. My wife, my children. Everyone at some level or another because I endlessly challenge their perspectives. I do this because that is who I am. I challenge myself more than I do any others. I am constantly reconsidering my positions relative to what I discover through knowing God and examining our human condition and existence.

No offense, but I'm way ahead of you in this conversation. I really want to find out if I'm wrong. I do. I have the desire to know where I'm wrong. I can tell you, if you get me there, I will thank you and I will change my position. I have no desire to be anything other than right. Even then, being right only gets us so far in our existence. Sometimes.... it doesn't matter relative to loving one another.

I don't read, and have never studied CS Lewis, or any other philosopher of this world, given the warnings of the Jesus "of the Bible". If you would post what is actually written in Scriptures, I would love to examine and discuss them.

Brother, C.S. Lewis is the man that began the doctrine you referenced. The "Now" of God. Some have tried to say they "originated" the "Eternal Now" new age philosophy. They didn't.

We all have baggage. You've heard this before. It is so engrained in society that is all around us. Doesn't matter if you've actually studied CS Lewis or not. Those are his words.

 

[Jim]

There is zero Scriptures that establish that premise. It is an invention of man.

You think time is an invention of man?

Ok, I am done here.

God bless you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Like I said, and have always said, I am opposed to the doctrines and traditions of the religious sects and businesses which came out of the Reformation. I am only interested in what the scriptures teach. I believe God knows the end from the beginning, because HE said so. Not because someone else said so. The God I know, knows everything that is possible for a human being to know or even contemplate, and so much, much more. And this too, is not because you or Civic or another preacher told me. But because it is written in Scriptures.

Even the Scriptures have the opinions of translators and what should and shouldn't be canonized. I've found it essential to know that subject as well. English is a horrible language with many preconceptions "baked in" that have no place in understanding the Scriptures.

Take for example. I believe you probably expect a mansion in your future for serving God. Did you know that the only reason that the KJV reads "mansion" is because of the Latin influence upon English.

Myself, I'm looking for Jesus. I don't really care to believe I've got anything more than a "place" in the Kingdom of God. Correct me if I'm wrong. I know I'm ramble a little here but your view is problematic in many ways. You have many things to address before you can probably accept what I'm saying. It is a process. It has been for me.

Is. 55: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Is. 46: 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Clearly Isaiah presented God as "knowing all things past, present and future." My belief is founded on the Words of God HE inspired to be written in the Holy Scriptures, not CS Lewis or Calvin, or Wesley, or Arminius.

If you have some scriptural support for your position, please show it.

I have. Don't pretend I haven't. You may disagree but don't say I haven't made an argument. I have. You simply reject it. This is a conversation that is not complete. I will precede ever how I feel necessary to continue.

Is 46 doesn't say what you insist it says. Isa 55 means nothing more than establishing the very real fact that the both of us are on the same "ground" with God. You don't know the fulness of the knowledge of God. You have no information that I don't have myself. You have no advantage in your argument by quoting Isa 55:7. I don't even understand how you think that means anything in the context of our discussion. You simply post without reason. Explain your reason or I will accept the obvious. You believe you know God better than I do. I reject such a claim of special revelation from you.

This is taking too much of my time at the moment. I don't remember what you said about doing a video conference. I don't even think I read it. I've been struggling to give time to all these comments.

Isa 46 simple states that God declares His council and has His way.

I say..... Who said anything differently. I didn't. God will speak in the future and it will be so. This doesn't mean that the future already exists. Prove it. You're making assumptions that I reject.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You think time is an invention of man?

Quote where I said this exact thing. I didn't. The teaching you're referencing is an invention of man.

Ok, I am done here.

God bless you.

Your choice.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What then, in your religion, is the purpose of the Prophets, if not to establish the Omniscience relative to Deity? Why did Jesus give us the Words of His Father, If not to establish the necessity of Omniscience relative to Deity"

Is. 44: 6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

Is this not God, through Isaiah, "establishing the necessity of Omniscience relative to HIMSELF"?

No. It is not. First, God didn't give this to you. He didn't give this to US. He gave this to Isaiah to preach to a sinful people that rejected God. Not all of the generations of humanity have known these words. So don't use "us" as being everyone.

At this fundamental level, your argument fails. Adjust your argument or concede the point.

God is Eternal. He is not going anywhere. He is not changing. He is no different today than He was in the past. There is no necessity for Omniscience in your reference. He is simply is Eternal. He isn't going anywhere even though the future doesn't exist. Not meticulously knowing everything that will happen doesn't change the fact that He doesn't have absolute power.

