Rather: where we caused our own imprisonment by choosing by our free will to sin against our creator GOD.
Not guilty of Adam's sin
- Thread starter TomL
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Eve had no idea what she was doing. Adam did. Adam chose Eve. Adam sought to save Eve. "Bone of my Bone. Flesh of my flesh".
I'll go so far as to say that Adam basically said in his actions. "Were Eve goes, I will go."
It is a beautiful allegory seen through the lives of every husband and wife that has ever embraced each for a life. The Scriptures are wonderful. Such is found in the Book of Ruth. Ruth declares her love of Boaz. Her "kinsman redeemer".
It is the love of God written in our very lives from birth. Our minds are sponges. Endless consuming information and searching for meaning. This alone is a witness to the goodness and kindness of God. Benevolence beyond our current state of self corruption.
Rth 1:16 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following thee; for whithersoever thou goest, I will go, and wheresoever thou lodgest, I will lodge; thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God.
Rth 1:17 And wherever thou diest, I will die, and there will I be buried: the Lord do so to me, and more also, if I leave thee, for death only shall divide between me and thee.
Just how many of you actually believe that it would have been best if Adam just abandoned Eve to her judgement?
e v e
Well-known member
if Adam had not betrayed God, neither of them would be lost... as adam was responsible for her....
ImCo,
though a real woman, Eve is also the type for all the elect (those who chose to accept YHWH's claims to be our GOD and the only saviour from sin) who chose to listen to the reprobate's (those who repudiated YHWH's claims, putting their faith in HIM being a liar and therefore a false god) and rejected HIS call for all HIS elect to come out from among the reprobate so they could be damned, thus becoming a sinner herself and needing the election promise of salvation fulfilled in herself.
Adam, though a real man, is also the type for all the elect who did not trust GOD's promise of mercy for their loved ones who had become sinful by their free will decision to rebel against the call for the damnation of the the reprobate, (ie, the Eves) and so decided to join them in their sin so as to see them through their punishment.
As you suggest, Adams followed where the one they loved, the Eves, decided to go...into sin.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
How did Adam betray God. Eve first sinned. Eve's sin was one of ignorance.
That's your opinion. I do not agree
e v e
Well-known member
Adam was responsible and had dominion and was her covering. She was not simply a loose cannon..
he allowed her to be alone and to be spoken by the serpent.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
So you believe Adam should have been there?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I'm going to propose that you reconsider this position. I'll give an alternative point of view......
I'll start by asking you how mature do you believe Adam was? Did Adam have the knowledge that God has?
e v e
Well-known member
since female is the inside of male, as in male being her protector and covering, yes, he should have...
but why did he leave her alone, please tell me?
e v e
Well-known member
pondering.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Adam wasn't everywhere at the same time. Adam was finite. He probably had no choice but the leave her. The same is true now. I would prefer to be with my wife right now. I don't have the luxury of being everywhere at the same time.
Good morning praise_yeshua,
imCo, before the foundation of the world, before everyone could make a free will decision that would set their fates for all eternity, we had to all have a complete maturity so probably we had grown into a society used to all the things that a spirit (in a situation lacking all physicality) could partake and enjoy such as logic, music, poetry etc.
GOD would never ask anyone who could not understand HIM to make a faith based decision that would affect their whole future.
Jesus did not display His status as the Son of God until into His ministry and I see this as reflecting GOD letting us grow in maturity, our likes and dislikes etc before HE proclaimed to HIS creation HIS gospel which includes the reality of election and reprobation, based upon HIS revelation that HE was our creator GOD. I suggest that this is hinted at in the word proclamation found in Col 1:23 about HIS gospel as already having been heard by every person under heaven which can't be true if some were not yet created but to be created eons later.
I find the latter part of Romans 1 to be teaching that everyone has had access to the whole truth but they believe (accept as true) lies because they love sin more than the truth. 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
No one is ignorant of the truth of who YHWH is nor of the gospel because everyone has seen the proof: 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.
25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise! Amen.
