'O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!'

[Complete]

'To wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto Himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them; '
(2 Co 5:19a)

Hello there,

While talking to God yesterday evening, curled up in the warm, the words of the verse above came to my mind, and I told the Father that although I believed the words of the verse above, they were nebulous and insubstantial to me, and difficult to grasp hold of in reality. I asked that He would make them real to me. Not being able to remember the reference of the verse in my mind, I opened my Bible to search for it, and began reading at Romans 8, reading on through to chapter eleven, no longer looking for that verse in the joy of reading what was before my eyes. However, God had not forgotten, for reading down to verse fifteen of chapter eleven, I saw, this:-

'For I speak to you Gentiles,
inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles,
I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation
them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,
what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?'
(Rom 11:13)

* The words, '... if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world', dawned upon my mind, and I realised that what I was reading was the Lord's response to my words to Him. This thrilled my soul, as you can imagine, and I gave the 'more earnest heed' to the words before my eyes, reading on to the the end of Romans 12. It all became clear to me, and I rejoiced in Christ my Saviour, and echoed the words of Romans 11:33:-

'For as ye in times past have not believed God,
yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed,
that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,
that He might have mercy upon all.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!'
(Rom 11:30-33)

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Diserner]

How would you interpret that?

God showing the greatest mercy in a worst case scenario, means any response can only get better?

 

[Complete]

How would you interpret that?

God showing the greatest mercy in a worst case scenario, means any response can only get better?

Hello @dizerner,

More often than not I rejoice in what I am 'glimpsing' of the truth, as one who is seeing 'afar off', I see it as though through a glass - darkly, and rejoice in the wonder of what I am seeing of the handiwork of God, without necessarily being able to join the dots, or see the whole picture. However, one day I know that I shall know even as I am known, fully and gloriously. So I praise God, as slowly He reveals more and more, of the picture, that is, in His sight, complete and beautiful.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Complete]

How would you interpret that?

God showing the greatest mercy in a worst case scenario, means any response can only get better?

Hello @dizerner,

Would you please fill this out a little for me.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

'Therefore if any man be in Christ,
he is a new creature:
old things are passed away;
behold, all things are become new.
And all things are of God,
Who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ,
and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
.. To wit, that God was in Christ,
.... reconciling the world unto Himself,
...... not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ,
as though God did beseech you by us:
we pray you in Christ's stead,
be ye reconciled to God.
For He hath made Him to be sin for us,
Who knew no sin;
that we might be made
the righteousness of God
in Him.'
(2 Cor. 5:17-21)

* How wonderful this is!

Praise God!

 

[Diserner]

Would you please fill this out a little for me.

Well, the verse has always challenged me a bit. The way Paul writes it almost sounds like the rejection of the Jews was a good or helpful thing, and we know that's not the case. He's trying to draw out an emphasis here to help both Jews and Gentiles both feel humbled about their current position, when our natural sinful instinct is to find a source of pride in it—the Gentiles could look down on the Jews for blowing it so badly, and the Jews could look down on the Gentiles for being Jonny-come-latelies.

The idea here, is to put the emphasis back on God's faithfulness—though every man be a liar. Both Jews and Gentiles blew it, and yet God kept his Word. Even if the Jews didn't keep their end of the bargain, Jesus is still sent to the earth to keep God's covenant with Abraham, so that even the rejection and failure of the Jewish nation still resulted in the reconciliation of the world in Christ—not because the Jews are special, but because God goes the extra mile in his mercy, and still keeps his side of things.

So what does this mean? It means there is still hope for the Jews to get saved one day, and come to know their Messiah. Even now the modern day Israel is lost in the delusion of thinking they are in covenant with God when their nation is full of secularism and religious superstition. People that still think Israel is God's chosen nation better hope it's not, because then all the curses would come upon them and they'd be driven like leaves in the wind—but rather they are propitiated under general preceding grace for the lost.

 

[Complete]

Thank you,@dizerner.

 

[civic]

How have the gentiles blew it ?