If you're familiar with these arguments, you should know that the doctrine of Omnipotence stands on its own. It doesn't need any context of "all knowledge" to be a perfect representation of God's Character.

Isn't Jesus presenting a God here that knows everything, and is all powerful? And why did HE do these things, if not To establish before the people that were there, the Omniscience relative to God, His Father?

Why the need for Omniscience when God is all powerful? Do you believe that Omnipotence requires "all knowledge"? I don't. No matter what can ever possibly happen, God is all powerful.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Can you provide any Scripture in which even ONE Prophet, or the Lord's Christ, or any servant of God in the Scriptures, promotes a God who doesn't know everything about us, past present and future, even the number of our hairs?

I would like to see it, since I can find no such teaching.

God doesn't know my sin. I don't how many times I've said this now. God doesn't know my sin. Does God still know your sin?

My God forgives and forgets.....

I ask you not mix your response to this particular response of mine with any other comments. Please deal specifically with this comment.

I KNOW God forgives and FORGETS..... because He said He did.

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

I actually believe what I just posted..... I believe what God said in these verses. To believe this I must believe and accept that God doesn't know everything.....

Tell me why you don't agree. God is willingly forgetful.

I like how I've heard others put it. My sins are GONE...........

There is east and west but in the context of the expression they never meet. Does this sound familiar? Beginning and End.... never meeting?

A straight line perhaps?

 

[Studyman]

I knew that is what you believe. I knew it because this is a common position within "Reformed Theology". It is true of Arminian and many Calvinists. I've argued this for a long time among Christians. If the forums at bible.org were still around I would show what I said 25 years ago with those that hold this position. It is not new to me.

Well, I believe God knows the end from the beginning, because the Scriptures say so. I don't know or even care about the position of reformers. And I posted Scriptures which direct my understanding for your review and examination.

Ultimately, I disagree completely. God knew it for a certainty because He was there... when it happened. God is not absent everything that exists when it exists.

You lost me again. Are you saying God knew it for a certainty, because HE was there when it happened? That is my stated position.

Jer. 1: 4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Therefore, God knew Jeremiah was going to be His Prophet, because God was there when it happened, in the realm God exists in. I believe this is because God existed in Jeremiah's past, present and future, even before Jeremiah was born.

I need to stop and ask you really pay attention to what you wrote here......

You're saying that GOD MUST.... travel..... to KNOW... something.

No, that isn't what I'm saying, here is my stated position;

"But it is said that God and His Son has no beginning and no end. So if God created Time, He would know the end of time from the beginning of time. Like a globe in His Hand. Since He knows the beginning of time, from the end of time, in His Realm, everything within the realm of time has already happened.

So I'm not saying God has to travel anywhere. He is a Spirit, holding His creation in His Hands, like a Globe, in my view. His Spirit is everywhere in His creation, Past, present and future. So I am not saying "God must Travel to KNOW something". If you would consider all my posts, you could see that when I reference God going back in time, or going into the future, I mean HE already exists in both places.

My bad, I should have been more careful. I will post the following correction to more precisely define my position, as it is told in other posts on this thread.

"because HE is not constrained by the "Time" HE created. He can go "Back in Time" "exists in the past", and can see exactly what happened" and HE can go "into the Future" "Exists in the future", and can see exactly what will happen. He is not held by the same constraints as we are, or even Jesus the man."

He knows the end of this world, from the beginning of this world, because in His Realm, my end, and the end of this world has already happened.

There is a larger context of "reason" here. The question must be asked.....
Does God reason?

Why? Why does the question, "What if God Created "Time" itself, as we know it", require such a question?

Job 38: 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; 13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

I have no reason to ask such a question. God has already explained to me who HE is and who created all these things in my existence, including Time itself, as we know it.

If that answer is YES. The you have sequence. You have a thought predicated upon a previous action/event. This requires sequence. One can not exist without the other.

It would be so kind of you, and would help me to understand your philosophy, if you would post just a few Scriptures that support it. Then I would be able to understand where your thinking is coming from.

Please explain how God "travels"?

I'm not trying to be "smart" here. I'm not. I believe your response brings us to "equal ground" here. You insist that time is not necessary but yet you insist that time is necessary."