Therefore to properly respond to such a revelation, everyone had to be fully mature in understanding and any apparent lessening of this understanding by a sinner on earth reflects their wilful sinfulness, not a lack of their maturity.
So Adam was fully mature when he chose faith in YHWH and became elect but in the garden as a sinner, he was debased by sin, not immature.
Also, no one in creation has all the knowledge GOD has...
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I'm glad you agree that Adam didn't know everything. However, I'm going to try and challenge you on your understanding concerning maturity. I do believe that Adam understood that Eve's chose would separate her from him. Adam loved her. I believe this is actually indicated in how Adam responded. "The women you gave me"...... is an indication that Adam was making the argument basically to God along the lines of.... "What did you expect me to do. You gave her to me".
How could Adam lose what he loved so dearly?
Relative to maturity, We know that Christ asked the Father to "forgive them, they know not what they do" while he was suffering on the Cross.
There is a difference between unbelief and being willing ignorant but drawing distinct lines is difficult. Paul appealed to how he received mercy because he did such things in unbelief.
Unbelief is ignorance. Yet where do we find and establish "willing ignorance"????
Where do we draw the line between unbelief that damns and unbelief that obtains mercy? Please don't insist that such is only left to God. There "things" here to be reasoned. I know what I believe. Please share your thoughts.
There is nothing less than the message of the Gospel that changes ignorance to the point of either obtaining mercy or establishing condemnation.
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The answer lies not in the worse nature of some sin over other sins but in the relationship some people had with YHWH and others refused.
When we were asked to chose to put our faith in YHWH's claims about reality (the full gospel) or to reject them, all of creation was divided into two broad groups: 1. those who by their free will accepted HIS claims to be true and who put their faith, their unproven hope, in HIM as their LORD and saviour from any sin and
2. those who chose by their free will to put their faith, their unproven hope in the belief HE was a liar and as a liar, a false god.
Those who freely chose to put their faith and trust in HIM received HIS promise of salvation called election if they should ever choose to become sinful in HIS sight.
Those who by their free will decided to put their faith, their unproven hope in HIM being a liar and a false god became reprobate on the spot, unable to ever change their minds because of the enslaving power of sin and by locking out YHWH from ever being involved in their salvation by their free will decision to repudiate HIM as LORD and saviour forever...this unbelief damned them forever.
But Jn 3:18 speaks of sinful believers and that their sin never condemns them... so this refers to the promise of election given for their first free will choice made when innocent before they ever sinned. But what sin might they have fallen to?
I can imagine that some folk had the idea that now that they were elect and under the promise of salvation they might as well go their own way and ignore YHWH and HIS commands, not knowing how this promise would be fulfilled by having to live in sin with the reprobate Matt 13:27-30 until they learned to reject sinfulness by learning the suffering sin causes as is mentioned in Heb 12:1-5.
Another probable reason was that some of the elect really considered that the damnation of the reprobate was too harsh, not worthy of a GOD who was love especially by not giving them a chance to repent. These were the Eves, who idolized their friends who had chosen to repudiate HIM above YHWH so they stood against HIS call for their damnation, becoming sinful in HIS sight.*
Then there were the Adams who could not come to trust their now sinful lovers to GOD's tender mercies and so joined the Eves in rebelling against HIS commands about the damnation of the reprobate, joining them in their sinfulness.
It was due to the nature of our first choice that caused us to come under the promise of salvation or to force GOD to never be involved in their salvation so certain were they their belief was true.
*Aside:
Have you ever considered why Eve treated the serpent like a mentor or teacher if this was the first time she ever met him?
Ever wondered why if GOD loved Eve so much and hated evil so much then why did HE not warn her about the serpent's perfidy or if HE did warn her, why did she ignore HIM and give the serpent cedence?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I see a gap or two in your conclusions. There are at least two things that make a difference that you didn't include in your summary.
1. Knowledge
2. Culpability
There are often reasons that unbelief "crosses over" to unbelief that damns.