They are now receiving the blessings because of Israel's/Jews hardness of heart and rejection of their Messiah. The gentiles the wild branch has been grafted in and Paul prays for their salvation. After the fulness of the gentiles has take place then they ( the Jews, Israel ) will recognize Him whom THEY have pierced in the great battle called Armageddon or in the modern vernacular world was III when all the nations come against the land of Israel. And Christ at His 2nd Coming returns to do battle, wage war on the white horse and sets up His Millennial Kingdom.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Complete]

How have the gentiles blew it ?​

​

They are now receiving the blessings because of Israel's/Jews hardness of heart and rejection of their Messiah. The gentiles the wild branch has been grafted in and Paul prays for their salvation. After the fulness of the gentiles has take place then they ( the Jews, Israel ) will recognize Him whom THEY have pierced in the great battle called Armageddon or in the modern vernacular world war III when all the nations come against the land of Israel. And Christ at His 2nd Coming returns to do battle, wage war on the white horse and sets up His Millennial Kingdom.​

​

hope this helps !!!​

Hello @civic,

I think you must be referring to what @dizerner said:-

'... He's trying to draw out an emphasis here to help both Jews and Gentiles both feel humbled about their current position, when our natural sinful instinct is to find a source of pride in it—the Gentiles could look down on the Jews for blowing it so badly, and the Jews could look down on the Gentiles for being Jonny-come-latelies. ...'

He did not say that the gentiles, 'blew it', though.

 

[Diserner]

He did not say that the gentiles, 'blew it', though.

Right.

He doesn't seem to read my posts too closely, no biggie.

 

[civic]

Hello @civic,

I think you must be referring to what @dizerner said:-

'... He's trying to draw out an emphasis here to help both Jews and Gentiles both feel humbled about their current position, when our natural sinful instinct is to find a source of pride in it—the Gentiles could look down on the Jews for blowing it so badly, and the Jews could look down on the Gentiles for being Jonny-come-latelies. ...'

He did not say that the gentiles, 'blew it', though.

The gentiles are gratefully for the Jews not prideful. I don't see anywhere in the bible that alludes to the gentiles looking at the Jews that way, do you ?

 

[Diserner]

The gentiles are gratefully for the Jews not prideful. I don't see anywhere in the bible that alludes to the gentiles looking at the Jews that way, do you ?

But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." (Rom. 11:18-19 NKJ)

 

[civic]

But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." (Rom. 11:18-19 NKJ)

ah the "if " clauses- the hypothetical, not the reality.

I see ............

 

[Diserner]

ah the "if " clauses- the hypothetical, not the reality.

I see ............

ok. you won, good job.

 

[civic]

ok. you won, good job.

its not about winning its about what is true.

 

[Complete]

The gentiles are gratefully for the Jews not prideful. I don't see anywhere in the bible that alludes to the gentiles looking at the Jews that way, do you ?

Hello @civic,

The Lord is well aware that the natural man is prone to envy and pride, and so it is not surprising that He says through Paul to the Gentile believers in Romans:-

'Boast not against the branches.
But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root,
but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then,
The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off,
and thou standest by faith.
Be not highminded, but fear:
(Rom 11:18-20)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

'For our rejoicing is this,
.. the testimony of our conscience,
.... that in simplicity and godly sincerity,
...... not with fleshly wisdom,
........ but by the grace of God,
.......... we have had our conversation (manner of life) in the world,
............ and more abundantly to you-ward.
For we write none other things unto you,
than what ye read or acknowledge;
and I trust ye shall acknowledge
even to the end;'
(2Cor. 1:12-13)

Hello again,

I quote the above verse, because, like the verse which I began with in the OP, ( i.e., 2 Cor. 5:19 ), it deals with the character of Paul's ministry: For I am seeking to understanding the context of 2 Cor. 5:19 in order to formulate in my mind what the Lord, by Paul, would have me understand concerning it :-

'And all things are of God,
Who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ,
and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
.. To wit, that God was in Christ,
.... reconciling the world unto Himself,
...... not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us (i.e., Paul and his fellow-workers)
the word of reconciliation.'
(2 Cor. 5:18-19)

* To Paul and his fellow-workers, God had committed the word of reconciliation. which was:- ' ... that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them'. Paul having been gloriously reconciled to God himself, by Jesus Christ (v.18) [Acts 9 & 26:12-18).

* So the work of reconciliation was accomplished by God, in Christ. It is a finished work. The gift of God is there to be received, by all who recognise their need of reconciliation, and approach God's throne of grace to receive it, by faith.

* So, now I must pass on to the second verse of the OP, (i.e., Rom. 11:13-15) and see what this has to tell me about the means by which reconciliation was achieved:-

'For I speak to you Gentiles,
inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles,
.. I magnify mine office:
.... If by any means I may provoke to emulation
...... them which are my flesh,
........ and might save some of them.
For if the casting away of them
be the reconciling of the world,
what shall the receiving of them be,
but life from the dead?
(Rom 11:13-15)

* In Romans 11:1-2, in answer to the question, 'Hath God cast away His people' Paul says, 'God forbid': For God had an election of grace who would respond by acknowledging the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord (11.5). God would ' ... not cast His People which He foreknew'. God foreknew those who would believe and receive the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King, these were His Elect.