Again, my argument is that "Time" as we know it, is not necessary or even relevant for God. This is obvious to me because He has no beginning, and no ending. He doesn't grow old, nor is HE ever young. He has no need of time to show Him the seasons, or "Grow in knowledge". Or qualify for battle, as those 20 years and older.

But in the World that HE created there is a "beginning and an end" of Everything. I believe this, not because another voice in the garden told me, but because it is actually written;

Ecc. 3: 1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose "under the heaven":

10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men "to be exercised in it".

11 He hath made every thing beautiful "in his time": also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

So we get to the point of defining TIME.

Which I have defined repeatedly for 25 years that time is "sequence". Precept upon precept. Line upon line. Thought upon thought. All existing in order from beginning to end of a endless duration. Eternity.

But this philosophy doesn't reflect that God existed "Before" HE created "line upon line, precept upon precept", or at the very least, you imply that the heavens and earth as they exist now, are "Eternal".

It would be great if you could provide some scriptural evidence, showing how you came to this conclusion.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well, I believe God knows the end from the beginning, because the Scriptures say so. I don't know or even care about the position of reformers. And I posted Scriptures which direct my understanding for your review and examination.

I have dealt with both. You are struggling. You're ignoring large portions of my response and repeating yourself.

You lost me again. Are you saying God knew it for a certainty, because HE was there when it happened? That is my stated position.

I've already explained why YOU don't understand me. Not going to deal with it again.

Therefore, God knew Jeremiah was going to be His Prophet, because God was there when it happened, in the realm God exists in. I believe this is because God existed in Jeremiah's past, present and future, even before Jeremiah was born.

Did God spin "his globe of time"..... to know Jeremiah?

I'm going to start insisting that we narrow our comments. That is "getting out of hand".

No. I don't believe your example that God had to spin "his globe" to know the future of Jeremiah.

I believe God knew Jeremiah before He was born.... because He planned Jeremiah.

Just so you are aware. I believe God has a plan. However, God doesn't plan everything.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Do you see the words in Acts 17:26? Do you see boundaries mentioned. I believe just what it says. God has established boundaries in this life. Lines that man can not cross. Man operates freely of his own volition WITHIN those boundaries.

I've said this for 25 years. You've never even considered it. Like I said. I'm WAY ahead of you on this topic.

These are good questions but please accept what I say as being an answer. Stop insisting that I don't have any answers.

God plans some things. He establishes frameworks. Jeremiah was part of that framework. I mean do you really believe you are a "Jeremiah"?

 

[Studyman]

No. It is not. First, God didn't give this to you. He didn't give this to US. He gave this to Isaiah to preach to a sinful people that rejected God. Not all of the generations of humanity have known these words. So don't use "us" as being everyone.

At this fundamental level, your argument fails. Adjust your argument or concede the point.

Here is what Paul says about who God wrote the Law and Prophets to. This is Paul, not me.

1 Cor. 9: 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? "For our sakes", no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

And again;

1 Cor. 10: 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were "our examples", to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written "for our admonition", upon whom "the ends of the world are come".

And what is the purpose, "12 Wherefore let him "that thinketh he standeth" take heed lest he fall.

So it is written for men "Who think they stand".

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I don't believe the argument made by Jesus and Paul as to who God wrote the Law and Prophets for, that I have adopted, "fails" at the fundamental level. Therefore, I concede to the point that Jesus and Paul are correct, and this time it is you who are mistaken.

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the "man of God" ( NOT "a sinful people that rejected God", as you argue) may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

God is Eternal. He is not going anywhere. He is not changing. He is no different today than He was in the past. There is no necessity for Omniscience in your reference. He is simply is Eternal. He isn't going anywhere even though the future doesn't exist. Not meticulously knowing everything that will happen doesn't change the fact that He doesn't have absolute power.

Maybe God is glad that you still consent to His power, even though HE doesn't know everything, in your view. I personally don't feel qualified to make such a judgment.

If you're familiar with these arguments, you should know that the doctrine of Omnipotence stands on its own. It doesn't need any context of "all knowledge" to be a perfect representation of God's Character.

Why the need for Omniscience when God is all powerful? Do you believe that Omnipotence requires "all knowledge"? I don't. No matter what can ever possibly happen, God is all powerful.

I have no inclination nor am I qualified to make this judgment about God. I believe HE is "all knowing", based on what is written in the Holy Scriptures. If you can provide something from the Holy scriptures where it is written that God "Isn't All knowing", please post them for my consideration.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It would be so kind of you, and would help me to understand your philosophy, if you would post just a few Scriptures that support it. Then I would be able to understand where your thinking is coming from.