Knowledge of Jesus Christ is required. It is the responsibility of mankind to share the knowledge of Jesus Christ with one another. It begins with the family. Abraham taught his children. He was successful. Somewhere along time, the descendants of Abraham abandoned the knowledge of God. This "pattern" repeats itself throughout history. Men are culpable in the fact that others do not know God. At every turn, man abandons his responsibilities and blames God.
I see issue a little differently. We have to ask ourselves, why was the serpent there at all?
As far as Eve accepting the narrative of the serpent, I believe all she needed a little "nudge". See already wanted to fruit. We want to experience what we are told not to do. Nothing motivates us more than the words "don't do that"......
We insist upon experience things for ourselves. There is a good conversation to have here. I hope we can get there.....
civic
Well-known member
Genesis 3
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
Some different views below from Got ?
The Bible notes that Eve was the first to eat the fruit from the tree after being deceived by the serpent. Where was Adam during that time? Was he with Eve when she and the serpent were conversing?
Genesis 3:6 says, “So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.” The key phrase, in consideration of our question, is “who was with her.” Traditional Jewish interpretation takes this phrase to mean that Adam was with Eve the whole time she was being tempted and that he heard the whole conversation.
This understanding helps to explain the emphasis on “Adam’s sin” in the New Testament (Romans 5:12). Adam was created first and placed in the Garden of Eden to care for it along with Eve. Adam then actively participated in breaking the one prohibition God had given him. If Adam had not been present when Eve spoke with the serpent, it would be more difficult to understand why the first sin is emphasized as being Adam’s.
Another view is that the phrase “who was with her” simply means that Adam was with Eve when she offered him the fruit. In other words, Eve heard the serpent’s lies, believed they were the truth, and ate the fruit. Then she found her husband, and once she had him “with her,” she gave him the fruit, too.
This understanding would explain why Adam did not intervene in the serpent’s deception of Eve and why the New Testament insists that Eve was “deceived” but Adam was not (1 Timothy 2:14). The fact that death came through Adam’s sin instead of Eve’s is explained by the idea that the federal headship of mankind was vested in Adam, as the one first created (1 Timothy 2:13).
Of course, there is a third view, that Adam was in the vicinity of the tree while Eve was being tempted. He was near enough to still be considered “with” his wife, yet far enough away not to hear the conversation.
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Just for fun...
there was a tribe found in the upper Amazon that had apparently no idea of a god or God like being at all. None.
Are they all damned? Seems a bit harsh, right?
If they are not damned for their ignorance, and they learn about Christ are they then suddenly damned for ignoring Him? As the old Inuit elder is supposed to have asked: "Why did you tell us about Him then and bring damnation to us?"
ImCo...
I think that before YHWH formalized HIS claims by the proclamation to all of creation as per Col 1:23, HE had brought us to the maturity of a strong understanding of what the theological possibilities were for our creation...
Those who put their faith in HIM as their saviour still thought that HE could be wrong about damnation and the warnings about the incredibly enslaving, addicting, power of sin. To expose their sinful failings to trust HIM fully in all things, HE allowed us all to make our own free will decisions about HIS loving holiness in the face of HIS call for us to come out from the reprobate so they could be damned... Many thought that to stand against the damnation of another was the loving thing to do and so how could it be a sin?
Earth was chosen as the prison planet for all sinners, reprobate and elect alike, Matt 13:27-30 with Matt 13:36-39, with a rehab centre for the sinful elect to open their eyes to their sinfulness to bring them to holiness and to finally come out from among them and touch not their uncean ways and ideas, 2 Corinthians 6:17.
The idea of giving the innocuous order to not eat a fruit was not to damn them but to open their eyes to their sinful acceptance of the serpent which worked just as HE planned for it to work.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
That tribe in the Amazon.... where did they come from? They came from "fathers" that abandoned God. The idea that our Eternity is based solely upon our own actions is contrary to fact.
We can escape through Jesus Christ but I can't find a demand where all men of all generations must be given a chance to hear the Gospel. Whether or not they do, is dependent upon us. We are our brother's keeper.
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