Not guilty of Adam's sin

[101G]

God did not desire man live in a sinful state forever

101G started not to answer, but help is needed. did the verse or 101G say "God did not desire man live in a sinful state forever". is this what you think the scriptures say here, or 101G is saying? is so you're a lost cause, and this reply is a waste of time.

101G.

 

[101G]

To all,
addressing the OP, the Lord Jesus, God's OWN ARM stop sin in it's track on the cross. men sin now because they want to sin. at the cross, the Garden was reset.... 2.0 for all men. when born, we're innocent, sin is a learned behavior, just as anything else. and to overcome our sin.... we learn not to, and we have help to overcome our sins.... thank God for the NT.

101G.

 

[TomL]

101G started not to answer, but help is needed. did the verse or 101G say "God did not desire man live in a sinful state forever". is this what you think the scriptures say here, or 101G is saying? is so you're a lost cause, and this reply is a waste of time.

101G.

Apparently you are in need of help

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

God subjected man to death but in hope

Genesis 3:22–24 (KJV 1900) — 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

20. For the creature. The renewed creature; the Christian mind. This is given as a reason for its aspiring to the full privileges of adoption, that the present state is not one of choice, or one which is preferred, but one to which it has been subjected for wise reasons by God.
Subject to vanity. The word “subject to” means placed in such a state; subjected to it by the appointment of another, as a soldier has his rank and place assigned him in an army. The word vanity here (ματαιότης) is descriptive of the present condition of the Christian, as frail and dying; as exposed to trials, temptations, and cares; as in the midst of conflicts, and of a world which may be emphatically pronounced vanity. More or less, the Christian is brought under this influence; his joys are marred; his peace is discomposed; his affections wander; his life is a life of vanity and vexation.
Not willingly. Not voluntarily. It is not a matter of choice. It is not that which is congenial to his renewed nature. That would aspire to perfect holiness and peace. But this subjection is one that is contrary to it, and from which he desires to be delivered. This describes substantially the same condition as chap. 7:15–24.
But by reason. By him (διὰ). It is the appointment of God, who has chosen to place his people in this condition; and who for wise purposes retains them in it.


Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Romans (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 184–185.

 

[101G]

20. For the creature. The renewed creature; the Christian mind. This is given as a reason for its aspiring to the full privileges of adoption, that the present state is not one of choice, or one which is preferred, but one to which it has been subjected for wise reasons by God.

Just one question by scripture, on your above statement. Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."

now the question, "is God one person, or two persons, or three persons?" your answer will determine if your above statement is true or not. .... (smile) YIKES!.

101G

 

[e v e]

Sounds gnostic

sounds is not the same as IS.

 

[e v e]

who said that? let's see what the bible say. Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope," Romans 8:21 "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." Romans 8:23 "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Romans 8:24 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" Romans 8:25 "But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it."

101G.

so sinning did not cause a cosmological change?

Example:
we left His paradise
no longer in the perfect home for us.

Since we were the center of His creation, was it not mutilated by our absence?

Think please. Where are we now. How could we not be in a different physicality since now these bodies perish.

 

[Behold]

Men are judged for their own sin not Adams

Sin entered the world through Adam, and we are all of Adam.
His fallen nature, is the reason you have sinned.
His sin is why we all are separated from God as "all have sinned".

Every person is "born in sin" and to be ETERNALLY rescued from that is to be "Born AGAIN" out of it.

So, to understand Salvation, is to understand that Jesus the 2nd Adam, came to restore to us what Adam the 1st, lost for us all.
Adam's sin is the fall of us all, and Jesus's Cross is the Way back to what Adam had with God before he lost it for us all.

= Spiritual Union with God.

Being BORN.. again, is to be restored into Spiritual Union with God that Adam lost for us all.

 

[TomL]

Sin entered the world through Adam, and we are all of Adam.
His fallen nature, is the reason you have sinned.
His sin is why we all are separated from God as "all have sinned".

Every person is "born in sin" and to be ETERNALLY rescued from that is to be "Born AGAIN" out of it.

So, to understand Salvation, is to understand that Jesus the 2nd Adam, came to restore to us what Adam the 1st, lost for us all.
Adam's sin is the fall of us all, and Jesus's Cross is the Way back to what Adam had with God before he lost it for us all.