I have. You're reject my plausible interpretation of them. I'm get tired of you insisting that I haven't. Why such weasel words?

Again, my argument is that "Time" as we know it, is not necessary or even relevant for God. This is obvious to me because He has no beginning, and no ending. He doesn't grow old, nor is HE ever young. He has no need of time to show Him the seasons, or "Grow in knowledge". Or qualify for battle, as those 20 years and older.

I've understood your argument from the beginning of our conversation. Stop insisting that I don't understand what you're saying. I never said that God had a beginning. Quote me making that specific statement or correct your false claim.

I never said God grows old. I said Eternity is "TIME WITHOUT END".

That time exists for God. The experience of Time is different for God than it is for us.

You're advocating that time doesn't exist at all. I'm saying it does and God is unaffected in ways contrary to our experience.

 

[TomL]

The present is not without the past. The past is settled but establishes the present. "Order". Absent "Order" there is only chaos. Destruction. Desolation.

I believe that sounds familiar. Satan seeks such. God withstands Satan's desires.

but the past no longer exists

 

[praise_yeshua]

but the past no longer exists

You can make that argument and I can't deny this. However, I can't say that 100 percent believe this. I'll chalk it up to "maybe".

Just my penny there. I see arguments for and against it.

 

[Studyman]

'

I have. You're reject my plausible interpretation of them. I'm get tired of you insisting that I haven't. Why such weasel words?

I've understood your argument from the beginning of our conversation. Stop insisting that I don't understand what you're saying.

Perhaps you should read the exchange again.

So we get to the point of defining TIME.

Which I have defined repeatedly for 25 years that time is "sequence". Precept upon precept. Line upon line. Thought upon thought. All existing in order from beginning to end of a endless duration. Eternity.

This doesn't make any sense. "To end of an endless duration". Your mortal "time" ends. My mortal "Time" ends. The Sun and the moon's Time ends. The heavens and the earth we walk on and under, will come to an end. But not God. Therefore, I replied;

"But this philosophy doesn't reflect that God existed "Before" HE created "line upon line, precept upon precept", or at the very least, you imply that the heavens and earth as they exist now, are "Eternal".

It would be great if you could provide some scriptural evidence, showing how you came to this conclusion."

If you had, I would have not asked to see them.

I never said that God had a beginning. Quote me making that specific statement or correct your false claim.

Again, I never made such a claim. It's hard to correct something I never did. Perhaps you should read this exchange again as well.

"Again, my argument is that "Time" as we know it, is not necessary or even relevant for God. This is obvious "to me" because He has no beginning, and no ending. He doesn't grow old, nor is HE ever young. He has no need of time to show Him the seasons, or "Grow in knowledge". Or qualify for battle, as those 20 years and older.

But in the World that HE created there is a "beginning and an end" of Everything. I believe this, not because another voice in the garden told me, but because it is actually written;"

Can you quote me where I made that specific statement, and if you can't, then perhaps you can correct your false claim.

I never said God grows old.

No one said you did.

I said Eternity is "TIME WITHOUT END".

I don't believe God Grants immortality to humans before the "End of Time". There is a "Feast of the Lord" which speaks to this very thing, it's called "The Last Great Day". It appears, that according to Scripture's "Time" as we know it, has a beginning, and an End, just as everything else in our existence does. That is, everything but God.

That time exists for God. The experience of Time is different for God than it is for us.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

If "Time" as we know it existed before God Created the heavens and the earth, there is no evidence of it. How long did God exist before HE created the Heavens and the Earth? Can "ANY" element of "Time" measure how Long God has existed? And if I asked God, "How long have you existed", what would HE tell me? "I don't know everything"? Or would HE say;

11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

You're advocating that time doesn't exist at all.

More accurately, that God (Spirit, not of this world) exists outside the realm of Time that HE created for humans. (Flesh, in this world) This is why HE knows our end from our beginning, and we don't. ALL KNOWN LIFE is subject to "TIME" as we know it. But God is not. At some point this world, with the heavens and the earth, and everything in it, will come to an end, but God will still be here.

This is what is written, and I'm not ashamed I believe it, even if others don't.

I'm saying it does and God is unaffected in ways contrary to our experience.

Time exists, as I have said from the onset. It's just that I believe God is not subject to His own creation.