* Those therefore who would be 'cast away' in this instance (11:15) were the unbelieving among Israel: not Israel in it's entirety; for there would be many who would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King, by God's grace. Yet this. 'casting away,' would not be a permanent condition, for Paul talks of the, 'receiving of them,' in (v.15 see also vv. 23-24).

* Romans 11:25-31 gives us an explanation as to how the casting away of them would be the reconciling of the world and ultimately of Israel itself as a consequence:-

The Mystery of the Salvation of Israel:-
'For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: '
as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:'
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."'
(Romans 11:25-27) ( see also:- Isa. 59:20-21 & 27:9 )

'As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God,
yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed,
that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,
that He might have mercy upon all.'
(Rom 11:28-32)

* This is the name of the thread is, 'O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!' Because this is a stroke of genius!!

' ... how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor?
Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto Him again?
For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things:
to Whom be glory for ever.
Amen.
(Rom.11:33b-36 )

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Johann]

Well, the verse has always challenged me a bit. The way Paul writes it almost sounds like the rejection of the Jews was a good or helpful thing, and we know that's not the case. He's trying to draw out an emphasis here to help both Jews and Gentiles both feel humbled about their current position, when our natural sinful instinct is to find a source of pride in it—the Gentiles could look down on the Jews for blowing it so badly, and the Jews could look down on the Gentiles for being Jonny-come-latelies.

The idea here, is to put the emphasis back on God's faithfulness—though every man be a liar. Both Jews and Gentiles blew it, and yet God kept his Word. Even if the Jews didn't keep their end of the bargain, Jesus is still sent to the earth to keep God's covenant with Abraham, so that even the rejection and failure of the Jewish nation still resulted in the reconciliation of the world in Christ—not because the Jews are special, but because God goes the extra mile in his mercy, and still keeps his side of things.

So what does this mean? It means there is still hope for the Jews to get saved one day, and come to know their Messiah. Even now the modern day Israel is lost in the delusion of thinking they are in covenant with God when their nation is full of secularism and religious superstition. People that still think Israel is God's chosen nation better hope it's not, because then all the curses would come upon them and they'd be driven like leaves in the wind—but rather they are propitiated under general preceding grace for the lost.

Well said brother

 

[Complete]

@dizerner said in reply#6:-​

... 'So what does this mean? It means there is still hope for the Jews to get saved one day, and come to know their Messiah. Even now the modern day Israel is lost in the delusion of thinking they are in covenant with God when their nation is full of secularism and religious superstition. People that still think Israel is God's chosen nation better hope it's not, because then all the curses would come upon them and they'd be driven like leaves in the wind—but rather they are propitiated under general preceding grace for the lost.​

.

Hello @dizerner,

Would you please explain the portion of your post (above) that I have highlighted. I acknowledge that at this present time Israel is still in a Loammi state, (i.e., not My People). previous Lo-ammi periods, (e,g., those recorded in the book of Judges), were times of servitude, lasting from 8-40yrs.

- in Mesopotamia (Judges 3:8) - 8yrs
- in Moab (Judges 3:14) - 18 yrs
- in Canaan (Judges 4:3) - 20yrs
- in Midian ( Judges 6:1) - 7yrs
- Philistines (Judges 13:1) - 40yrs.

* Israel's present Lo-ammi period began at Acts 28, and has already lasted over 2000 yrs. Since then heaven has been silent, and Israel's prophetic clock has stopped, as it did during the previous Lo-ammi periods, I believe.

* Looking back to the first of those previous Lo-ammi periods, was Israel no longer in covenant relationship during their period of servitude? Surely nothing could alter the fact that Israel is God's chosen nation? Though temporarily in a Lo-ammi state.

'And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD,
and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves.
Therefore the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel,
and He sold them into the hand of Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia:
and the children of Israel served Chushanrishathaim eight years.
And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD,
the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel,
who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.
And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war:
and the LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand;
and his hand prevailed against Chushanrishathaim.
And the land had rest forty years. And Othniel the son of Kenaz died.'
(Jdg 3:7-11)

* I would value your thoughts.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

https://www.bibleunderstanding.com/AN%20ALPHABETICAL%20ANALYSIS%20PART%2002.pdf

(Pages 193-201)

 

[civic]

So what does this mean? It means there is still hope for the Jews to get saved one day, and come to know their Messiah. Even now the modern day Israel is lost in the delusion of thinking they are in covenant with God when their nation is full of secularism and religious superstition. People that still think Israel is God's chosen nation better hope it's not, because then all the curses would come upon them and they'd be driven like leaves in the wind—but rather they are propitiated under general preceding grace for the lost.

You, I and every other gentile are/were no different than present day Israel.

Ephesians 2- As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

hope this helps !!!