= Spiritual Union with God.

Being BORN.. again, is to be restored into Spiritual Union with God that Adam lost for us all.

The scriptures I quoted show we are not born guilty

 

[TomL]

sounds is not the same as IS.

It is.

 

[TedT]

Men are judged for their own sin not Adams

Yes indeed

I also agree most wholeheartedly - the GOD who IS love would never create HIS people in someone else's sinfulness and under the consequences of someone else's sin.

But then I found a hole in my bucket when I read that death and its attenuated suffering is the wages for sin and NOT just a consequence for being human which suggests only a sinner dies...yet we have the idea that newly created people still in the womb are innocent, not guilty of any sin yet, which sets the pinwheel of interpretation spinning in the wind.

 

[TomL]

I also agree most wholeheartedly - the GOD who IS love would never create HIS people in someone else's sinfulness and under the consequences of someone else's sin.

But then I found a hole in my bucket when I read that death and its attenuated suffering is the wages for sin and NOT just a consequence for being human which suggests only a sinner dies...yet we have the idea that newly created people still in the womb are innocent, not guilty of any sin yet, which sets the pinwheel of interpretation spinning in the wind.

Sins wages effect even those who did not sin a particular sin

The children often inherit consequences from the sins of their parents but that does not make them guilty

 

[e v e]

Sin entered the world through Adam, and we are all of Adam.
His fallen nature, is the reason you have sinned.
His sin is why we all are separated from God as "all have sinned".

Every person is "born in sin" and to be ETERNALLY rescued from that is to be "Born AGAIN" out of it.

So, to understand Salvation, is to understand that Jesus the 2nd Adam, came to restore to us what Adam the 1st, lost for us all.
Adam's sin is the fall of us all, and Jesus's Cross is the Way back to what Adam had with God before he lost it for us all.

= Spiritual Union with God.

Being BORN.. again, is to be restored into Spiritual Union with God that Adam lost for us all.

being born again will be at rapture
when His souls are restored to our original body and paradise..

 

[e v e]

Sins wages effect even those who did not sin a particular sin

The children often inherit consequences from the sins of their parents but that does not make them guilty

this reality around us is the consequence..
this earth and body

 

[e v e]

It is.

in your opinion

 

[e v e]

Sounds gnostic

it's easy to label things .. i know.

 

[TedT]

Sins wages effect even those who did not sin a particular sin

True but I contend that sin wages can only affect a sinner, not someone who is not a sinner. Iow, the sinless are NOT subject to the wages of sin.

Since infants die, the wage for sin, it proves they must be sinful, forcing the question of how did they get to be sinful if they were just newly created???

I deny that they were forced by GOD to be sinful by HM creating them in Adam's sin because I believe that the only way a person can become a sinner is by making a true free will decision to go against GOD's command or against HIS claims to be our GOD.

This supports the hypothesis that they were created before the foundation of the world, made their true faith decision for or against HIM by their free will during this time and then saw the creation, the foundation of the world as attested most strongly in Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20.

 

[e v e]

this dungeon earth and this body are sin nature
and what adam caused.

 

[TomL]

True but I contend that sin wages can only affect a sinner, not someone who is not a sinner. Iow, the sinless are NOT subject to the wages of sin.

Since infants die, the wage for sin, it proves they must be sinful, forcing the question of how did they get to be sinful if they were just newly created???

I deny that they were forced by GOD to be sinful by HM creating them in Adam's sin because I believe that the only way a person can become a sinner is by making a true free will decision to go against GOD's command or against HIS claims to be our GOD.

This supports the hypothesis that they were created before the foundation of the world, made their true faith decision for or against HIM by their free will during this time and then saw the creation, the foundation of the world as attested most strongly in Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20.

You may contend that but even reality shows the innocent are effected by the actions of the guilty

 

[e v e]

we are going soon to meet Christ upon the clouds
and be free of this insane dungeon earth...
where the evil realm imprisoned us...

 

[TedT]

You may contend that but even reality shows the innocent are effected by the actions of the guilty

Still missing the point.

The words 'the innocent are effected by the actions of the guilty' do not mean the same thing as saying that the wages of sin can somehow be applied to or laid upon a non-sinner, an innocent.